Fabrials and Soulcasting

[Aashyma]

I am terribly sorry if anyone has already posted/come up with this theory.

I propose that all fabrials used for soulcasting are at best merely sources of stormlight required for "bribing" objects into changing.

My reasons for supposing this are:

1. Fabrials are technology. Therefore everyone should be able to use them like any other fabrial. Indeed Soulcasting Fabrials are an anomaly in this case.

2. The scarcity of people who can Soulcast is strange-they must be hired from the king at high price whenever a highprince requires them. Some countries do not have any-such as Kharbranth.

3. The secrecy surrounding their use is suspicious,especially when Kabsal mentions in chapter 42 that "You just put one on, press your hand against something, and tap a gemstone with your finger. It works that simply."

. Both Shallan and Navani assume that the Soulcasting fabrials are from ancient times yet Dallinar mentions in chapter 61 "The ancients didn’t have fabrials, Navani. I’m certain of it.”

Therefore, I conclude that those people who claim to use these fabrials to Soulcast actually share Jasnah and Shallan's gift.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Aashyma

[Sunblesser]

and it's just coincidence that they're all ardents? i don't think that would be very likely. there's too many soulcasters around, enough for over one hundred thousand people to be fed by them at the shatterd plains, for them all to be like jasnah and shallan.

part of this series concerns the re-emergence of the powers of the knights radiant, and it would be at a cross-purpose to have such a large group of knights already there in the background, imo.

[Zas678]

I think anyone can Fabrial soulcast- it's just taboo to have a non-priest doing it.

There are, however, very very few people who can naturally Soulcast (like Jasnah or Shallan)

And the reason why they don't have any Soulcasters in Kharbranth (sp?) is because they don't have the resources (the proper jewels/spren) to make Soulcasters.

Anyone can use them. They are just rare, and it's culturally bad to have a non-priest doing it.

[Aashyma]

and it's just coincidence that they're all ardents? i don't think that would be very likely. there's too many soulcasters around, enough for over one hundred thousand people to be fed by them at the shatterd plains, for them all to be like jasnah and shallan.

part of this series concerns the re-emergence of the powers of the knights radiant, and it would be at a cross-purpose to have such a large group of knights already there in the background, imo.

That's just it-there are very few of them, especially when you consider the fact that fabrials should work for everyone.

If they're meant to be holy, then all ardents should be able to use them.

It also explains why there are assassins after Jasnah-she's dangerously close to exposing the ardents.

Anyone can use them. They are just rare, and it's culturally bad to have a non-priest doing it.

Why?

EDIT: I am terribly sorry if I come off as brusque.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Aashyma

[CrazyRioter]

I get the feeling there aren't that many of those fabrials, which is why not that many people, even among the ardents have one. They were made sometime in the past and the method to make them has since been lost. And they are considered to be holy artifacts which is why only the ardents are allowed to use them.

[Satsuoni]

I get the feeling there aren't that many of those fabrials' date=' which is why not that many people, even among the ardents have one. They were made sometime in the past and the method to make them has since been lost. And they are considered to be holy artifacts which is why only the ardents are allowed to use them.

[/quote']

Very true. In fact, Jasnah has expliciteky mentioned (and I assume that she has researched the matter much better than we ever could), that, as far as she knows, all ardents use fabrials, and these fabrials were made to mimic the power of Radiants (like Jasnah and Shallan). So when the Radiants were gone, the secrects were probably lost.

[Musicspren]

Responses to each point (none of these are direct contradictions, just challenges).

1 and 2. Just because anyone could use them doesn't mean anyone has the skills to. It may require training to use soulcasting fabrials. For example, almost anyone on Earth could play an oboe, but most people have not trained to be able to use that ability. Soulcasting fabrials may also be difficult (and/or expensive) to make, so there may not be many in existence. And, as Zas has mentioned, there are the cultural issues.

3. There is job security in preventing the instruction manual from being widely distributed.

4. If the ancients didn't have fabrials, why would the moderns have them if they weren't actually doing something? If Dalinar is correct, they aren't doing it to imitate the ancients. Although it is possible that someone invented them simply to cover what they were actually doing, that assumes everyone who begins soulcasting is found by the White Tower another Soulcaster and told to act like she is using a fabrial. And obeys.

Edit: Fixed grammar.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Musicspren

[Aashyma]

Responses to each point (none of these are direct contradictions, just challenges).

1 and 2. Just because anyone could use them doesn't mean anyone has the skills to. It may require training to use soulcasting fabrials. For example, almost anyone on Earth could play an oboe, but most people have not trained to be able to use that ability. Soulcasting fabrials may also be difficult (and/or expensive) to make, so there may not be many in existence. And, as Zas has mentioned, there are the cultural issues.

