Are There Any Herald Spren?

[Confused]

I raised this question in another thread, but thought it deserved a broader audience: Why haven't we seen any Herald spren? The Heralds are as much an idea as Honor or Cultivation. Even though the Heralds are  human, one would think that through the Vorin religion they've become idealized and should have become personified by the spren. If the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, so-called "Godspren" (at least in this Forum), personify Honor and Cultivation (at least in part), why aren't there spren personifying each of the Heralds?

 

Or maybe there are...Can "maybe-Taln" actually be a Taln-spren that's found a human warrior to bond with? That might explain "Taln's" confusion - his spren just hasn't adjusted to the Physical Realm yet. The human host might have lost his own memories, perhaps in a western Roshar battle, since there seems to be an ongoing war there.So all he's got is his spren trying to figure "Taln"-things out on his own. I don't know whether the host's abnormally quick reflexes are natural to him or spren/Stormlight-enhanced, and I assume he would have had his own shardblade, since it's clearly neither an Honorblade or a spren-blade.

 

Or maybe it IS Taln who's been bonded by his own spren?

 

Not really pushing the Taln-spren idea - it requires a lot of twisting of what we know to shoehorn it into something plausible - but it does seem odd that we haven't encountered a Herald spren. Thoughts?

[Bloodfalcon]

I don't think this is really how spren work. We don't see spren embodying the idea of specific people, just feelings and concepts. The spren that exist with the intent of imitating the Heralds are the spren associated with Surgebinding. They exist to imitate what the Heralds do. I don't think you'll get much more than that. 

But Honor and Cultivation are Intents. An Honorspren would be associating itself with the set of values that Honor holds, or at leas the Intent. It's not really related to the actual person holding the Shard.

[hoser]

What an interesting thought. 

I don't have a good reason for it, but spren creation doesn't seem to work like that.  The Stormfather apparently not exist until Tanavast was separated from the Shard (stopped being the Almighty).  The Nightwatcher is not the same as Cultivation apparently.  I guess that Cultivation could have created the Nightwatcher as a spren or the difference in ideas between the Nightwatcher allow the Nightwatcher to exist as a spren (assuming the Nightwatcher really is a spren). 

I speculate that while the "bead" of a living being exists in the cognitive realm, a distinct spren is not created.  Only when the concept doesn't have a "target" does the spren get created.  Otherwise, there would be multiple Stormfathers for example.  If this unfounded speculation is true, then the Heralds have beads on the cognitive realm that serve as the targets for thoughts of the Heralds, and the Heralds do not have separate spren.  The Nightwatcher would then exist as a target for ideas of the Nightwatcher.  If the Nightwatcher ceased to exist, would a spren be created?  OTOH, there a multitude of windspren.  Are they the result of different cognitive being thinking different things at different times about different winds?

Just speculating.  I know nothing.

 

Edit: gramur

Edited May 19, 2014 by hoser

[Moogle]

I imagine there are Taln-spren around. It (he?) probably even rules a spren city or something. The issue is that something that there being something "Talnish" or "Shallashish" is quite rare, so while there's enough of a Cognitive focus on the Heralds on Roshar to make these Heraldspren, it's unlikely there's ever something big enough to draw these spren to the Physical for people to see them.

 

The only Herald-spren I don't see there being is probably Jezrien, who is mixed up with the Stormfather. Hard to say, though.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Confused]

General comment on spren: I think spren are initially an undifferentiated mass of cognition-reflective entities. As cognitive beings (humans, listeners, maybe others we haven't seen yet) form thoughts, specific spren through some process differentiate themselves to reflect that thought. Pattern's explanation to Shallan of the meaning of "table" is a good example. A "table" can be conceptualized in many different ways - even the idea of a table "leg" is a human construct. But because humans perceive this object as a "table," "table spren" are formed.

 

The Cognitive Realm is like Bishop Berkeley's philosophy that nothing exists except as it is perceived in an individual's mind. I think that Brandon's emphasis on the importance of perception in the Cosmere (or at least on Roshar) owes much to Bishop Berkeley.

