God's own divine Passion, the missing shards, and Adonalsium

[Benkinsky he/him]

There's been a few "sorting the shards into quadrants" "sorting the shards into quadrants and trying to find matching Dawnshards" and similar posts recently, and while I absolutely love reading those, this post is here for less linear thoughts about Adonalsium and the missing shards, but missing shards nonetheless. Let's stop with the preambling and get to what I want to get to:

ODIUM and what it means for ADONALSIUM.

Let's start by looking at one of the (imho) coolest quote of all the cosmere:

Quote

While I mourn for the great suffering Rayse has caused, I do not believe we could hope for a better outcome than this. He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

Emphasis mine. Source: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Words_of_Radiance/Epigraphs#Chapter_71. Refresher: this is from one of the letters in reply to Hoid, so probably from either a shard or another old, cosmere-aware figure like Frost. So, for the sake of argument, let's assume what they write can be treated as fact.

This quote has stuck with me, among others because it makes Odium such an interesting foe and such a cool idea: The hatred of a God, without all the rest of God.

I want to talk about this quote some more. Let's reiterate three things:

1. Adonalisum was shattered into 16 pieces. As far as we know, there's no Debris or anything like that left. They're 16 pieces of a whole. Those could have been split up differently, but weren't. It's not a little god with 1/16th of all of Adonalsiums properties, but with ALL of 1 of 16 properties (or 2, in Harmonys case).

2. Rayse Odium calls himself Passion and sais that that's what they are. Passion. Emotion. He even tells Dalinar that he's the only one of the gods that understands human emotion, that knows it.

3. Despite this, everyone else more or less agrees that Odium is first and foremost Hatred. The way he is described in text and in universe is as seething, hating, hot and burning and hateful.

 

Now, what am I trying to say:

What does this mean for Adonalsium?

Well, one of multiple things. That depends on what the last two shards are. We know almost nothing about Adonalsium, yet, sadly. But here's my thoughts, which I hope to make understandable:

I really hope atleast one of the last two shards is an emotion.

Something like "Love" is a common guess, but even just something like "Care" or "Charity" (which the ancient greeks would argue was one of multiple forms of love anyway).

Seriously. Because if there isn't another Emotion-Shard, then Rayse/Passion is right. In that it isn't just Hate, but all emotions/passions. Or rather, all the emotions/passions Adonalsium was capable of.

It's why I refer to it as Passion in the title of this post. Let's look at the quote about it again:

Quote

He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

Virtues. Not "other emotions." Now, we can argue that Virtues are an emotional thing, but I think the semantics are clear. The letter doesn't say "without the other emotions." or, the very clear thing many religions irl share: "His Love"

There's a few conclusion to be drawn from this, and I will list those in a second, but I want to first look at the shards again to underline this.

Virtues: Honor, Autonomy, Ambition, Mercy, Valor, (Wisdom, Prudence)

Divine Properties: Endowment, Dominion, Devotion, maybe Cultivation?

Forces of Creation/Nature: Preservation, Ruin, maybe Cultivation?

Uh, no idea: Whimsy, Invention.

To be clear: This isn't supposed to be a sorting or anything like that. I don't think this is how the shards are grouped or even if they are grouped. The point of this list is to drive home the point that none of these are emotions. There sure are some Virtues, especially Honor and Mercy and Wisdom stand out as ones that sound like they would give Odium much needed context. But, again, none of these are emotions. (Is bravery an emotion? I wouldn't say so. Semantics, maybe)

 

This leads me to a few possible conclusions:

1: One of the two so far unknown shards is also about emotions. Especially "Love" or one of its derivatives would of course fit a God the way we on earth imagine it well, and would make a good counter to Odium. I know there aren't clear pairs, but another shard of emotion would mean Adonalsium had atleast two different distinct emotions or emotional states. Because otherwise...

2a: (Odium is the only Emotion Shard and Rayse is lying about Odium = Passion) Adonalsium was a deeply hateful being. If it was shattered into 16 Aspects of its being, and only one of them is emotion, and that is pure Odium, Adonalsium must have been hateful in the same fulfilling, allencompassing way that Odium is. If Odium is "Just Adonalsiums Hatred without The Rest" and none of "The Rest" are emotions, then Adonalsium felt basically the same way that Odium does. Hate with a hint of Anger for a rare change. Even the better version of this isn't much better:

2b: (Odium is the only Emotion Shard and Rayse is right about Odium = Passion) Adonalsium was a deeply hateful being anyway. If Odium is the only emotion shard, and is not "God's own Divine Hatred" but rather "God's own Divine complex emotions", then well, Adonalsiums complex emotions must still have been hugely dominated by Hate.

3: Odium is all emotion that Adonalsium could feel and just got the way it is after the Shattering. Maybe "God's Divine Passions/Emotions" is up to interpretation the way Ruin could be slow decay or active Catastrophes, and it got interpreted into Odium. Then again, it sounds like Odium went on his killing spree pretty quickly after the Shattering, so it's not like he started out loving and jolly and became bitter and hateful with lots of time.