3. There is job security in preventing the instruction manual from being widely distributed.

4. If the ancients didn't have fabrials, why would the moderns have them if they weren't actually doing something? If Dalinar is correct, they aren't doing it to imitate the ancients. Although it is possible that someone invented them simply to cover what they were actually doing, that assumes everyone who begins soulcasting is found by the White Tower another Soulcasters and told to act like she is using a fabrial. And obeys.

What if that is what the Ghostbloods are? Natural Soulcasters who have banded together?

It would explain why they wanted Jasnah dead.

I admit it's a very flimsy theory and I am probably over thinking this.

[Argent]

I don't see how that theory makes them more or less likely to kill Jasnah. If she is another natural Soulcaster, I would imagine their first course of action would be to recruit her.

[Aashyma]

I don't see how that theory makes them more or less likely to kill Jasnah. If she is another natural Soulcaster, I would imagine their first course of action would be to recruit her.

Disguising the Soulcasters as ardents ensures that no one looks too closely at their abilities.

Jasnah however is a heretic-if she got suspicious, she won't be easily assuaged with expanations of sacredness.

[Musicspren]

What if that is what the Ghostbloods are? Natural Soulcasters who have banded together?

I like that idea. You would have to show that Kabsal is one, but that isn't unreasonable. It would explain why even when Shallan's father's fabrial was "fixed", it didn't work for Shallan. It may well be that we have never seen a real Soulcasting fabrial (although I suspect they exist).

I am not convinced that the Ghostbloods have managed to find all natural Soulcasters and either kill them or convince them to pretend to use a fabrial soon enough that no one ever figured out the truth, however. We know that the angle-headed things Shallan draws are a type of spren; what if "normal" Soulcasting fabrials trap them somehow?

[Satsuoni]

TO Musicspren - probably that is how all fabrials work. That would possibly explain why there are so few of these fabrials around - maybe you have to actually see/detect one to trap it, and these are the kind of spren largely invisible to most people

[Musicspren]

TO Musicspren - probably that is how all fabrials work. That would possibly explain why there are so few of these fabrials around - maybe you have to actually see/detect one to trap it, and these are the kind of spren largely invisible to most people

That's very true. If only a natural Soulcaster could make Soulcasting fabrials, they would stay very rare. If that is the case (or even if it isn't), I wonder who made the Soulcasting fabrials. For that matter, even if all Soulcasting fabrials are a ruse, as Aashyma proposes, who came up with that ruse and how did it become so widely accepted?

[Sunblesser]

TO Musicspren - probably that is how all fabrials work. That would possibly explain why there are so few of these fabrials around - maybe you have to actually see/detect one to trap it, and these are the kind of spren largely invisible to most people

That's very true. If only a natural Soulcaster could make Soulcasting fabrials, they would stay very rare. If that is the case (or even if it isn't), I wonder who made the Soulcasting fabrials. For that matter, even if all Soulcasting fabrials are a ruse, as Aashyma proposes, who came up with that ruse and how did it become so widely accepted?

interesting idea about the spren. the function of the angleheads, or 'truthspren' seems to be to grant access to shadesmar. trapping them in a gem could take away the need to offer a truth in order to be allowed into shadesmar, making it just a matter of offering the stormlight in your fabrial to the spren of whatever you're trying to change.

this would still make soulcasting a conspiracy of sorts, perpetuated by whoever it was that first figured out how to trap truthspren. which could be whoever founded the ghostbloods, or perhaps one of the heralds (just spit-balling with that one).

if truthspren were trapped in fabrials to create modern soulcasters, then i wonder if other kinds of spren, such as honorspren, could be trapped to create fabrials that grant windrunning powers, and if that's what szeth's oathstone is.

either way, they're kind of starting to seem rather sinister, when considered in that light.

[CrazyRioter]

I think it's quite possible that one might be able to create a fabrial that allows the user to duplicate windrunning powers. I don't know if Szeth's oathstone is such a thing as he doesn't normally carry it with him, it's normally in the hands of his 'master'.

[Asha'man Logain]

I think it's quite possible that one might be able to create a fabrial that allows the user to duplicate windrunning powers. I don't know if Szeth's oathstone is such a thing as he doesn't normally carry it with him, it's normally in the hands of his 'master'.

I firmly believe that fabrials could be made to do anything a Knight Radiant could do. Further it seems to me as if fabrials can be made to do things even the KR couldn't do. Remember when one of the KR from dalinar's vision uses a fabrial to heal? Obviously this is something either she couldn't do on her own, or that the fabrial made easier for her to do. I think with enough experimentation fabrials can do anything.