 

Bloodfalcon and Hoser: It is the idea of each Herald and what they represent that would cause a Herald spren to form, not the Herald's human "beingness." All Vorin religion adherents collectively conceptualize each Herald a certain way. That should result in Herald spren forming. It is exactly like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, which personify certain other concepts, as I discuss in this post. And I believe that at least the Stormfather predates Honor's arrival on Roshar. A Shard's intent has nothing to do with it except to the extent humans conceptualize that intent in a certain way, allowing spren to form to personify that conceptualization.

 

Moogle: You raise an interesting question - what DOES cause spren to seek out a human host in the Physical Realm? Most "sapient" spren we've seen are actively concerned about the next Desolation. Other spren "leak out" according to Jasnah. (Pattern is the one who uses the word "sapience" to describe what he hopes to achieve by entering the Physical Realm. "Sapience" means wisdom, to be distinguished from "sentience," which means the ability to sense or perceive. I don't know if Pattern's goal is universal among spren seeking the Physical Realm, but I find his phrasing more than interesting.)

 

I don't think the rarity of a host is relevant, since Syl searched the world looking for Kaladin for quite a while. She found him only with the help of the windspren.

 

So what would a Taln-spren want in a host? Bloodfalcon is correct in thinking that the Divine Attributes of "Dependable/Resourceful" are what attract KR-spren, not Herald-spren. Maybe the additional aspects of "great warrior-ness" (inventing words is so much fun...) or near-supernatural reflexes, size and strength? Maybe a deep anxiety over the impending Desolation? Some combination?

 

I don't know. I think the best possibility is that the spren bonded with Taln himself, after Taln returned with a lost memory. It would be ironic if Taln's memory loss is permanent and it is the spren, over time remembering what it knew in Shadesmar, that forms Taln's personality.

 

Anyway, as I said in the OP, I'm not pushing the Taln-spren idea. I just think there should be Herald spren on Roshar, and we haven't seen any yet.

[Seloun]

I'm inclined to think that the Stormfather and (maybe) the Nightwatcher are exceptions rather than a class. Honor and Cultivation are pretty special above and beyond even the Heralds. The Stormfather also describes himself as a spren of Honor more as an analogy than an exact representation. Based on how Estonai describes the Stormfather, the Stormfather as an independent entity appears to have existed before Honor in any case (otherwise I'm not sure how he becomes a 'traitor') and mostly likely existed as something somewhat different before becoming Honor's Splinter (or decided to work with Honor).

 

As to why the spren bond with humans, I suspect it has the same answer as to why spren e.g. inhabit greatshells or Parshendi. My guess is that it's somehow related to the lifecycle of the spren - somehow their maturation process or reproduction cycle requires bonding and acting in the Physical realm. The Nahel bond sprens are essentially mutated Rosharian spren that have adapted to bonding with humans instead of Rosharian natives. But the bond with humans works differently from with Rosharian lifeforms - the Rosharian bond appears to provide the spren with much more control over their host compared to the Nahel bond (this may be why the KR can kill their spren, which we haven't seen an analogue in any Rosharian bonded creatures).

 

I think Pattern's answer is essentially a narrower form of that - he can't 'advance' without bonding a human and progressing along the spren equivalent of a lifecycle.

[Confused]

Seloun, your posts never fail to intrigue (and I mean that sincerely). Spren have a life cycle that includes reproduction? Nahel bond spren have mutated? And you've talked about "bond-farming" on other threads. I love it! You are a very clever and insightful fellow!

 

I've changed several of my views because of your analyses, and I think the nature of spren is an important one to engage on.Spren seem to me to be central to the SA in a way that Seons (for example) are not to Elantris. If we can understood exactly what spren can and can't do, and why, we'll understand a lot more of what's really happening in this series.

 

So, with that said...

