Shardblade vs Honorblade Surgebinding

[Moogle]

We have these WoBs:

 

Q:  What about Kaladin getting sliced with the Shardblade and then being able to rejuvenate.
A:  That is a clue for what is going on with Szeth and his understanding of Shardblades and the Shardblade he has.
Q:  Which is an Honorblade, right?
A:  I can't say, but Szeth says in book one you can't heal a Shardblade wound with Stormlight. There are other very big but subtle discrepancies between what Szeth does and what Kaladin does.

 

 

Q:  Szeth in the prologue of book one says he can't heal from a Shardblade wound, but Kaladin can.  What is the distinction there?
A:  You should be looking to see if you can find other distinctions between what Szeth says and what happens to Kaladin, because there's three or four big inconsistencies.

 

I didn't find any topics devoted purely to discussing what these "three or four" big inconsistencies are, so I'd like to start this one up. Here's my possibilities:

• Szeth thinks Shardblade wounds cannot be healed. Perhaps Honorblades cannot heal Shardblade wounds, but Radiants can.
• Szeth has no issue draining Gavilar's Plate's gems. Perhaps Honorblades can suck Stormlight from Shardplate gems, but Radiants have a hard time with this and cannot normally (as per WoB: "Q:  Elhokar's assassination attempt, the drained spheres from his Plate - was that him draining them, Surgebinding?
  A:  That's a RAFO. Good question. Let me say this. Drawing the Stormlight from an active set of Shardsplate is very difficult to do.").
  Possible mechanism: Stormlight is inhaled by producing a vacuum or low-pressure area for Investiture to flow, and Honorblades (which consume Stormlight from the wielder, resulting in Szeth's lower efficiency) make Surgebinders with one 'pull' Stormlight harder.
• Szeth thinks Stormlight cannot be held with perfect efficiency (unless you're a Voidbringer). I suspect with Shardplate that this is not quite true and that Shardplate allows near-perfect or perfect retention. Other people have written theories on this so I will not go into more detail.
• Szeth thinks he needs ten heartbeats to summon his Honorblade. Kaladin does not, and I suspect Szeth does not. (WoB: "Q:  Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?
  A:  Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember, the characters' perception is very important.")

Anyone disagree or have other possibilities to add? (WoB sources can all be found here, incidentally.)

Edited April 15, 2014 by Moogle

[hoser]

I seem to be making a habit of agreeing with your theses, but quibbling with some details.

We have these WoBs:

 

...

• Szeth has no issue draining Gavilar's Plate's gems. Perhaps Honorblades can suck Stormlight from Shardplate gems, but Radiants have a hard time with this and cannot normally (as per WoB: "Q:  Elhokar's assassination attempt, the drained spheres from his Plate - was that him draining them, Surgebinding?
  A:  That's a RAFO. Good question. Let me say this. Drawing the Stormlight from an active set of Shardsplate is very difficult to do.").
  Possible mechanism: Stormlight is inhaled by producing a vacuum or low-pressure area for Investiture to flow, and Honorblades (which consume Stormlight from the wielder, resulting in Szeth's lower efficiency) make Surgebinders with one 'pull' Stormlight harder.

...

Szeth has to crack open Gavilar's armor to get to them.  He can't draw the stormlight through or lash Shardplate.  I disagree with this one. 

[Moogle]

Szeth has to crack open Gavilar's armor to get to them.  He can't draw the stormlight through or lash Shardplate.  I disagree with this one. 

 

That's fair, but my WoB was in reference to Elhokar sucking Stormlight from his own Shards, which wouldn't involve sucking Stormlight through the Plate, so I don't really know if it's evidence either way. I'd also argue that Gavilar's Shards were still active when Szeth opened them up. I'm not all that confident on the point anyways. I'd give it somewhere a 30% chance of being right.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Fifth of Daybreak]

We have these WoBs:

 

 

I didn't find any topics devoted purely to discussing what these "three or four" big inconsistencies are, so I'd like to start this one up. Here's my possibilities:

• Szeth thinks Shardblade wounds cannot be healed. Perhaps Honorblades cannot heal Shardblade wounds, but Radiants can.

