On Shardpools

[Chaos]

This isn't a theory, but more of a general topic, because there's a lot we don't know about Shardpools.

For newcomers, Shardpools are what we are calling those pools that are related to a specific Shard. Preservation's pool was the Well of Ascension. Ruin had a pool under the Pits of Hathsin. We see Raoden going into a Shardpool at the end of Elantris. The Shardpools, being the liquid essence of a Shard, is related to their Cognitive aspect.

As far as I can tell, we've always thought that these Shardpools are just a fact of life in the cosmere. If there's a Shard, there's a Shardpool. That's what I always thought. But that's decidedly not the case, as I randomly found today:

8) Does the Well of Ascension still exsit in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...

8 ) The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least.

This kind of blew my mind, to say the least, and leads me to wonder what conditions must be satisfied for a Shardpool to exist. (Especially since Ruin's is not one centralized pool, either)

Atium and lerasium, as well as the both mists, are extensions of Sazed's will. Sazed probably could exert that same sort of influence over both Shardpools. So, if a Shard could do that, why would pools have to manifest at all?

Perhaps, since Shardpools are the Cognitive aspect of a Shard, Sazed hasn't held the power long enough for both his pools to manifest. Maybe as a Shard is molding one's mind to its intent, the pool gets larger.

Thoughts?

[CrazyRioter]

well in all three examples, the Shard connected to the pool is hampered in some way, Preservation's cognitive force was tied up imprisoning Ruin, and the SFHA is Splintered. Maybe the power just naturally coalesces into pools (at least partially) when there is no proper direction for it.

[Windrunner]

Perhaps, since Shardpools are the Cognitive aspect of a Shard, Sazed hasn't held the power long enough for both his pools to manifest. Maybe as a Shard is molding one's mind to its intent, the pool gets larger.

I like this idea but one question. Where is it stated that the Shardpool is the cognitive aspect of a Shard? I've seen this said around the forums but I've never seen a quote that says that explicitly. I'm definitely no expert but I don't see how the mind that controls the Shard has the kind of power that is held in the Well of Ascension, also isn't Leras's cognitive aspect nearly gone, expended to imprison Ati's cognitive aspect? I feel like I've missed a step here so if I didn't see where this was discussed earlier, then I'm sorry.

[Chaos]

I like this idea but one question. Where is it stated that the Shardpool is the cognitive aspect of a Shard? I've seen this said around the forums but I've never seen a quote that says that explicitly. I'm definitely no expert but I don't see how the mind that controls the Shard has the kind of power that is held in the Well of Ascension, also isn't Leras's cognitive aspect nearly gone, expended to imprison Ati's cognitive aspect? I feel like I've missed a step here so if I didn't see where this was discussed earlier, then I'm sorry.

No, that's totally fine. Let me go grab some quotes for you. Sometimes I do get things wrong, and it's important we are precise about this stuff.

This was one of the main quotes I was thinking of, but as I read it again, it isn't as strong as I thought it was originally.

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak--though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Now, here's how I am interpreting this. The physical form of a Shard's power does a specific, limited thing, because it is physical. Looking at that third paragraph, I feel that Allomancy is like that same principle in action. Allomancy is of Preservation, but it is what the Realmatics of Scadrial allows for. In mortal form, that physical body is limiting the types of power that Vin can access into that one conduit of Allomancy.

So, reading that, there's a strong correlation to the physical (solid) form of a godly essence and the Physical Realm. I don't think I'd get any arguments if I said that the mists were the Spiritual form of Preservation's power, because indeed, the mists were the primary body of Preservation (and with black mists, Ruin's) power. I feel that makes sense.

So then there's the liquid essence. One last state of matter, one last realm. But I think it makes sense, too. The liquid form isn't the main body of power--the Lord Ruler only touched a fraction of Preservation. It's not the main body of a Shard's power. So what part does a Shard have, which is strong, but fairly weak in comparison? Well, it does have its Cognitive aspect.

Perhaps I am jumping the gun with the liquid=Cognitive connection, but the Well of Ascension is explicitly stated to be Preservation's mind.

By sacrificing most of his consciousness, Preservation created Ruin's prison, breaking their deal and trying to keep Ruin from destroying what they had created. This event left their powers again nearly balanced—Ruin imprisoned, only a trace of himself capable of leaking out. Preservation reduced to a mere wisp of what he once was, barely capable of thought and action.

These two minds were, of course, independent of the raw force of their powers. Actually, I am uncertain of how thoughts and personalities came to be attached to the powers in the first place—but I believe they were not there originally. For both powers could be detached from the minds that ruled them.