1. I did not mean to suggest that Herald-spren would be of the same "class" as the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher, if you mean by "class" categories like the Cryptics or honorspren, etc. I merely cited these two as examples of how spren are "formed" through human conceptualization. I just think Herald spren, like all spren, would be formed by human conceptualization of each Herald. I stated my specific views on the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, and how they became what they are, in this post. I agree with you that before the arrival of Honor, the listener's conception of the Stormfather as the "Rider of the Storms" created a spren with those characteristics. Subsequent human conceptualization of the Stormfather as related to the Almighty changed the Stormfather's nature, which changed even more when the Stormfather became Honor's sliver..
2. I described in Post #5 above my own theory about what spren are and how they are "formed." WoB somewhere compares the Cognitive Realm to Carl Jung's idea of the "Collective Unconscious." (I think it was WoB; it might have been someone posting - I'm beginning to feel like Taln with my own aging memory failures...In any event, it seems like a fair analogy.) I think of spren "maturation" as undifferentiated tissue differentiating into specialized tissue, much as animal embryos grow. Spren become the ideas that humans both conceive and perceive, as I discussed above. I don't think it's necessary for spren to bond in the Physical Realm except to the extent some spren want sentience or sapience.
3. WoB does state (this time I'm sure) that spren are necessary for land-based Greatshells to exist without collapsing under their own weight. Brandon further said that such spren are unnecessary for sea-based Greatshells, presumably because water's buoyancy supports them. In the chasm scene, spren exited the Chasmfiend after its death; maybe "physical support" spren was all there was. I don't believe that such spren were "controlling" the Chasmfiend, and we've seen no evidence of that. But Kaladin does see two huge creatures.walking the plateaus during the Highstorm, brilliantly aglow with Stormlight. At first I thought they might have been Unmade, but now I think they were Chasmfiends that, through some spren bond, were absorbing Stormlight. Since Kaladin describes the Chasmfiend as appearing to possess a "malevolent intelligence," it makes one wonder what the role of Chasmfiends, with their spren bonds, will be in the future. Friend or foe?
4. My last thought, and one I've been pondering, is the relationship between perception and reality on Roshar. Perception seems to have a big impact, whether in controlling the size of a flamespren, or the self-perception of an arm or a brand, or how long it takes to summon a shardblade. How far can this relationship be pushed? Will it be possible for a KR to fight like Neo in The Matrix, unbound by any restrictions, able to use any Surge? I look forward to finding out.

P.S. - One more post and I'll be in double-digits! Hooray!

 

P.P.S. - Apologies to all if this post is rambling, repetitive and/or snarky - it's way past my bedtime...

Edited May 20, 2014 by Confused

[Bloodfalcon]

Bloodfalcon and Hoser: It is the idea of each Herald and what they represent that would cause a Herald spren to form, not the Herald's human "beingness." All Vorin religion adherents collectively conceptualize each Herald a certain way. That should result in Herald spren forming. It is exactly like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, which personify certain other concepts, as I discuss in this post. And I believe that at least the Stormfather predates Honor's arrival on Roshar. A Shard's intent has nothing to do with it except to the extent humans conceptualize that intent in a certain way, allowing spren to form to personify that conceptualization.

I think you may have slightly misunderstood why I said those things. It's hard to put into words, so it's my fault, but I was saying that I think those spren already exist, but they didn't turn out the way you are thinking of. For example, Jezrien displays leadership and protection, and he can Surgebind Adhesion and Gravitation. We have a spren that values leadership and protection specifically, and allows Surgebinding of Adhesion and Gravitation - Syl. I think that would be almost the same thing as a "Jezrienspren" if there was ever to be one. I think the Stormfather is going to be a special case in the world of spren. We already know there won't be more than a couple like him. Either way, it is a spren that might act in the same way as Honor did, but it's really just another spren that grants Surgebinding, like Syl. They both effect the world in their own way, have a physical interpretation of themselves that appears as a human form, and grant Surgebinding. 

My point was that Taln-spren exist, and we will see them when we have a Stoneward.

