Theory on Radiants Exact powers

[Zionite]

As you already Know, Radiants have 2 surges. I speculate that this surges can be categorized as a Specialty Surge and a Basic Surge. The Specialty Surge grants the Radiant 2 powers whilst the Basic Surge grants only 1 power

 

Examples

Windrunners have Gravitation as their Specialty Surge so it grants them 2 powers (Basic  Lashing and Reverse Lashing). On the other hand Adhesion is their Basic Surge so it grants them 1 power alone (Full Lashing).

 

Edgedancers have Progression as their Specialty Surge so it grants them 2 powers  (Growth and Regrowth). On the other hand Abrasion is their Basic Surge so it grants them 1 power alone (Slicking).

 

No Radiant orders have the same specialty even if they share surges. For example Windrunners and Skybreakers share the Gravitation surge but Gravitation surge is the specialty surge for Windrunners alone which means Skybreakers specialty will be Division.

 

Using this info we can predict which of an Orders surges is the Specialty or Basic surge. This info lets us know  how many powers each surge will grant to each order. We can further speculate on what this powers are using the info weve been given via books or via Brandons definition of each surge.

 

Using this theory I’ve created a powers list for yet to be revealed order.

 

Order of Skybreakers (Specialty: Divison    Basic: Gravitation)

1. The 1^st Division Power is Destruction-My guess is that this is the power to create miniature earthquakes hence the name skyBREAKERS.

2. The 2^nd Division Power is Decay-I suspect it is the power to cause living things to decay on contact.

3. The Gravitational power is Basic-Lashing.

 

Order of Dustbringers (Specialty: Abrasion , Basic: Division )

1. The 1^st Abrasion Power is Slicking-we saw Lift demonstrate this one.

2. The 2^nd Abrasion Power is likely  related to Burning- Dustbringers manipulate friction to produce burning heat

3. The Division Power is Decay.

 

Order of Truthwatchers  (Specialty: Illumination, Basic: Progression)

1. The 1^st Illumination Power is most likely related to Seeing-Lightweavers are able to manipulate waveforms so that they can see things-even the Future.

2. The 2^nd Illumination power is most likely Lightweaving but my gut says its something else.

3. The Progression power is Regrowth.

 

Order of Lightweavers (Specialty: Transformation, Basic: Illumination )

                1. The  Illumination Power is Lightweaving

                2. The 1^st Transformation Power is Soulcasting

                3. The 2^nd Transformation power is unknown but I suspect It involves transforming ones essence into one of the                   essences-Ill call it Selfcasting

 

Order of Elsecallers  (Specialty: Transportation ,Basic: Transformation )

1. The 1^st Transportation Power is Realmatic transition also known as Elsecalling

2. The 2^nd Transportation Power is Motion-My guess is that its will be some form of Telekinesis

3.  The Transformation power is Soul-Casting

 

 

Order of Willshapers (Specialty: Cohesion , Basic: Transportation )

1. The Transportation Power is Elsecalling
2. The 1^st Cohesion Power is likely what I call Shaping.-the power to Harden, Soften , increase Elasticity of objects by manipulating molecular bonds
3. The 2^nd Cohesion Power is likely what I call Bubble- the power to Slow down, accelerate and Freeze objects by manipulating molecular speeds

 

Order of Stonewards  (Specialty:Tension, Basic:Cohesion)

1, The 1^st Tension Power is unknown and I have no guesses. Dont quite understand Tension

2. The 2^nd Tension Power is equally unknown

3. The Cohesion Power is likely what I call Bubble

 

Order of Bondsmiths (Specialty: Adhesion ,Basic: Tension )

1.  The 1^st Adhesion Power is Full Lashing

2.  The 2^nd Adhesion power is Unknown and I have no guesses

3.  The Tension Power is Unknown and I have no guesses

Edited April 15, 2014 by Zionite

[Sylveris]

My biggest problem with your theory (beside how limiting it is, eg. Lightweavers can manipulate sound as well, Elsecallers can range-soulcast [if its not a general soulcasting ability], etc.) is that the names of the abilities we know sound to me like nothing more than a human-given terms, for example growth and regrowth can be seen as the same thing, only applied to different types of organisms, and Basic Lashing can be divided into Self-Lashing and Other-Lashing.

There was also some WoB that two orders that share a surge get roughly the same powers and abilities from it, so a Windrunner and a Skybreaker will get the same abilities from the Gravitation surge.