(4: Adonalisum wasn't a being in the same way that we humans are, its/their emotional state is not really understandable with human understanding of emotion. We don't even know if Adonalsium had a person/vessel/personality/anything, for all we know it could have been a machine or mechanism or a force of nature more than an entity. Does a poisonous plant feel hate when it kills you for eating it? Does a storm, or a robot that was tasked to protect something when it hurts those that try to interfere with its task? Maybe Adonalsium didn't feel much, so much of what it was was Creation, and to argue about Adonalsiums Emotional landscape is futile? The only things we can assume to know are that It experienced bravery, it showed mercy, it cultivated, preserved, and destroyed things, it dominated and was devoted, it invented, it was whimsical, it wanted to survive, it was ambitious, it was autonomous, it endowed things, and: It felt Hate/it hated.)

 

I personally hope for the former for the sake of our heroes and everyone in the cosmere, but let's continue the thoughts based on 2a and 2b for now, because there's some thought that might make these ones more likely.

Whether or not Rayse was right is kind of irrelevant. Whether or not Adonalsium felt only Odium or Passion, if that 16th of Adonalsium that was/is Passion was the way back then it is now, well, Adonalsiums emotional landscape was a bad one. Even with the "context", as in "the virtues that gave it context", it doesn't paint the nices picture of the Cosmere's old God. If it's Wisdom keeping Adonalsiums Hate in check then that sounds like they came to the conclusions it's not smart to destroy everything. If it's Honor, then Adonalsiums is sparing lives because of some Oaths or feeling of duty. Cool, I guess. Not kindness, though. Mercy is the biggest candidate for a counterweight, but that to me has bully-vibes still. "I want to kill you tbh but I'm sparing you because I'm so mercyfull" isn't exactly kind either, is it?

If that's what Adonalsium was right, then no wonder that a group of people came to conclusion it had to be destroyed.

(And if Rayse was an evil leaning person before the Shattering, then no wonder he wanted that Shard in particular. Sounds like one of the few they'd be sure to exist afterwards.)

Long, long post. If you read this far, thanks for sticking with it. I'm intrigued if other people thing my argument is conclusive at all, an what your thoughts about this are.

Will we get another Emotion Shard? Will we not, and Adonalsium was very hateful? Is it futile to imagine Adonalsiums Emotions the way neurotypical Human Emotions work? Or another possible answer?

 

 

 

[Frustration he/him]

12 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

I really hope atleast one of the last two shards is an emotion.

Something like "Love" is a common guess, but even just something like "Care" or "Charity" (which the ancient greeks would argue was one of multiple forms of love anyway).

Seriously. Because if there isn't another Emotion-Shard, then Rayse/Passion is right. In that it isn't just Hate, but all emotions/passions. Or rather, all the emotions/passions Adonalsium was capable of.

Devotion, Ambition, and Whimsy all have emotional natures to them. Devotion even being tied to love.

Ruin also mentions Passion in a significant way.

[CryoZenith he/him]

22 minutes ago, Benkinsky said:

2. Rayse Odium calls himself Passion and sais that that's what they are. Passion. Emotion. He even tells Dalinar that he's the only one of the gods that understands human emotion, that knows it.

The question here is whether Rayse is talking relative to all the other Shards, or only relative to Honor and Cultivation. So if Odium says that he understands human emotion to a vastly superior extent than Honor and Cultivation, that's a pretty plausible and easy buy. If instead he says he understands human emotion to a vastly superior extent to all the other 15 Shards... that is genuinely interesting, yes.

It's been years since I read that Dalinar-Rayse sequence so I can't remember the exact wording to say which of the two was more strongly implied, but I will reread and return to you.

Edited February 9, 2022 by CryoZenith

[Nnatel she/her]

I must say I very much like your take on at least three levels: I love this quote about Odium, it pretty much sums up my interpretation of this Shard since I read that; I have been trying to figure out more emotional (more or less, for lack of a better word I can currently think of) Shards - I've been trying to get a full quadrant of Shard connected to feelings, but I am not getting into that here; and lastly, my head hurts from thinking about trying to sort the existing Shards so this is a very nice topic that is not so frustrating. (Also, all the talk of the Shards has finally motivated me to come back on the forums and even write something so that's nice, too.)

 

Anyway, being done with this not really necessary beginning.

I find your take really interesting as I have never considered the possibility that Odium is actually better at feeling human emotions that any other Shard. I believed it always to be a thing Rayse says not necessarily even believing that himself. Maybe because I just assumed there are other Shards representing emotions. This may come from an really old WoB that I had in the back of my head:

Quote

Puck (paraphrased)

Does Aona equal Love or Compassion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You have it, it's just a synonym there. You basically have it

Puck (paraphrased)

Does Skai equal Devotion or Order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You're not on there. But you are on on the first one [Aona].

Vericon 2011 (March 19, 2011)

If this interpretation is still valid - one of the Shards you suggested already exists. (But honestly I am wondering if this is not too old to base a theory on because a lot of Brandon's interpretations could have changed since 2011). But anyway Devotion, and also Whimsy, are really hard to talk about without mentioning emotions.