 

A couple more possibilities;

• Along with differences to the Honorblade and Shardblades, there is a difference between a 'live' Shardblade and a 'dead' one, which could mean Radiants couldn't heal a cut from a 'dead' Shardblade
• Something about Kaladin's experience as a surgeon allows him to heal the cut. 

 

 

 

• Szeth thinks he needs ten heartbeats to summon his Honorblade. Kaladin does not, and I suspect Szeth does not. (WoB: "Q:  Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

  A:  Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember, the characters' perception is very important.")

 

I interpreted this as the Spren building the Radiants and Surgebinding around the Honorblades rules, and so I suspect that the Honorblades take ten heartbeats, which might be the only check built into their system (more time to consider what to do with it once summoned? Off topic either way.) And so along with the WoB saying they all became swords after 'dying,' they would also revert to taking 10 heartbeats in order to be summoned, as was the original model. They would revert to what is most comfortable, or natural. Old habits dye hard sort of thing. 

[Arook]

One thing to remember is that live shard blades were based on the honorblades so how the dead ones work is not necessarily like a default setting.

 

It is more likely that Szeths blade does not take 10 heart beats. If you remember Shallan takes 10 heart beats because that is the time she thinks it takes to summon a blade, Pattern takes the time to tell her she does not have to wait I think. It maybe that if a person expects it to arrive after 10 heart beats it won't appear until then. Shard blades being so common the 10 heart beat thing could have changed how a person perceives the function of honor blades. I would bet that a herald can change the shape of their blade like a Radiant can.

 

As for healing a blade cut I can't remember Kaladin does take a different wound from a dead blade at some point right? I can't remember.

 

If not it is possible the type of wound a shard-blade and honor blade make is different in some small way. It could simply be that the amont need to heal that kind of wound is more that he can hold or maybe more that a borrowed honor-blade wielder can use at one time.

[cem]

Another difference is Szeth thinks Shardplate would block his Surgebinding. Obviously not the case for Radiants.

[Moogle]

Kasmir in the Shardblade healing thread noticed this:

 

2. Also on the point of Stormlight healing: in WoK, Szeth comments, with regard to the injuries he'd taken from fighting Gavilar, that "Stormlight healing was far from instantaneous. It would be hours before he recovered." (p. 54; but my copy is weird.) As far as I recall, Kaladin seems to heal from injuries a lot faster. He did spend about two weeks recovering from being hung in the highstorm, but he actually survived, and after that, didn't get Stormlight until Teft brought some spheres. By WoR, when he fights alongside Adolin, he heals from broken legs presumably in the span of minutes. And let's not forget the end of WoR where he heals almost instantly from very bad injuries upon saying the Second Ideal.

 

I'd say this is an inconsistency. Though, Szeth gets stabbed by a spear and doesn't care in WoR, so perhaps he just never held enough Stormlight to experience super-healing?

[PorridgeBrick]

Perhaps Honorblades work like Allomantic Savants– you don't reach full power unless you use it a lot.

[Numb]

Another difference is Szeth thinks Shardplate would block his Surgebinding. Obviously not the case for Radiants.

It could be that current plate blocks surgebinding but actual radiantplate doesn't? I think I read somewhere that the old plate didn't have gems much like old blades don't have gems. 

 

Another option is like Allomancy effecting things in the blood. It's not that it can't, it's more that there's a lot more resistance. The shardplate could be similar in that Szeth Surgebinding just isn't strong enough to overcome the natural resistance plate has but a radiant can do it.

[Arook]

No i believe that plate would prevent any binding involving touch we only ever see the internal stuff. I think there is W oB that shard plate has to much investiture to effect with binding and would prevent the transfer of storm light into some thing.