 

PS. I also think the main-secondery surge thing, if it does exist in some way or another (like in the order of affinity to it) is the other way around, so the main surge for Windrunners is Adhesion, Abrasion for Edgedancers, Illumination for Lightweavers, Transformation for Elsecallers, Division for Dustbringers, etc.

This is supported by both the orders names as well as what we saw from Kaladin, Shallan and Lift (as well as Ym)

[MistLord]

It's a sound enough theory, and I suppose I could support it (despite my initial ideas being that you got the two surges and then a combination of the two). Lightweavers and Elsecallers need to be swapped though. Lightweavers - in their very name - are the masters of illusion. Elsecallers are more likely specialised in Soulcasting due to Jasnah's 'ranged Soulcasting', where she wasn't required to touch it (though from what we've seen of Shallan's POV, it may not be necessary in the first place). 

 

I still feel inclined with my own thoughts however. Basic lashing combines with a full lashing to create a reverse lashing (gravitation + adhesion = mixture), as adhesion is able to force the gravitation to stick to that object (adhesion). Also I think Szeth might have said it used more Stormlight, implying the two surges are present.

 

In the case of Jasnah, I think Elsecalling might be a combination of Transformation and Transportation. Lightweavers may be able to do something really cool when they combine illusions with transportation.

 

Sorry if I don't make sense, I'm a bit tired.

[Zionite]

Thanks 4 d replies guys 

It's a sound enough theory, and I suppose I could support it (despite my initial ideas being that you got the two surges and then a combination of the two). Lightweavers and Elsecallers need to be swapped though. Lightweavers - in their very name - are the masters of illusion. Elsecallers are more likely specialised in Soulcasting due to Jasnah's 'ranged Soulcasting', where she wasn't required to touch it (though from what we've seen of Shallan's POV, it may not be necessary in the first place). 

 

If Lightweavers are specialized in illumination then Trutchwatchers will instead be spcialized in progression.Howver that cant be right because progression belongs to edgedancers.

 

You have to understand that though Radiants are named for  their abilities,their names arent a necssary good indicator to the nature of therir powers or specialty.Example is Windrunners-Their powers dont involve manipulating wind despite what they are named.So the names arent good indicators

 

 

I still feel inclined with my own thoughts however. Basic lashing combines with a full lashing to create a reverse lashing (gravitation + adhesion = mixture), as adhesion is able to force the gravitation to stick to that object (adhesion). Also I think Szeth might have said it used more Stormlight, implying the two surges are present.

 

 

 

Sorry not sure how Gravitation and adhesion would resul in reverse lashing?

 

 

 

PS. I also think the main-secondery surge thing, if it does exist in some way or another (like in the order of affinity to it) is the other way around, so the main surge for Windrunners is Adhesion, Abrasion for Edgedancers, Illumination for Lightweavers, Transformation for Elsecallers, Division for Dustbringers, etc.

This is supported by both the orders names as well as what we saw from Kaladin, Shallan and Lift (as well as Ym)

Like I pionted out earlier the names can be deceptive.

Also Shallan has only learnt 1 surge so shes not a great example.Kaladin and lift are better since they use both surges.Judging fom Kaladins 3 lashings,Gravitation is a Windrunners specailty.Judging form Lift,progression is their specailty

Edited April 15, 2014 by Zionite

[Sylveris]

The fact that Kaladin and Lift got more named abilities from one surge that from the other doesn't mean that they got a better affinity to said surge. Kaladin learned to use Adhesion well enough before he was able to use Gravitation properly. Shallan had problems trying to get Transformation to work properly, succeeding only two known times (the goblet to blood and the ship), but was able to use Illumination throughout the whole book (and likely during her childhood, patterns in the gardens, dreams that became real, etc.), Lift was using Abrasion for a long time before her interlude (as stated by Wyndle), but used Regrowth only a few times, with Wyndle's instructions, and used Growth for the first time on Gawk.

 

That being said the biggest problem to your theory is the WoB, that the surges act the same to each order that got them (Gravitation to Windrunners and Skybreakers, etc.), I just don't know how to find the right quote.

 

About Windrunners, wind is created by differences in air pressure between to spots, resulting in the movement of the wind, and pressure and vacuum is exactly what Adhesion is about.

[Zionite]

The fact that Kaladin and Lift got more named abilities from one surge that from the other doesn't mean that they got a better affinity to said surge. Kaladin learned to use Adhesion well enough before he was able to use Gravitation properly. Shallan had problems trying to get Transformation to work properly, succeeding only two known times (the goblet to blood and the ship), but was able to use Illumination throughout the whole book (and likely during her childhood, patterns in the gardens, dreams that became real, etc.), Lift was using Abrasion for a long time before her interlude (as stated by Wyndle), but used Regrowth only a few times, with Wyndle's instructions, and used Growth for the first time on Gawk.

