A flawed assumption

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Summary: Not every Singer and Singer community served Odium during the Desolations, and not every human or human community served Honour and Cultivation. It was as the war progressed and more and more humans and Singers on both sides saw ALL members of the other species as agents of their enemies the more that became a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

I was reading the thread on why the Knights Radiant seem stronger than the Fused, and the topic came up about how a Skybreaker could have or should have gone to the Singer cities and villages and wiped them all out, ending the threat forever. Putting aside how evil that would be, I think that actually happened. I think early Surgebinders - before Ishar forced order upon them - were simply individuals who used the power of the Surges however they and their spren saw fit, and if they thought all Singers were the enemy, well ...

We have to remember a few key facts:

• Originally Odium came along with the humans, and at least a few humans followed him
• Honour and Cultivation were for the Singers before humans arrived, and the Singers knew nothing of Odium
• At some point Honour and Cultivation became the deities of the humans on Roshar, and Odium became the deity to the Singers
  • Or, perhaps, each was only the deity to most of their future aligned peoples ...
• This changeover couldn't have happened all at once.

I have previously speculated on how the Desolations started (see here) and I would like to expand on that. I think, as the initial conflict wore on, as spren started to side more with humans to protect them, some took extreme action. I think, at the start, humans and Singers were allies and enemies of both sides of the conflict, that there were Singers who cared for and protected humans (including Singers who would eventually go on to merge their bloodlines with humans and produce Horneaters and Herdazians), and possibly humans sympathetic to the attacked Singers (assuming Singers were the initial victims) or who formed their own faction (if humans were the initial aggressors). Not every human and not every Singer was on each binary side of this conflict, and that is also assuming it was a conflict with only two main sides. We know from Dalinar's visions (see Oathbringer chapter 38, Broken People, to see a vision of humans fighting humans) that humans were among the enemies of the Knights Radiant during at least one Desolation, and we know some Singers and humans tried to escape the conflict entirely and become one people, which they did. I think, therefore, it is highly likely that Desolations CAN'T be reduced simply to a human vs Singer war, but rather a pro-human civilisation and an anti-human civilisation side, and possibly a human-supremacist side as well, at least at the start. Thus attacks on all Singers, even or especially neutral Singers, may have occurred during some Desolations, including when Surgebinding become common and before the Orders were formed, and this helped escalate the war and make it even more polarised. Add to the fact that it could be that some friendly Singer communities became subverted by possession by the Fused if they were tricked into it, and this could add a greater tragedy.

 

So, I think the idea that the war was originally just Singer vs human is likely incorrect, and the attitudes of some Singers and humans who believed it was entirely a human-Singer war were the ones who eventually made it that way, but until then humanity wasn't alone, it has Singer allies, and Odium's forces either were one force that slowly changed composition from humans to Singers, or were two forces that, when the human side was fully destroyed, became entirely Singer. Either way, I think the idea that all Singers supported Odium in the Last Desolation, regardless of any Desolations before, is a mistaken one, just as there were humans who sided with Odium during the Desolations prior.

[Frustration]

That did happen

Spoiler

Stormlightning

Were there Radiants on the Voidbringers' side in ancient Desolations?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO this for now. Excellent question. There were humans on their side, and there were occasionally singers on the humans' side.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

[NameIess]

Whatever the humans did in the first desolation, it ended in a ton (Probably thousands) of dead Singer angry enough to switch sides from Honor to Odium to get a chance at revenge. So while not every Singer fought for Odium, nor every human for Honor, I find it likely that the vast majority of Singers did.

(On a side note, this got me thinking: Will we get an assassin in white prologue for the back half, only surrounding the events of the first desolation? Like, some kind of betrayal that we see from different herald and fused perspectives? Mirroring how Szeth killing Gavilar caused the Parshendi/Alethi war, except on a much grander scale.)

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Just now, Nameless said:

Whatever the humans did in the first desolation, it ended in a ton (Probably thousands) of dead Singer angry enough to switch sides from Honor to Odium to get a chance at revenge. So while not every Singer fought for Odium, nor every human for Honor, I find it likely that the vast majority of Singers did.

I don't think it has to start with a majority of Singers angry enough to attack humanity - I linked to a post I made previously, but my supposition is that it was, in effect, initially a type of terrorist war. All you need are hot heads to escalate the conflict. A few humans brutalise several Singers, possibly over a period so not just one attack. A division of the Singer armed forces or civilians retaliate on the humans responsible, or humans they think are responsible, only they may have also hit several innocents, or make the initial attackers even more aggressive. Revenge escalates revenge, and magic is thrown into the mix. The war didn't need a single massive event, only a series of increasingly horrific attacks from one side against the other.

 

Just now, Nameless said:

(On a side note, this got me thinking: Will we get an assassin in white prologue for the back half, only surrounding the events of the first desolation? Like, some kind of betrayal that we see from different herald and fused perspectives? Mirroring how Szeth killing Gavilar caused the Parshendi/Alethi war, except on a much grander scale.)