I look at fabrials as technology. It is something highly specialized or educated people are needed to produce, but once made anyone can use them. The magic however, requires special people (those acting in accordance with whatever shard gives them power)and grants them only specific powers. These people, with practice, are likely far more powerful than a fabrial, but also far more limited in scope and rarer as well.

[Wispsy]

it seemeed like the KR who was healing was using a large gem instead of a fabrial, esp considering dalinar saw this and claimed they have no fabrials

It seems likely that soulcasters which work do only require a tap on the gem to work, kabsal seems to believe this and he is a member of the only two groups we know to use soulcasters (ardentry and ghostbloods)and it is often hinted at before she learns this that they are much simpler then they appear.

as the KR fell it would make sense for some people who are familiar with them but not part of the order (or stayed behind after all the others left or prepared before they did or even perhaps later someone just stumbled upon how to do it) to make a small number, perhaps left to the vorin religious leaders at the time or summit. The ability to soulcast seems rather important when the land almost everywhere is fill with rock and shells so they could have been left to those who would "use it right", since then the religion has gained large amounts of power then lost it, but still retain control over soulcasters and so maintain their position by not giving away the secrets and letting any1 use it(especially if they cannot make more which i do not know if they can).

those like jasnah and shallan who have the ability themselves are unlikely to be common and likely want to keep it to themselves or die trying to figure it out (who knows what may have happened to shallan has jasnah not come picked her out of the sea of beads!)

it seems unlikely that every ardent who uses a soulcaster has this ability and has kept it secret for thousands of years whilst constantly recruiting every person born who can do it!

the fact that shallans doesnt work yet seemed to for her father could literally just be that the spren escape as it was cut, or something similar.

[junior]

A couple of items -

First is that the idea that Soulcasters are faking is brought up within the text (Shallan asks about it), but Jasnah seems convinced that's not what's happening. She's certain that the fabriels work just as advertised. As someone who can fake the use of a fabriel and who has an inquisitive mind, you'd expect her to have fully researched the idea that the fabriel users were all faking it. And as someone who fakes it herself, she'd know what to look for if she wanted to discover a fraud.

Second is a curious coincidence. Shallan kills her father. Presumably her father's fabriel is damaged during a fight between the two of them (that seems the most likely explanation). And a short time later, Shallan learns that she can soulcast. Is it possible that the damage to the fabriel somehow allowed her to receive her ability? Perhaps the spren escaped the fabriel and attached itself to Shallan?

[hoser]

I like where this thread is going. I just want to throw in a few thoughts.

interesting idea about the spren. the function of the angleheads, or 'truthspren' seems to be to grant access to shadesmar. trapping them in a gem could take away the need to offer a truth in order to be allowed into shadesmar, making it just a matter of offering the stormlight in your fabrial to the spren of whatever you're trying to change.

I wonder about the idea of a quid pro quo regarding access to Shadesmar. If one had to reveal a new deep secret truth about themselves every time, it would be challenging to go very often and likewise to soulcast/transform. My theory is that the truth is needed to strengthen the (Nahel) bond with this particular type of spren. This seems similar to Kaladin's slave days, when Syl was asking Kaladin about himself. If this theory is correct, once the bond develops to a certain point, the spren may not require a new truth for every soulcast/transformation. Eventually, to progress as a Radiant, appropriate ideals would need to be committed to.

Another point is about the soulcasting/transformation that Jasnah does for Taravangian. I assumed that the king asked Jasnah to do the soulcasting because he didn't have access to a Soulcaster of his own. But his agent that talks to Szeth in Chapter 28 does:

The chained gemstone on the man's palm flashed. The wall vanished, turned to smoke. A Soulcaster.

It's possible that the situation is as it seems, and there just weren't any Soulcasters available, but given what we know about Taravangian, there are other possibilities. Did the stone that blocked the room fall naturally? Was it a ploy to understand Jasnah's Soulcasting capabilities and maybe whether she is using the fabrial?

[name_here]

Theory: There are soulcasting fabrials, but the "high end" ones are all fake. It's mentioned that the lower-end soulcasters can only manage one transformation, and fabrials all seem to do one thing. There might also be ones that can manage three transformations that are essentially three normal fabrials welded together and are what Jasnah's fake is modelled off. Tapping the gemstone to produce an effect is essentially in line with most fabrial interfaces.

Alternately, the high-end "fabrials" are actually what I'll call Shardcasters, and come from wherever the Blade and Plate come from.

[FeatherWriter]

I'm in line with the "Oboe" theory. The fabrials exist and can be used by anyone, but it takes training. I mean, look at some of the fabrial Soulcastings in the book. Domes and buildings in the warcamps are Soulcast directly from the air. Seems like it would take a lot of skill to make something like that. How do you make sure that you're soulcasting a dome from the air and not just a brick or something else? Practice and skill.