 

 

Ah-now I see the misunderstanding.When I talk about Orders and their specialty I am not reffering to the surge they easily learnt.If I was then yes Windrunners would be adhesion,Lightweavers wold be illumination etc

 

When I talk about an  Orders specialty is all Im reffering to is the surge that grants the most powers.With that definition of specialty Windrunners would be Gravitation,Edgedancers would be progression etc.

 

In fact It occurs to me that the surge that grants the most powers to an order is more difficult to learn than the other.Thats why Windrunners like Kaladin learnt adhesion quicker than Graviataion despite the fact he has 2 Graviattion powers.

 

 

 

About Windrunners, wind is created by differences in air pressure between to spots, resulting in the movement of the wind, and pressure and vacuum is exactly what Adhesion is about.

Windrunners have 3 displayed abilities and not one of them involve winds.2 of those abilities(Reverse Lashing and Basic Lashing) may appear to  be wind related but we know they are Gravity releated.For example when Kal flies hes not actually" riding the winds"-hes simply manipulating gravity around himself.Yet the powers the windrunners posses give them what looks like a mastery  wind hence the name.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Zionite

[Pechvarry]

Lift almost certainly has 4 powers.  When she "climbs" Windle, the observer (who doesn't see him) simply sees her climbing a wall without handholds.  I took this as a Friction surge, and it simply manifests to her as a function of her Spren.  Likewise, Pattern mimics voices but Shallan should be capable of this on her own (as Pattern himself tells her).

[Zionite]

Lift almost certainly has 4 powers.  When she "climbs" Windle, the observer (who doesn't see him) simply sees her climbing a wall without handholds.  I took this as a Friction surge, and it simply manifests to her as a function of her Spren.  Likewise, Pattern mimics voices but Shallan should be capable of this on her own (as Pattern himself tells her).

Not sure that counts as 4 powers for Lift.Wyndle merely uses his own powers to aid her by becoming an invisible aid thats not surgebinding.

 

EDIT

Lightweaving is the manipulation of sound and Light-so voice mimicry should fall under lightweaving.

 

Lightweaving counts as 1 illumination power not 2

Edited April 15, 2014 by Zionite

[Numb]

Lift almost certainly has 4 powers.  When she "climbs" Windle, the observer (who doesn't see him) simply sees her climbing a wall without handholds.  I took this as a Friction surge, and it simply manifests to her as a function of her Spren.  Likewise, Pattern mimics voices but Shallan should be capable of this on her own (as Pattern himself tells her).

 

If it was a surge I think Wyndle will understand it better. His logic is that lift is merely able to touch him in some tangle way which she shouldn't be able to. Wyndle may be wrong but without anymore information it's the best explanation we have.

[hoser]

This is an interestingattempt to predict the structure of abilities.  However, I believe we've already seen a multiplicity of powers that don't fit in this framework.

Kaladin:

• Amplifying his voice to yell to Adolin in the Tower battle seems like an application of pressure that is not one of the three lashings. 
• On several occasions Kaladin has used stormlight to land safely after falling from great heights (when hiding the armor under the bridge in tWoK, for example) This seems like an application of pressure, but is not one of the three named lashings from the Ars Arcanum. 
• Kaladin uses the "winds" to guide him in the six Shardbearer duel and the final battle with Szeth.  This could be another application of the pressure surge. 

These abilities can't really be called lashings, which may be why the author of the Ars Arcanum may not have found out about them.  Alternatively, the Ars Arcanum author has the same original sources of information as Szeth, which may be why neither is apparently aware of the additional Windrunner capabilities. 

 

Szeth seems to have been well trained in the use of the lashings, but not as capable as Kaladin (the above, healing shard-severed limbs, squires, windrunning(?)).  Whether he is limited by his training or the way he acquired his abilities is not clear to me. 

[Moogle]

I do not believe the Surges will be limited in the manner described in the OP. Our only WoB suggests that the use of the individual Surges is the same between Orders, but that each Order can do something special by combining them.

 

 

Q:  Is the crossover surge for each Knight the same?
A:  To an extent, yes.  Each of the combinations make a little bit of a tweak to how things act.  But when you see the Skybreakers affecting gravity it will look much the same as what you saw on the Windrunners.