That would be fascinating. It would make for an interesting counter, showing how the old war mirrors the new.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I don't think it has to start with a majority of Singers angry enough to attack humanity - I linked to a post I made previously, but my supposition is that it was, in effect, initially a type of terrorist war. All you need are hot heads to escalate the conflict. A few humans brutalise several Singers, possibly over a period so not just one attack. A division of the Singer armed forces or civilians retaliate on the humans responsible, or humans they think are responsible, only they may have also hit several innocents, or make the initial attackers even more aggressive. Revenge escalates revenge, and magic is thrown into the mix. The war didn't need a single massive event, only a series of increasingly horrific attacks from one side against the other.

We know that something happened that led to a bunch of really angry souls. That could have been the culmination of a long period of unrest between Singers and humans, maybe the humans slaughtered an entire city or something like that. The way that the event is spoken about specifically Raboniel telling Venli that after the initial event, no other fused were created, makes me think that it was a singular event.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Just now, Nameless said:

We know that something happened that led to a bunch of really angry souls. That could have been the culmination of a long period of unrest between Singers and humans, maybe the humans slaughtered an entire city or something like that. The way that the event is spoken about specifically Raboniel telling Venli that after the initial event, no other fused were created, makes me think that it was a singular event.

It could have been a single event at the tail end of a long series of skirmishes. It likely began with Singer resentment of humans drawing more spren to themselves (and a general resentment that their world had become a refugee dumping ground for the Cosmere - I think Aimian is the Rosharan general term for alien, with all the western areas being human or Aimian based). Slowly building resentments leading to a war leading to a horrific war crime that then caused several Singers to become Fused sounds plausible - I don't think the war started with Singers choosing to become Fused, but rather Singers who had been fighting becoming Fused as a final commitment, embracing Surges that Honour and Cultivation had forbidden them. Could you provide the quote when Raboniel said that to Venli? I'd like to examine it with you and see if we can find the shape of how things may have happened.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ixthos said:

It could have been a single event at the tail end of a long series of skirmishes. It likely began with Singer resentment of humans drawing more spren to themselves (and a general resentment that their world had become a refugee dumping ground for the Cosmere - I think Aimian is the Rosharan general term for alien, with all the western areas being human or Aimian based). Slowly building resentments leading to a war leading to a horrific war crime that then caused several Singers to become Fused sounds plausible - I don't think the war started with Singers choosing to become Fused, but rather Singers who had been fighting becoming Fused as a final commitment, embracing Surges that Honour and Cultivation had forbidden them. Could you provide the quote when Raboniel said that to Venli? I'd like to examine it with you and see if we can find the shape of how things may have happened.

Oh yeah, the event could totally have come after years of resentment and war. Maybe the humans won the war by doing something horrible.

Here's the quote:

Quote

"Venli" Raboniel said. "Many mortals in the past sought elevation to stand among the Fused. You should know that, after our initial elevation, he never again granted such a lofty gift to a mortal." (RoW Ch. 51 p. 647)

It's not concrete, but it does seem to imply that there was one event that created all the fused.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Just now, Nameless said:

Oh yeah, the event could totally have come after years of resentment and war. Maybe the humans won the war by doing something horrible.

Here's the quote:

It's not concrete, but it does seem to imply that there was one event that created all the fused.

That does make sense. It may be that this was when the Singers - or a group of them - officially sided with Odium. We know the Singers were initially forbidden from using Surges, and Odium is reluctant to spend his power, even being very sparing with providing Raysium. These events could have combined into a single event - those Singers who chose to reject Honour and Cultivation and gave themselves to Odium for a chance at revenge were transformed, a single act of Odium expending his power to transform them, and only granting them one Surge each. After that he had what he wanted, and they now had the power to fight on the front they wanted but had been forbidden.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

That does make sense. It may be that this was when the Singers - or a group of them - officially sided with Odium. We know the Singers were initially forbidden from using Surges, and Odium is reluctant to spend his power, even being very sparing with providing Raysium. These events could have combined into a single event - those Singers who chose to reject Honour and Cultivation and gave themselves to Odium for a chance at revenge were transformed, a single act of Odium expending his power to transform them, and only granting them one Surge each. After that he had what he wanted, and they now had the power to fight on the front they wanted but had been forbidden.

They didn't initially gain the surge, so Odium might not have even told them about it originally.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

They didn't initially gain the surge, so Odium might not have even told them about it originally.