[Seloun]

Re: Confusion (the pronoun):

 

1: What I meant by the 'class' thing here is that most likely, the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher are both Splinters of (or is otherwise strongly imbued by) a Shard; I don't think they're a good example of what to expect from spren in general. We haven't seen a spren that has taken on the persona of anyone yet - even the Stormfather, who's probably the closest to that description we've seen, is pretty distinguishable from Tanavast. It's unclear what 'Taln-ness' would be if it didn't somehow encompass Taln's personality - just taking on the associated virtues seems somewhat indistinguishable from the Stoneward equivalent of the Honorspren.

 

2: How spren evolve and mature/change in personality is still an open question, certainly, but we do know that bonding appears to grant spren sentience (or sapience, or some sort of what we'd probably call cognitive capacity) in the Physical realm. Also, while it's not explicit, it certainly seems like spren _like_ being bonded or otherwise find it important (otherwise, why risk death? Or, why bond at all?). It might be something like the spren encouraging a certain trait in the Physical is reflected in the Cognitive as more 'undifferentiated' spren becoming that type of spren (which seems pretty reasonable), which effectively is reproduction of a sort. It's also probably worth considering that if Jasnah and Shallan are correct, there are at least two major categories of spren (effectively Honor-based and...I'm not sure if it's Cultivation or Adolnasium-based) which may operate under different principles.

 

3: 'Controlling' is not precisely the right term, I think, but instead a symbiosis (consider Estonai and her description of what bonding is like for Parshendi). Also, are you sure about the WoB? The closest I can find is

 

 

Q:  Do all greatshells have spren?
A:  In order to survive with the science that I built, the greatshells almost all require some sort of spren to keep them from collapsing. (I suspect greatshells in the water may not require them.)

 

and I presume the statement in parenthesis is an aside by the questioner rather than WoB (also, not requiring <> does not possess). We do know that aquatic greatshells, in at least one case do pupate in a similar manner as the Shattered Chasm greatshells, though this is pretty indirect, several-steps-removed evidence that they may also have a similar relationship with spren. Chull may also be effectively Parshmen-ized greatshells (i.e. native rosharian life somehow detached from spren symbiosis).

 

4: Well, the interesting thing to note is that in all of those cases (restrictions on healing, restrictions on changing form, restriction on how long a Blade takes to summon) what is demonstrated is _not_ new capabilities, but rather not using an existing, demonstrated capability. This is different from e.g. assuming perception can remove restrictions as well as add them.

 

I'd also assume that in those cases they are effectively self-imposed; this is certainly the case for the human cases, while the flamespren example is a bit more roundabout. Somehow the flamespren appears to be aware of a semantic connection between a written figure and the measurement made of itself by a sentient being. Note that just measurement is not enough - it has to be written down, which implies that it's not necessarily just a matter of thinking really hard about it. There's something about the action of recording the value in a (semi-)permanent manner that removes the ability of the flamespren to change sizes. It's unclear that this is a matter of perception (in which case it should occur before it's written down) as opposed to...archival? I don't have a good grasp of an alternative justification (if those researchers were _really_ serious, they could measure->write->kill the people who measured and wrote and see if the flamespren change shapes...alas, restrictions on human experimentation).

 

Also, Re: P.S.: You mean triple-digits...

 

Edit: Some funny flamespren experiments:

1) What happens if two people measure the flamespren at different times, get different values, but both of them write their measurements down (after both measure)?

1a) Does it matter the order they write down their measurements?

 

2) What happens if a second person measures a 'fixed' flamespren with a different instrument, gets a different value (I can't imagine measuring the height of a flickering flamespren is an exactly reproduceable activity) and writes it down?

 

3) Does bounding the height of the flamespren also bound its width or size in other dimensions?

 

4) How long is the measurement valid for? I.e. what happens if a week passes between measurement and writing down?

4a) Does this provide a means of identifying a *specific* spren much later?