Also, from an annotation:

That consciousness attached to Preservation—like the one attached to Ruin—is a part of Adonalsium, which will eventually be explained. Suffice it to say that in a pinch, Preservation could draw upon the power of his own mind and use it to imprison Ruin. This was why he was able to pull of the trick, as Ruin wasn't expecting it. He might have anticipated an attack using Preservation's power, but not his mind—not knowing what burning his own mind would do.

That is why Preservation's cage captured Ruin's own mind, but not his power.

So, at least the Well of Ascension is Preservation's Cognitive aspect (or a great chunk of it).

I suppose you could make an argument that not all Shardpools need to be related to the Cognitive. Maybe this stuff doesn't generalize to other worlds. That's a perfectly good point. However, Stormlight feels similar to the mists, and seems to be a Spiritual thing. I stand by my Realmatic analysis of those godly essences. So, maybe Shardpools don't have to be Cognitive, but hey, it's the best we have right now.

[LightReader]

I suppose you could make an argument that not all Shardpools need to be related to the Cognitive. Maybe this stuff doesn't generalize to other worlds. That's a perfectly good point. However, Stormlight feels similar to the mists, and seems to be a Spiritual thing. I stand by my Realmatic analysis of those godly essences. So, maybe Shardpools don't have to be Cognitive, but hey, it's the best we have right now.

So if I understand correctly, the theory is that Shard power can manifest in three ways: solid=physical aspect, liquid=cognitive aspect, and gas=spiritual aspect. So lets test it and see if it can be applied to the other Shards (besides Ruin and Preservation) without having to reach too much.

If we assume (and this is a pretty big assumption so it could be way off) that power that manifests as light is of the same aspect (spiritual) as power manifest as gas (like the mists), then for Honor on Roshar one could say Stormlight is the spiritual aspect, gemstones could be the physical, and some pool somewhere could be the cognitive? Or perhaps the cognitive is manifesting as the storms themselves - maybe the pool is reforming and draining like in Mistborn, only its happening a lot faster.

For Aona, we know where her Shardpool is and it does seem to be sentient (it talks to Raoden) so that seems to support it being cognitive. Maybe the spiritual aspect of Aona is the Dor itself (the light emitted when Aons are drawn by Elantrians, etc.), and the physical aspect is something unknown, or it could be the city of Elantris itself maybe.

In BioChroma, Breath seems like a good canditate for the spiritual aspect, but I don't have any idea about the cognitive or physical, though I know people have specualted about the flowers - the Tears of Edgli(sp?) being where Endowment's pool is, and since color is what is required to make inanimate objects come to life I could see the colors (the liquid dyes made from those flowers) containing cognitive aspect energy.

Maybe Endowment's pool works like Ruin's pool did, when color is used up it coalesces again in the flowers the way when atium was used it coalesced again in the pits. In fact, based on how Ruin's pool works (some liquid essence dripping to become beads of Atium or at least that's how I assume it works) then we have to take into account the idea that the power of a Shard can change aspects - cognitive energy can be transformed into phsyical energy, etc.

Edit: Maybe this needs a new thread of its own, it covers a lot more than just shardpools. Sorry.

Edited October 15, 2011 by LightReader

[darniil]

Ruin had a pool under the Pits of Hathsin.

I always thought that the Pits, or rather, the geodes, were the "pool" for Ruin. Brandon's comment that there were small wells in the Pits makes me think this even more. Although, it doesn't fully explain why Ruin's pools (if that's what the geodes were) would create the solid form. (Though, LightReader's comment about power changing aspects might explain that.) Of course the Well of Ascension may have also created Lerasium, just at a much slower rate. (We never see anything that suggests where the beads of Lerasium came from, right?)

Perhaps, since Shardpools are the Cognitive aspect of a Shard, Sazed hasn't held the power long enough for both his pools to manifest.

Or, maybe it has to do with attention. The more attention a Shard focuses on a planet, the more likely it will "cast" a pool there (like one casts a shadow, or footprints will be made over time in a semi-solid surface if one stays stationary, or how a black hole extends its event horizon farther out as it grows over time). Sazed's been looking around investigating a lot of other stuff, too. Not necessarily on other worlds, but trying to find out about Adonalsium, etc.

Then again, the "focused attention" idea wouldn't explain the blue pool on Sel.

The physical form of a Shard's power does a specific, limited thing, because it is physical.

In this particular quote, don't you mean the solid form does a specific thing? Liquids are physical, too. I think I see what you mean, but if I am seeing what you mean, I also think it might be more precise to say solid, not physical.

That consciousness attached to Preservation—like the one attached to Ruin—is a part of Adonalsium, which will eventually be explained.

