Which came first - Elantris or the first Shaod?

[darniil he/him]

My apologies for the three new threads. I had some questions pop up after finishing Elantris, and I thought it might be best to keep them in their own threads rather than lumping them together in a way that could make things complicated later (if the discussions became long).

I see two conflicting opinions, both on Brandon's site. I'm not sure which one is accurate, and I don't remember reading anything here on the forums that makes a solid declaration in favor of one or the other.

The Aons had to exist before Elantris — otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn't have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/91/Elantris-Chapter-62-2

Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/store/item/14/Aon-Ehe-Pendant

It's possible that someone other than Brandon wrote the Aon Ehe thing, and it's not canon, but it would be nice to be able to see something that gives a definitive - or close to it - answer either way.

(I also realize that the first quote is from "god" (the designer of the universe) and the second quote is written in a more in-universe style, as if by the people who live there, so that could also explain the difference. If that's the case, then I would assume that the comment in the annotation would be the "real" way things happened.)

[Cuaiir he/him]

What I'm seeing here is that there were two groups of Elantrians - the ones that we are familiar with, and the ones that originally built the city. The second quote seems to reference the group we are familiar with, and includes the Aonic people in Arelon and Teod. It implies that those people did not originally inhabit that area, but instead moved there from elsewhere on Sel.

The first quote references the group that originally built the city many hundreds of years ago, and implies that this group at some point either abandoned their city or were wiped out. In favor of the abandonment theory is the fact that we've seen Elantrians in other parts of the cosmere (see WoK), but this seems unlikely as it would require every proto-Elantrian to leave Sel. Instead, the more likely explanation is that Odium's visit to Sel long before the events of the book wiped out the original group, but left the city intact.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Or it's possible that Brandon changed his mind sometime between writing the annotations and the release of the pendant text.

[darniil he/him]

@Cuaiir: Was it something specific you read that made you think that - the two "sets" of Elantrians - or was it just a bunch of little things you noticed and connected the dots between?

@CrazyRioter: That's a good point, too. I just wish we had something that said one way or the other, so we didn't have to make up our own explanations. :-/

[Cuaiir he/him]

It's a combination of spending a lot of time here looking through theory threads and having read everything Brandon's written at least three times, including the annotations. One thing I can point to specifically and say "this inspired me" is actually your first quote.

The Aons had to exist before Elantris — otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn't have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power.

Emphasis mine, of course.

The Elantrians we are familiar with did make a study of AonDor - we have proof of that in the text - but Aon Rao was only briefly mentioned, in passing. I cannot remember the page number, but I know that Raoden mentioned that his study of AonDor stated that Rao was important, but not why. It's possible that the Elantrians we are familiar with did not make use of or study Aon Rao as intensely as they did Aons with an immediate effect.

I could go into deep Aon-development theory, but I'm trying not to derail the thread. Let's say for right now that if the Elantrians we know knew exactly how important Aon Rao is to their magic, it would have been far more prevalent in their lives. Instead, the only example we have of a functioning Aon Rao is the city of Elantris. Had they known more about it, I think that each Elantrian would have carried a smaller version on them if they left the Elantris-effect area. It's part of why I'm so curious what a tattoo of an Aon would do, but that's a topic for another time.

[darniil he/him]

Yeah, I think Brandon RAFOed the tattoo question.

I like your idea about Odium annihilating the original Elantrians, the ones who built the city. It kind of makes sense, too - "I'm here to kill you, Shards, and anyone who ties themselves to you." So, if there were any people with Skai-based power, like Skai-lantrians, they were probably killed, too. (Just as I'd imagine that allomancers would have been killed if Odium had shown up on Scadrial to kill Preservation and Ruin.) And, of course, there were no Seons when Odium showed up, or I bet he would have taken those out, too.

[Catalyst21 he/him]

Yeah, I think Brandon RAFOed the tattoo question.

I like your idea about Odium annihilating the original Elantrians, the ones who built the city. It kind of makes sense, too - "I'm here to kill you, Shards, and anyone who ties themselves to you." So, if there were any people with Skai-based power, like Skai-lantrians, they were probably killed, too. (Just as I'd imagine that allomancers would have been killed if Odium had shown up on Scadrial to kill Preservation and Ruin.) And, of course, there were no Seons when Odium showed up, or I bet he would have taken those out, too.

On the Odium issue, it might not have been intentional. Odium SHATTERED Skai. We have no clue what the effect would be on people when a shard they are associated with is shattered. Think of how much trouble 1 altered Aon had on the Elantrians. Now imagine what could have happened if you were an Elantrian when Skai was Shattered. possibly a backlash of power?

[happyman he/him]

On the Odium issue, it might not have been intentional. Odium SHATTERED Skai. We have no clue what the effect would be on people when a shard they are associated with is shattered. Think of how much trouble 1 altered Aon had on the Elantrians. Now imagine what could have happened if you were an Elantrian when Skai was Shattered. possibly a backlash of power?