 

I don't believe there's only three powers. The point is to manipulate aspects of reality - someone with Gravity can manipulate all forms of gravity, so they should get Basic/Reverse Lashings. I believe the term "Three Lashings" is misleading people - it's an in house grouping of the powers of the Windrunners, I think, and not a signal that Windrunners had only three powers. (Kaladin's "force push" against the Parshendi after speaking the Ideal is a suggestion that he can make mini-explosions.)

 

This idea of there being a 'specialty' Surge, a Surge which comes more naturally to each Order, may have something to it. I think our sample size is very small and too conflicted to say for sure, though. Is Shallan's dominant one Lightweaving? Well, maybe, but she involuntarily Soulcasted when she finally drew Pattern back to her, not Lightweave. Both times we see her Lightweave, she was manipulated into it. Pattern makes her do it on the ship, and Hoid makes her do it as a child. It's possible that she did more Lightweaving as a child, though - Pattern heavily implies it.

 

How about Kaladin? Kaladin's first involuntary usage was Gravity (Reverse Lashing on the bridge), but he picked up Adhesion almost immediately, and had issues with Basic Lashings (though he picked up those in like two minutes after seeing Szeth do it once and knowing he could do it).

 

Lift? She practiced both, and Wyndle likely would have taught her to use both at roughly similar times, but we don't even know if he did that. The thing she learns to do on her own is Regrowth, which implies she's naturally quicker to pick that up... but I don't think we can say that, either, because Wyndle told her she could do that, and Surgebinding seems intuitive once you know you canh do something.

 

Dalinar? The only thing he might have done is use Tension when fighting a chasmfiend (so his dominant Surge would be Tension?), and I find it hard to believe, because Shardplate should resist that.

 

In summary, I do think there's subtleties to Surgebinding, but I don't think the OP has found them. I am not convinced the Orders had a dominant/easy Surge, and I do not think they were limited to three powers - Skybreakers should be able to use both Basic and Reverse Lashings, I think.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Moogle

[forgottenimage]

If there's one thing about the Skybreakers that makes sense in regards to their name, it's that they use their Division surge to burst the air, breaking the sky into shockwaves. Maybe explains what happened to the Shattered plains.

Edited April 16, 2014 by forgottenimage

[Islington]

I don't think that they are more specialized in either or. I think it's the combination that defines them, and the emotional tie that comes from each surge's interpretation to others.

 

Kaladin has Adhesion and Gravitation. He pulls men to him (gravitation) and he brings men closer (adhesion). 

 

Nalan has Division and Gravitation. The law unites all under one banner (gravitation), but divides men by their codes into criminals and the just (Division). 

 

Shallan has Transformation and Illumination. As she discovers more about herself (Illumination) she becomes something more (Transformation). 

 

I think the surges mean different things to different people, and that influences how the investiture manifests itself. 

[Mailliw73]

This wouldn't work unless you switched some things around. If, as you say gravity is the Windrunners specialty surge, and Progression is the Edgedancer's, then there are some problems. First, Windrunners and Skybreakers share adhesion, not gravitation. So if Adhesion was the Skybreaker's speciality, and the Dustbringers was division,(or you could rearrange those) that would leave no one with Abrasion as their speciality surge. And then the Bondsmiths would have to also have Gravitation as their specialty surge.

Ignore all of this. I just checked and I was incorrect.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Mailliw73

[Zionite]

Reply in bold

This is an interestingattempt to predict the structure of abilities.  However, I believe we've already seen a multiplicity of powers that don't fit in this framework.

Kaladin:

• Amplifying his voice to yell to Adolin in the Tower battle seems like an application of pressure that is not one of the three lashings. 

   Stormlight enhances the users physical abilities,that includes his voice.

• On several occasions Kaladin has used stormlight to land safely after falling from great heights (when hiding the armor under the bridge in tWoK, for example) This seems like an application of pressure, but is not one of the three named lashings from the Ars Arcanum. 

  Actually it is-Basic Lashing

• Kaladin uses the "winds" to guide him in the six Shardbearer duel and the final battle with Szeth.  This could be another application of the pressure surge. 

This was explained WOB and a bit in WOR. Each order has a gift not related to the surges.With Windrunners its a gift in combat-the winds guide them in battle.With Lightweavers,the gift is Memory.

 

Brandon  let us know that this gifts are not granted by surges but are  supernatural nevertless.Wouldnt explain further but hinted this gifts are important

 

Reply in bold

I do not believe the Surges will be limited in the manner described in the OP. Our only WoB suggests that the use of the individual Surges is the same between Orders, but that each Order can do something special by combining them.