That's interesting, and it goes right in line with how we (can't help but) look at things differently than Brandon. I got the feeling that Brandon doesn't separate the Shards from their holders anywhere near as much as we do, and this seems to suggest the same. The way I read the part I quoted, I would have thought "that consciousness" would be what originally called itself Leras, which, in turn, would make it not a part of Adonalsium.

I don't really have any theory or anything to go along with this. I just thought it was interesting.

Something else I wondered: what's the significance of the "binary" counting? People on Scadrial kept saying it took the Well of Ascension a thousand years to refill, but didn't Brandon say it was 1024? The computer geek in me loves this progression, of course, but I haven't seen an explanation as to why the numbers work this way.

Hmm, going back to something I mentioned earlier, (and this is pure speculation; show me where I'm wrong, if I am). If Preservation's pool generated Lerasium, that might explain why there were so few beads of it:

Preservation had one pool. Ruin had many small pools. The geodes could be destroyed, but they would eventually come back. Preservation's pool took 1024 years to recharge after it was "destroyed" (read: used). Ruin had smaller pools than Preservation, but many more. One versus many - this could explain the vast difference in quantity of solid representations of the two Shards. (It takes time for a solid aspect to develop from a liquid aspect, and Ruin had many more "factories" operating than Preservation did.)

If this is the case, it might also give an indication as to how long it had been since Preservation trapped Ruin. (Or has Brandon given us a timeline?) That is, of course, if one bead of Lerasium is generated every "Well-cycle".

[CrazyRioter]

it's not "binary" it's hexadecimal, a multiple of 16.

[darniil]

it's not "binary" it's hexadecimal, a multiple of 16.

Right. Thanks. I used binary because it reminded me of the values of the bits in a byte. (And I used it in quotes because I didn't know the right term to use.)

[ulyssessword]

The problem with viewing 1024 as hexadecimal, is that it isn't a very special number anymore. 16^2 (written as 100 in hexadecimal) is 256, and 16^3 (written as 1000 in hexadecimal) is 4096. 4 * 16^2 is 1024, but it is written as 400 in hexadecimal, which is not a very special number.

For binary, 2^10 (written as 10000000000 in binary) is 1024.

The number written as 10000000000 (in binary) seems more special to me than 400 (in hexadecimal).

[happyman]

The problem with viewing 1024 as hexadecimal, is that it isn't a very special number anymore. 16^2 (written as 100 in hexadecimal) is 256, and 16^3 (written as 1000 in hexadecimal) is 4096. 4 * 16^2 is 1024, but it is written as 400 in hexadecimal, which is not a very special number.

For binary, 2^10 (written as 10000000000 in binary) is 1024.

The number written as 10000000000 (in binary) seems more special to me than 400 (in hexadecimal).

I, personally, am certain that 1024 is actually the very special combination of two meaningful numbers in the cosmere. E.g., I think it is special because it is 2^10.

This still leaves me with the question though: which years were they using to measure it in? If the planet moved in orbit, the length of the year should have changed. Was it the original years that did or, or the new years? And regardless of which "year" it was, why is the length of the year significant, shard-power-wise? On Earth, the length of the year is not a clean multiple of anything other time unit we use; it is essentially irrational.

[lordofsoup]

In the cosmere, nature is much more ordered than our world. Things follow a certain numbers, while ours likes symmetry and following order, it is much less important than in the Cosmere, where peoples' abilities follow a certain number. In the case of Mistborn 16. There are 16 types of allomancers, and 1 out of 16 people snapped when exposed to the mists.

[darniil]

There are 16 types of allomancers

17, if you count Mistborn alongside the 16 Mistings. (And 18 if you count Atium Mistings.)

[happyman]

17, if you count Mistborn alongside the 16 Mistings. (And 18 if you count Atium Mistings.)

The number increase quite quickly when you take into account Feruchemy. It seems to me that Twinborn and Feruchemy should count as well. And of course, there is always the question of whether or not there are Lerasium mistings!

[Satsuoni]

Hm.. it seems that Pits of Hathsin did produce something liquid:

There! His fingers found a small rock at the center of the pocket—a rock formed by the mysterious drippings of the crystals. A Hathsin geode.

And yet, the Ruins mind was not there - it was trapped near the Well, and in the Pits there was only a part of his body coalescing into Atium. The atium was specifically called the body of the God by Sazed, too. Also, the Ruin pools were not a natural formation - they were made by Preservation to siphon part of Ruins power:

The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin’s body that he had stolen away during the betrayal and imprisonment.