 

5) What happens if you measure the measurement? I.e. note the measurement as it's written down (specifically noting that it's the size of the flamespren), destroy the original measurement document (freeing the flamespren), then re-write the value.

 

6) Are measurements good for any number of writings? i.e. write down the measurement (locking), destroy the measurement document (freeing), then write down the same measurement again (???)

6a) Are measurements multi-locks? i.e. write down the measurement twice (locking), destroy one (???).

6aa) Does the order matter?

Edited May 21, 2014 by Seloun

[Confused]

Bloodfalcon: Perhaps I too stated my point inelegantly, but I understood (and understand) you to mean that the Nahel bond spren ARE "Herald spren." I did think there might be something different about Herald spren, but you and Seloun have persuaded me otherwise. From now on, following your lead, I will call spren that bond with KR "Herald spren" generically, and call specific order spren the name of the Herald patron of that order followed by "spren."

 

Two interesting things about this: First is the WoR Chapter 42 epigraph, where Ishar "caused organization to be thrust upon [men and] would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." Since Herald spren seem by their nature to be limited to the same two Surges as each patron Herald, then it appears to be Ishar, and not Nohadon through the in-world Way of Kings, who imposed "precepts and laws" on the KR, strengthening their bonds only in proportion to their oaths or (in the Lightweavers' case) self-understanding. Ishar may have borrowed Nohadon's ideas (we don't know this for certain yet), but Ishar was the one who mandated them.

 

Second, while Syl said she is unique, we know that other Herald spren are not. There are many Cryptics, many Whatever-Spren-Wyndle-Is, and many Whatever-Spren-Ivory-Is. Wyndle's Ring chose him specifically to bond with Lift, who herself was chosen specifically by the Nightwatcher. But the Stormfather did not want Syl to bond with Kaladin, Ivory's peers did not want him to bond with Jasnah, and Pattern simply wanted to be a scholar (or so he says). You'd think every Herald spren by their very nature would feel compelled to bond with KR candidates. Now that Dalinar is a Bondsmith, bound to the Stormfather, I wonder if we’ll see more Herald spren seek out more KR candidates.

 

Seloun: "Re: 'Confusion' (the pronoun)"? Do you mean my pseudonym "Confused" (my perennial state, just ask anyone who knows me...)? Or are you using the word "Confusion" as a pronoun for my arguments?

 

Regarding your paragraph 3, the idea that "Rosharian spren" (that is, not Nahel spren) have greater control over Rosharian life than the Nahel bond gives spren over humans comes from your Post #6 above: "But the bond with humans works differently from with [sic] Rosharian lifeforms - the Rosharian bond appears to provide the spren with much more control over their host compared to the Nahel bond..." I"m okay with "symbiosis" instead, as you suggest, but then the Nahel bond is symbiotic as well.

 

I don't know who made the statement about the aquatic greatshells, but Brandon was clear that almost all greatshells require spren to keep from collapsing. I agree that doesn't mean that other spren don't also bond with them.

 

And I love your analogy that “chulls are to greatshells as Parshmen are to Parshendi.” Chull Revolution!!!

 

Good observation regarding perception limiting what Stormlight can do. Lopen is an interesting case: does he prove that Stormlight can not just repair but actually replace a body part? In any event, while the cited examples probably prove the correctness of your observation, they don’t necessarily disprove mine; I’ll wait for more evidence. The idea of a Neo on Roshar is just too cool to give up on…

 

I very much appreciate your and Falconblood’s responses. They are well-reasoned and do much to clarify the nature of spren. Thanks, both of you!

[hoser]

Bloodfalcon: ...

Second, while Syl said she is unique, we know that other Herald spren are not. There are many Cryptics, many Whatever-Spren-Wyndle-Is, and many Whatever-Spren-Ivory-Is. Wyndle's Ring chose him specifically to bond with Lift, who herself was chosen specifically by the Nightwatcher. But the Stormfather did not want Syl to bond with Kaladin, Ivory's peers did not want him to bond with Jasnah, and Pattern simply wanted to be a scholar (or so he says).