I agree with this. If there were ur-Elantrians around when Aona was killed, I'm guessing Odium wouldn't have to try to take them out. They would just be collateral damage. Not that Odium would particular mind, I'm thinking.

[Zas678 he/him]

So then the question comes- Where did the modern-day Aonic people come from?

[Sunblesser]

So then the question comes- Where did the modern-day Aonic people come from?

are they not the ones who migrated from the east to find elantris already standing?

[Zas678 he/him]

It doesn't say. All it says is that "they came from other lands." This could mean other Selian lands, or perhaps something else. They did already have a leader (in fact they had a King), and so they moved in and a generation or two later became Elantrians.

[Sunblesser]

It doesn't say. All it says is that "they came from other lands." This could mean other Selian lands, or perhaps something else. They did already have a leader (in fact they had a King), and so they moved in and a generation or two later became Elantrians.

so the origins of the modern aonic people are uncertain... i wonder if they were even aonic before they came to elantris. since the aons have a geographical connection to the area around elantris, i would be surprised if they'd used the same aons as we see in the book. i'd bet that even the first of them to become elantrians would have had to proceed through trial and error to figure out what they could do. but that's a little ot.

i do like the idea of the original elantrians being killed off in the backlash of the splintering of aona's shard. the idea that elantris was just sitting their waiting for the immigrants who became the arelish never sat right with me. plus, we really have no idea how long ago odium visited sel. it could have easily been in the prehistory of the arelish peoples, wherever they came from.

[Catalyst21 he/him]

so the origins of the modern aonic people are uncertain... i wonder if they were even aonic before they came to elantris. since the aons have a geographical connection to the area around elantris, i would be surprised if they'd used the same aons as we see in the book. i'd bet that even the first of them to become elantrians would have had to proceed through trial and error to figure out what they could do. but that's a little ot.

i do like the idea of the original elantrians being killed off in the backlash of the splintering of aona's shard. the idea that elantris was just sitting their waiting for the immigrants who became the arelish never sat right with me. plus, we really have no idea how long ago odium visited sel. it could have easily been in the prehistory of the arelish peoples, wherever they came from.

The "new" elantrians would not have had to learn it totally by trial and error, remember that elantris (the city) was covered in Aons. So they would not have had to figure out the symbols, just the meanings and modifiers.

[happyman he/him]

The "new" elantrians would not have had to learn it totally by trial and error, remember that elantris (the city) was covered in Aons. So they would not have had to figure out the symbols, just the meanings and modifiers.

Sounds dangerous, though! Kinda like studying something dangerous in the real world---like electricity or radiation.

Which is probably a pretty good analogy.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Marie Curie died of radiation poisoning because they didn't know that radiation was dangerous.

[happyman he/him]

Marie Curie died of radiation poisoning because they didn't know that radiation was dangerous.

Exactly my point. I'm guessing that the "original" Elantrians (or at least, those Elantrians which weren't able to study magic from books) ran some risks in their experimentation. Accidentally setting themselves on fire or killing themselves with a mal-formed Aons seem like the kind of thing that could happen. Because the magic is too darn useful, though, experimentation would continue until it could be controlled.

[Sunblesser]

Exactly my point. I'm guessing that the "original" Elantrians (or at least, those Elantrians which weren't able to study magic from books) ran some risks in their experimentation. Accidentally setting themselves on fire or killing themselves with a mal-formed Aons seem like the kind of thing that could happen. Because the magic is too darn useful, though, experimentation would continue until it could be controlled.

totally. raoden just about killed himself and galladon with his first aon that worked

[Cuaiir he/him]

The hardest part about developing Aons would be finding the right base, and then figuring out what that base Aon does. After that, it's just a case of finding out what modifiers you can use, where they go, and what they modify.

Let's look at Aon Ehe for example. Your basic Ehe will make a column of flame in the direction the Aon is drawn. So you draw the Aon while facing east, and your column of flame goes east. Quick and dirty, you could draw a small Ehe to light a fireplace or a large one to burn down a house. Either way, the flame goes out quickly if it doesn't contact any fuel.

But finding that Aon took some time. From the pendant:

The story tells of the first princess of Arelon. This was some years after the founding of Arelon following the migration of the Aonic people from other lands. Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty. While some people assumed it haunted, Proud King Rhashm (later renamed Raoshem) determined to conquer the fears of his people and set up a kingdom centered on Elantris.

The transformation of the first Elantrians happened beginning several decades later. Princess Elashe—the first of Raoshem's line to be chosen as an Elantrian—claimed to have seen the pattern of this Aon inscribed on a coal in her hearth the day after she underwent the transformation. Whether or not this story is true, a coal or rock written with Aon Ehe on it is considered good luck and a ward against winter spirits. (Though this kind of superstition is frowned upon by the Korathi priests.)