 

It does seem to suggest that-But Im still holding out that Brandon might have been implying differently.Small chance but still

 

I don't believe there's only three powers. The point is to manipulate aspects of reality - someone with Gravity can manipulate all forms of gravity, so they should get Basic/Reverse Lashings. I believe the term "Three Lashings" is misleading people - it's an in house grouping of the powers of the Windrunners, I think, and not a signal that Windrunners had only three powers. (Kaladin's "force push" against the Parshendi after speaking the Ideal is a suggestion that he can make mini-explosions.)

 

The Ars Arcannum suggest that the Windrunners had only three powers.The Force push was just an effect of Kaladin saying the 1st ideal not a surge power.,Just like the rune that appeared when he said the second ideal.

 

 

[hoser]

• Amplifying his voice to yell to Adolin in the Tower battle seems like an application of pressure that is not one of the three lashings. 

   Stormlight enhances the users physical abilities,that includes his voice.

The text specifically describes a release of investiture in association with the event.  That does not happen when he merely runs faster, so it may be a distinct magical action, rather than a physical enhancement. 

 

• On several occasions Kaladin has used stormlight to land safely after falling from great heights (when hiding the armor under the bridge in tWoK, for example) This seems like an application of pressure, but is not one of the three named lashings from the Ars Arcanum. 

  Actually it is-Basic Lashing

 

It can't be a basic lashing for three reasons:

• Kaladin doesn't know how to do basic lashing at that point
• basic lashing is not accompanied by the release of stormlight that accompnies these events
• He walks around normally afterwards, not weightlessly as he would if he had half-lashed himself upward. 

• Kaladin uses the "winds" to guide him in the six Shardbearer duel and the final battle with Szeth.  This could be another application of the pressure surge. 

This was explained WOB and a bit in WOR. Each order has a gift not related to the surges.With Windrunners its a gift in combat-the winds guide them in battle.

Can you please direct me to the quote that specifically says that the Windrunner special ability is wind-guided fighting?  Does he specifically say that it is not pressure-related?  I was not aware of that. 

[Sylveris]

In fact, Brandon said that while each order had spacial unique abilities, the Windrunners' one was not enhanced combat abilities, but rather likely related to their squires (he said we should take a look at the number of squires, or something along thous lines)

[PorridgeBrick]

He never said it wasn't combat ability. He just said that they had an unusual number and strength of squires. There's nothing that says there can't be two abilities.

Q: Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful geolocation thing, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

A: There is something supernatural about those. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at scholars' interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

Q: So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

A: It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with the Order, things that do not add up from simply the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires is abnormal for the Windrunners.

Q: And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

A: Yeah... some Orders don't have them.

Q: But some have more?

A: Yeah.

[Wherethewindgoes]

 

It can't be a basic lashing for three reasons:

• Kaladin doesn't know how to do basic lashing at that point
• basic lashing is not accompanied by the release of stormlight that accompnies these events
• He walks around normally afterwards, not weightlessly as he would if he had half-lashed himself upward.

 

When Shallan and Kaladin fall into the chasm in WoR, Shallan survives the fall too, so I think that's just part of the physical enhancements given by Stormlight.

[Patrick Star]

Elsecallers have the unique ability to soulcast sticks, something that is not possible for Lightweavers.

[hoser]

When Shallan and Kaladin fall into the chasm in WoR, Shallan survives the fall too, so I think that's just part of the physical enhancements given by Stormlight.

"Almost surely"

My point was that it was not a basic lashing.  I take it that you agree.  Is it a side effect of infusing for all surgebinders? Let's consider other instances.

When Kaladin falls with Szeth:

Then he hit.  No preparation, no getting his feet beneath him.  He smacked against cold, wet stone and his vision flashed like lightning.

 

When Kaladin falls with Shallan:

He crashed into the ground at the bottom of the chasm and all went black. 

Swimming through pain.  ...

 

Kaladin and Shallan survive incredible falls, but Kaladin does not do the flash of stormlight landing thing and is injured in both cases.  We don't know what happened to Shallan, but Kaladin's examples seem to show that it is not an automatic stormlight function.  The survival, possibly due to the healing, seems to be automatic.  The stormlight flash safe landing seems to be different, and could be related to the pressure surge. 

[Vasteel]

I'm pretty sure there is a WoB on the subject of their safe landing.

I don't have the exact quote but it was implied that they both had sufficient invested stormlight to survive the fall.

Kaladin forced stormlight through an already weakened link with Syl which severed the bond.