...

I believe Syl claims to be the only honorspren that crossed over, implying that there are others who did not.  Wyndle spoke of honorspren also, so I thingk there are more honorspren. 

IIRC, the Cryptics let Pattern go as a sort of experiment and other cryptics were around when Shallan was interacting with him in tWoK.  There were other "oilspren" involved when Jasnah and Ivory were interacting also.  I conclude that only the Stormfather's prohibition on bonding was absolute, albeit unenforceable. 

[Seloun]

Seloun: "Re: 'Confusion' (the pronoun)"? Do you mean my pseudonym "Confused" (my perennial state, just ask anyone who knows me...)? Or are you using the word "Confusion" as a pronoun for my arguments?

 

 

That would be me confusing 'Confusion' with 'Confused'. Somewhat ironic, really.

 

Regarding your paragraph 3, the idea that "Rosharian spren" (that is, not Nahel spren) have greater control over Rosharian life than the Nahel bond gives spren over humans comes from your Post #6 above: "But the bond with humans works differently from with [sic] Rosharian lifeforms - the Rosharian bond appears to provide the spren with much more control over their host compared to the Nahel bond..." I"m okay with "symbiosis" instead, as you suggest, but then the Nahel bond is symbiotic as well.

 

Right - I still think it's probably accurate to say that the Rosharian bond is not the same as the Nahel bond, and that the Rosharian bond does apply more control over the bondee (assuming the spren is the bonder), just that it's probably not absolute control, depending on the degree of self-possession of the host. We have examples of how the bonding affects Parshendi:

 

Eshonai had tried painting. She couldn’t think the right way, couldn’t grasp the abstraction needed to create art. Warform was a good form , versatile. It didn’t impede thought, like mateform did. As with workform , you were yourself when you were warform. But each had its quirks. A worker had difficulty committing violence—there was a block in the mind somewhere. That was one of the reasons she liked the form. It forced her to think differently to get around problems.

 

Neither form could create art . Not well, at least. Mateform was better, but came with a whole host of other problems. Keeping those types focused on anything productive was almost impossible. There were two other forms, though the first— dullform— was one they rarely used. It was a relic of the past, before they’d rediscovered

 

The forms generally make a significant, direct impact on the personality of the Parshendi, though it's not a complete control. This is quite different from how the Nahel bond works, where there appears to be no direct personality interface; all of the communication done by the Nahel bondee and the spren is verbal. The Parshendi bond is more intimate or direct than the Nahel bond (sort of like a direct brain interface versus a radio). Estonai's behavior before and after bonding with the stormspren gives us a direct example of how much the Rosharian bond can affect the Parshendi (an argument could be made that being an odiumspren the result is not necessarily representative, but we know that non-odiumspren can have similar if not identical results).

 

We know that the Parshendi forms are the Rosharian bonds (or at least one kind of bond) as expressed by a (presumed) Rosharian native. It's probably not too much of a stretch to extrapolate that all or most native Rosharian bonds work in a similar way (e.g. perhaps there are only a few 'core' variety of greatshells, with the spren bonding providing the differentation in 'form'). For something not so self-aware as one of the Parshendi, the personality transfer is probably pretty close to being complete simply because there's not likely a lot there to conflict with. Chulls are described pretty similarly to Parshmen:

 

 

The lead wagon finally pulled to a stop. The other two lurched to a halt behind it, the red-carapaced chulls fidgeted, their antennae waving back and forth. The box-shaped animals had bulging, stony shells and thick, trunklike red legs. From what Kaladin had heard, their claws could snap a man’s arm. But chulls were docile, particularly domesticated ones, and he’d never known anyone in the army to get more than a halfhearted pinch from one.

 

And if humans enslaved Parshendi, why not Greatshells? It also seems like a simpler explanation to assume that bonding 'evolved' or was created in a single general way on Roshar rather than positing that the bonding is different for each species.