Aon Ehe Pendant

So even with the new Elantrians rediscovering the magic of AonDor (possibly using the books in that hidden library), it took them some time to find new base Aons. I'd be willing to bet that Aons with easy symmetry (Edo, Deo, Ata, Sea, etc.) would be the first discovered, then things with more complicated symmetry (Ehe, Reo, Teo, Ela, etc), and finally things that seem completely random (Mea, Eda, Are, Nae, etc). The 'random' Aons would probably make more sense if we had a better and more accurate map of Opelon/Sycla, and a deeper understanding of how the Realmatics of AonDor work.

Once you've got a base Aon, then you can do the fun, experimental part - modifiers. Raoden modified the heck out of Ehe in the novel, but specific modifers that he used can be deduced, if not stated outright.

Duration: make the column of flame last for a longer time after the Aon is finished being drawn.

Intensity: artificially increase the size of the flame without modifying the size of the base Aon.

Shape: instead of a column, you could make a cone or a line. Think 'Burning Hands' or wall of flame.

Obviously there are more modifiers than this for all the different Aons - i can think of targeting for Ien, and distance for Tia off the top of my head - and that raises different questions entirely. Do the Duration modifiers for every Aon go in the same location (e.g. do the ones for Ehe go in the same location, relative to the Aon, that the ones for Ire go in)? What about the Shao-based illusion that Raoden used late in the book, what kind of modifiers did that have on it and where did they go in relation to the base Aon? We don't have the answers to this yet. I wish we did, it would help our understanding of AonDor - and by extension the system the Dakhor monks used.

Interesting thing I noted on the pendant description: Ehe can be used as a modifer, specifically as a ward to trigger other Aons in a sequence. This suggests that Aons can be used almost like a programming language, if you know enough about them. Aon Ashes that light up when the sun goes down, water that flows hot or cold at the touch of a button, an Ial-based auto-healing chamber... Elantrians would never need to develop technology if they studied AonDor and used it right. I'm thinking of all the stereotypical science-fiction things that show up, and then replacing the science with Aons... It would be possible, if you knew the Aons. And it would give Arelon and the Elantrians a complete monopoly on Aon-based hardware. Supposing this could happen, the only real competition would be Dakhor, and since that requires human sacrifices I can't imagine it would become very popular.

And now I've derailed the thread. Back on topic: once you've discovered a base Aon, the real danger comes in misplacing modifiers, which is what I think happened to Dilaf's wife - the Aon was drawn with all the modifiers on the opposite side of the Aon, and that entirely changed what would happen. I am, of course, making the assumption that a correctly drawn base Aon will always do something, even if it has modifiers that completely alter its effect.

[darniil he/him]

So you draw the Aon while facing east, and your column of flame goes east.

If I remember the scene from the book correctly, the flame would go west if you're facing east. (I seem to recall Raoden having to "make a reflex save".)

And now I've derailed the thread. Back on topic: once you've discovered a base Aon, the real danger comes in misplacing modifiers, which is what I think happened to Dilaf's wife - the Aon was drawn with all the modifiers on the opposite side of the Aon, and that entirely changed what would happen. I am, of course, making the assumption that a correctly drawn base Aon will always do something, even if it has modifiers that completely alter its effect.

This fits, though considering how the Elantrians of the time considered it such a basic mistake to have made, I also like the idea that Dilaf's Dakhor modifications flubbed the Aon as it was being implemented.

[happyman he/him]

And now I've derailed the thread. Back on topic: once you've discovered a base Aon, the real danger comes in misplacing modifiers, which is what I think happened to Dilaf's wife - the Aon was drawn with all the modifiers on the opposite side of the Aon, and that entirely changed what would happen. I am, of course, making the assumption that a correctly drawn base Aon will always do something, even if it has modifiers that completely alter its effect.

When Raoden described the "proto-zombie" case study, he explicitly said the base Aon was missing one of its lines. He mentioned that it shouldn't have done anything at all.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

THe city acted as a giant power resevoir, as the original elatrisians, when they drew on their power, their aon dar were much stronger as the shard was yet whole. I base this on the fact this is the only story where power was limited from the distance to a city. It makes sense that its hard to draw on the power of somethingif it is broken.

My guess that a similar symbol placed on the body, in a medallion, or tatoe would allow greater ability to use power away from the city. I wonder if their healing skills are advance enough to place symbols on to bones with out causing undue harm, superior to the enemies method.

WHen new people came along, they had the symbols of seons to base their magic on, then experimented.

SHoad simply makes you more capable of using energy, the body redesigned to accept and utilise and draw energy from beyond them selves.

THe thing i want to know can Elantrisians use symbols of another language to create magic, so give them another sphere of magic.