We know the people the Fused used to be couldn't use Surges, but it isn't clear if, once they became Fused, they didn't immediately have the Surges. We know the Singers knew that humans came with power they were forbidden to use, and likely the humans were also forbidden to use them again considering what happened, and while spren eventually gave humans the Surges, and the Heralds only gained their blades when the Fused became a problem, it likely is that they knew of the Surges - as the spren embody these ideas before they bonded humans and gave them the power - and it could be that they made passive use of them, with Odium's gift being both immortality and access to power. After all, if it was a singular event then it couldn't have just been to give them immortality and then later give them their unique forms of power as Fused - we could even say that this act was to turn them into spren, and so when they possess a Singer it is in a way giving the Singer a form of power. Without it, what form would a possessed Singer have? This could even tie to the idea of the spren "betraying" the Singers, denying them access to passive abilities they previously had used that would have been helpful fighting humans.

In short, do we know that the Fused - when they were Fused rather than just angry enemies of humanity - didn't have the Surges, or that becoming Fused is what gave them access to the Surges?

 

 

Also, I just would like to add this to the theory, but I think https://coppermind.net/wiki/Alakavish is interesting in light of this theory - I propose Alakavish likely began a war between humans and Singers prior to one of the Desolations, and this is what caused more Singers to initially enter that Desolation on the Fused side than those who otherwise would. Perhaps the war was with other humans, but we know the Singers still had viable communities up to and including during the False Desolation.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

We know the people the Fused used to be couldn't use Surges, but it isn't clear if, once they became Fused, they didn't immediately have the Surges. We know the Singers knew that humans came with power they were forbidden to use, and likely the humans were also forbidden to use them again considering what happened, and while spren eventually gave humans the Surges, and the Heralds only gained their blades when the Fused became a problem, it likely is that they knew of the Surges - as the spren embody these ideas before they bonded humans and gave them the power - and it could be that they made passive use of them, with Odium's gift being both immortality and access to power. After all, if it was a singular event then it couldn't have just been to give them immortality and then later give them their unique forms of power as Fused - we could even say that this act was to turn them into spren, and so when they possess a Singer it is in a way giving the Singer a form of power. Without it, what form would a possessed Singer have? This could even tie to the idea of the spren "betraying" the Singers, denying them access to passive abilities they previously had used that would have been helpful fighting humans.

Initially, the fused didn't know how to use the Surges. Here's a quote from the Stormfather in OB:

Quote

"And even before the Fused learned to command the Surges, men could not fight them" OB Ch. 38, p. 405

So they could have used the surges, but didn't know they could or didn't know how to. Maybe Odium didn't initially give them access to voidlight.

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

Also, I just would like to add this to the theory, but I think https://coppermind.net/wiki/Alakavish is interesting in light of this theory - I propose Alakavish likely began a war between humans and Singers prior to one of the Desolations, and this is what caused more Singers to initially enter that Desolation on the Fused side than those who otherwise would. Perhaps the war was with other humans, but we know the Singers still had viable communities up to and including during the False Desolation.

If Alakavish had started a war against the Singers before the desolation, would that really have done much to the human's ability to fight off a desolation? I think the implication was that Alakavish started a war against other humans, or at least caused such a war.

Also, we know from Raboniel that no other groups of Singers other than the Listeners successfully split off from Odium's side to become neutral. This implies that all or almost all of the Singers served Odium or served Honor.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Nameless
Messed up spelling

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Initially, the fused didn't know how to use the Surges. Here's a quote from the Stormfather in OB:

So they could have used the surges, but didn't know they could or didn't know how to. Maybe Odium didn't initially give them access to voidlight.

Hmmm ... that does seem to imply that the Fused were a threat humanity couldn't face until given access to the Surges. Your suggestion about only later giving them Voidlight does make sense, and I wonder if that is something Odium planned? Make them more and more dependent on him by slowly granting them more of the gift. Though we do know the Stormfather's memories are self-admittedly incomplete and possibly mistaken.

 

11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If Alakavish had started a war against the Singers before the desolation, would that really have done much to the human's ability to fight off a desolation? I think the implication was that Alakavish started a war against other humans, or at least caused such a war.

Also, we know from Raboniel that no other groups of Singers other than the Listeners successfully split off from Odium's side to become neutral. This implies that all or almost all of the Singers served Odium or served Honor.

Maybe, but think of it this way - if Desolations consist of humans (with Singer allies) fighting Fused (with Singers who support them, and possibly some humans), then the more Singers on the Fused side as opposed to the human side, the harder the battle. If there are Singers who don't want anything to do with the battle but then some human comes along and kills their families, they are more likely to join the Fused early, rather than try to remain neutral or siding with humanity.

That I think is more about Singers who serve Odium being allowed to leave, rather than Singers being Odium's by default (as you suggest by noting Singers who served Honour as well). One could also argue Singers who served Honour or Cultivation were human allies, at least nominally, or who were allies but only provided logistical help. Most Singers ultimately did side with Odium, so Singers who followed Honour, and then seeing Honour's adopted people attack them, likely turned from Honour and from Cultivation. There could be Singers who followed Honour and Cultivation but saw both sides as in the wrong, and then sided with the ones who didn't try to kill them because "we all know you REALLY serve Odium! Otherwise you'd be helping us!"