I will focus on this part of your theory because this feels the most correct, if I can say so.

4 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

3: Odium is all emotion that Adonalsium could feel and just got the way it is after the Shattering. Maybe "God's Divine Passions/Emotions" is up to interpretation the way Ruin could be slow decay or active Catastrophes, and it got interpreted into Odium. Then again, it sounds like Odium went on his killing spree pretty quickly after the Shattering, so it's not like he started out loving and jolly and became bitter and hateful with lots of time.

There is also one thing I would like to add to this point:
I can see a world where the actual Shard is all emotions Adonalsium had but the Odium thing happened because of Rayse. There is a mention in one of the letters, I think, that he wasn't a pleasant men, to put it nicely, as I don't remember the exact quote and I don't have a book to actually check it. I am not sure if I actually like it, I think I would prefer them to get split up between different Shards, at least that sound more likely to happen IMO.

But on the other hand there is also a quote from RoW:

Quote

Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. [RoW 113]

This lists noticeably more emotions that hatred. But it does not mention love, which would go quite well with this attribute (and I mean it as in 'godly' attribute of Adonalsium) being a part of Devotion's Intent. It also leaves me wondering which other emotions are lacking.
Sadness is definitely one of them. I could see it being part of Mercy, in a way. Same with compassion.
Happiness is one of the ones I would consider important but I don't have a good suggestion for a Shard it could be a part of.
Curiosity might be another, this one fits Whimsy for me.
Actually, the same might be true for something like boredom. This feels like a basic that is needed to be whimsical.
Is determination even an emotion? I am not sure but it definitely is Ambition.
I am trying to figure out more emotions that could be listed and I am getting stuck. So I am going to end the list here.

 

So anyway, I guess I came to a conclusion that Odium is the only Shard we currently know that is purely made from Adonalsium's emotions but there are some emotional attributes that can be easily ascribed to Shards we already know and that definitely are not part of Odium. That is not necessarily what I wanted to write but at some point I remembered the RoW quote and it happened. I like it a lot actually. Does somebody agree? Or maybe you can add more emotions or come up with a Shard that goes well with happiness?

PS. I can't believe this actually got me to search for this chapter of RoW. I hate it as because it makes me terrified for future books.

[CryoZenith he/him]

1 hour ago, Nnatel said:

Does somebody agree? Or maybe you can add more emotions or come up with a Shard that goes well with happiness?

I don't know if I agree with 100% of your perspective (motivation/drive is arguably not an emotion, and curiosity feels more like an Invention thing than a Whimsy thing; there's also the WoB where Brandon said that Hoid would be a horrible vessel for Whimsy, and Hoid is a pretty curious lad) but the WoB about Devotion is definitely relevant here, that's a pretty safe clue that there's some emotion to the Intent of Devotion, so not all emotion is of Odium.

This makes me feel even more confident in my hypothesis that when Odium was telling Dalinar that he understands human emotion to a greater extent than other shards, he was talking about Honor and Cultivation, not about all other 15.

Edited February 10, 2022 by CryoZenith

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

Joy. Some form of Divine Joy in Creation(maybe Cultivation?)

[cometaryorbit]

9 hours ago, Benkinsky said:

Something like "Love" is a common guess, but even just something like "Care" or "Charity" (which the ancient greeks would argue was one of multiple forms of love anyway).

I think Love-in-the-broader-sense-of-caring (as opposed to specifically romantic love) is what Devotion is. It's probably the closest thing to a direct opposite to Odium. (Though I really don't think Shards are generally paired as direct opposites.)

I think Odium is probably a bit broader than just hate, from Dalinar's experience of perceiving Odium, but I think it's limited to "aggressive" emotions. Odium is described with burning imagery repeatedly. It's inflaming emotions, conflict-type ones, self vs others. There's a comment in ROW that the power wants conflict and opposition even when Rayse doesn't. I'd say it incudes fear and rage, but not courage (Valor); lust, but not love (Devotion).

EDIT: However, I do think it's not a safe assumption that Adonalsium was a Christian-style omnibenevolent omnipotent omniscient deity, given that it was Shattered violently by others, which implies a limited being. It might be something more like the Gnostic concept of the demiurge (creator of the known universe but not the ultimate source of everything, either intentionally malevolent or introducing flaws into the universe by its ignorance depending on the version).

Edited February 10, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Benkinsky he/him]

12 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

This makes me feel even more confident in my hypothesis that when Odium was telling Dalinar that he understands human emotion to a greater extent than other shards, he was talking about Honor and Cultivation, not about all other 15.

that's a very valid hypothesis. Compared to Honor and Cultivation, it very surely is much more understanding of Emotion

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I do think it's not a safe assumption that Adonalsium was a Christian-style omnibenevolent omnipotent omniscient deity, given that it was Shattered violently by others, which implies a limited being. It might be something more like the Gnostic concept of the demiurge

I find Gnosticism super interesting personally, so yeah, I could see something like that. From what we know, Adonalsium created the Cosmere, which is a local cluster, but we don't know about the rest of the universe anyway.