So it would seem to me that the pools are not directly connected to the Cognitive aspect of a Shard, and are, in fact just an outlet absorbing and producing the Shards body in specific (liquid or solid) form. Also, the Pools are created by the Shards (not necessary the same ones that hold the specific body), for some purpose. In case of Well of Ascension, here is Sazeds theory:

I suspect that she couldn’t have taken them all in until after she’d touched the power at the Well of Ascension. It was always meant, I believe, to be something of an attuning force. Something that, once touched, would adjust a person’s body to be able to accept the mists.

. The purpose of the Pits is noted above. The pool in Elantris is unknown, but maybe it was some means of communication, or even a power recycle factory (unlikely). So, Sazed as Harmony does not have pools, because he does not want to, and has no one to force him. Whether Honor has a pool is unknown.

[darniil]

So, Sazed as Harmony does not have pools, because he does not want to, and has no one to force him.

Now that is an interesting thought.

Although, it does bring up an interesting question about something mentioned in AoL:

Wax mentioned something about Elendel - the reason it's the most populous place is because of the clean water, the ground that can be repeatedly farmed but never run out of nutrients, etc. There's something unusual about that area, and a shardpool would be an easy explanation.

[Catalyst21]

.... And of course, there is always the question of whether or not there are Lerasium mistings!

<logic>

Anyone can burn Lerasium. Think about it, it makes you a mistborn. you go from nothing to all 16. The original 10 had NO alomancy, and were granted it by lerasium.

</logic>

[Satsuoni]

To: Darniil. Well, the pool being the place where the power of Preservation is concentrating, it makes sense that surrounding area would feel some effects from it (like Preserving nutrients, etc). It may also be the reason the mists went out of control the slowest there: the excess power may have been drained into the pool, for a time at least.

[darniil]

To: Darniil. Well, the pool being the place where the power of Preservation is concentrating, it makes sense that surrounding area would feel some effects from it (like Preserving nutrients, etc). It may also be the reason the mists went out of control the slowest there: the excess power may have been drained into the pool, for a time at least.

Maybe. Except we didn't see something similar during the Final Empire. Preservation's pool was right there in Luthadel, but we saw no signs of things being preserved. And Ruin's pools were there at the Pits of Hathsin, right next to the kandra Homeland, and we didn't see any signs of accelerated decay there.

Then again, it could be argued that this was because both Preservation and Ruin were, at that time, shadows of their full potential.

[Satsuoni]

Oops, my bad. I have confused Luthadel with Elendel. Well, Brandon has apparently explicitly stated that Harmony/Sazed does not have a pool (see first post), so the explanation may be that he has just concentrated more on the region he put humans onto (I assume Elendel was founded around where the storage caverns have ended up), resulting in a region better suited for habitation.

[HardcorePooka]

I, personally, am certain that 1024 is actually the very special combination of two meaningful numbers in the cosmere. E.g., I think it is special because it is 2^10.

This still leaves me with the question though: which years were they using to measure it in? If the planet moved in orbit, the length of the year should have changed. Was it the original years that did or, or the new years? And regardless of which "year" it was, why is the length of the year significant, shard-power-wise? On Earth, the length of the year is not a clean multiple of anything other time unit we use; it is essentially irrational.

Brandon has already stated that 16 is a big number in the cosmere... 1024 is 16*64. 64 is 16*4. And honstly... I think that would be more important than any powers of 2. Just my two(extremely corroded) cents.

[Shivertongue]

What I want to know about Shardpools is:

1) is there a deep end?

And 2) are there lifeguards on duty?

[HardcorePooka]

Does one need to take classes to be a Shardpoolguard? Also... does each pool need 3 guards? One for each realm?

[Satsuoni]

1) - Nah, the pools are kiddie-sized.

2) They are filed with a special solution that delivers ATP directly into your cells. No oxygen necessary So no lifeguards.

[happyman]

Brandon has already stated that 16 is a big number in the cosmere... 1024 is 16*64. 64 is 16*4. And honstly... I think that would be more important than any powers of 2. Just my two(extremely corroded) cents.

This game can be played in a lot of ways. For instance, 16 is 2^(2^2), e.g., two exponentiated three times. What I'm looking for is the simplest relationship between these numbers that can be combined in a way compatible with what we know of the Cosmere. 16*16*4 just seems too complicated, when we have the simpler 2^10 available.

[HardcorePooka]

This game can be played in a lot of ways. For instance, 16 is 2^(2^2), e.g., two exponentiated three times. What I'm looking for is the simplest relationship between these numbers that can be combined in a way compatible with what we know of the Cosmere. 16*16*4 just seems too complicated, when we have the simpler 2^10 available.

Does Brandon ever do anything in the most simple way?

Also, since he has said 16 is an extremely important number I thought that would be the way to go. And to get really nitpicky(because that is what I do ) it would be 16(16*4).