Knight Radiant Ideals

[Kobold King]

"Speak again the ancient oaths..."

 

Easier said than done, Your Almighty-ness. The Ideals of the Knights Radiant are one of the most fascinating and essential aspects of Surgebinding, yet with only a fifth of the Stormlight Archive published, we still don't have information about many of the oaths. The First Ideal is the same for all orders, and at least one order didn't even speak any oaths after the first. Clearly there is a wide range of speculation to be had.

 

As I've seen a great deal of discussion about Ideals, I thought it would be convenient to have a place we can discuss our guesses at length. A place to enter guesses about what oaths an Order might swear, or possibly details on how the Ideals function at their core.

 

Myself, I am currently espousing two possible oaths. WoR spoilers follow:

 

 

As a supporter of the "Adolin is a Dustbringer" theory, I've been watching Adolin Kholin very carefully in an attempt to predict Releaser oaths from his character development. Recent events involving his eyeball-stabbing of a certain Highprince coupled with details about the fear harbored towards Dustbringers have led me to a conclusion.

 

The Second Ideal of the Dustbringers is likely "I will destroy my enemies." I believe that this oath would explain why the average man in the Desolation times feared the Releasers to such an extent--they were basically an entire order composed of Ender Wiggins (<Orson Scott Card reference). If this proves to be the case, Adolin's murderous behavior could actually attract a spren rather than dissuade one.

 

 

 

My second hypothesis is related to the Order of the Skybreakers. Unlike the Dustbringers, with whom they share a Surge, we have a WoB related to the Skybreaker Ideals. At a book signing, Brandon Sanderson confirmed that their Second Ideal is "I will put the law before all else."

 

This oath seems to relate to the primary attribute of the Skybreakers-- "Just". I believe that their Third Ideal may relate to the secondary attribute, "Confident". I thus guess the Second Ideal of the Skybreakers will be "I will not waver in my conviction." This fits with what we know of Darkness/Nale--if anyone is going to swear never to doubt his own actions, it would be a man like Nale. I am less convinced of the accuracy of this guess than the Releaser oath above, but I still believe the guess deserves attention.

 

 

Those are my ideas. I would really like to know what other people think of these potential Ideals, and I would love to see other suggestions for the Dustbringers, Skybreakers, and the other Orders!

 

It's time to speak again the ancient oaths, people!

[PorridgeBrick]

I dunno about your Dustbringer oath. Even the Skybreaker's 2nd Oath has something Honorable about it, even if it can be considerably twisted. Your oath is just plain Odious, however. Maybe put in a clause there so that it's not just "my enemies", and more like "the bad guys" or "the guys that really annoy my lord", since the Dustbringers are Obediant and all?

[Wrath]

I expect that the next Windrunner ideals deal with leading instead of protecting. Something like "I will lead those who are leaderless" which mirrors their Second Ideal.

 

 

I dunno about your Dustbringer oath. Even the Skybreaker's 2nd Oath has something Honorable about it, even if it can be considerably twisted. Your oath is just plain Odious, however. Maybe put in a clause there so that it's not just "my enemies", and more like "the bad guys" or "the guys that really annoy my lord", since the Dustbringers are Obediant and all?

 

Obedient is a weird one, though. I mean if you think about it all the Knights Radiant have to be obedient to their oaths, so something like "I will obey all my oaths" is completely redundant as an ideal.

 

I suspect that the Dustbringers' final ideal is something like "I will not obey an order that is unjust" or something, allowing them a way out of being trapped by their loyalty.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Wrath

[PorridgeBrick]

Eh, the Skybreakers are completely trapped by the law, so I don't see why the Dustbringers can't be trapped completely by their orders. Their attributes are "Brave" and "Obediant". I don't see anything there about justice or morality.

[Wrath]

Eh, the Skybreakers are completely trapped by the law, so I don't see why the Dustbringers can't be trapped completely by their orders. Their attributes are "Brave" and "Obediant". I don't see anything there about justice or morality.

 

The current Skybreakers are probably not the best people to use as an example, since they're most likely corrupted. And if the actual Skybreakers truly did "debate" with the Windrunners then they must have had some wiggle room, because a debate is utterly pointless unless an opinion can be changed.

 

Besides, if a Skybreaker is truly limited by the letter of the law then what happens when there are contradictory laws?

[Baine]

I dunno about your Dustbringer oath. Even the Skybreaker's 2nd Oath has something Honorable about it, even if it can be considerably twisted. Your oath is just plain Odious, however. Maybe put in a clause there so that it's not just "my enemies", and more like "the bad guys" or "the guys that really annoy my lord", since the Dustbringers are Obediant and all?

 

Maybe the Dustbringers are like Nightblood: "I will destroy evil."

 

If that's the case, I would love to see a Dustbringer with Nightblood.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Baine

[PorridgeBrick]

The current Skybreakers are probably not the best people to use as an example, since they're most likely corrupted. And if the actual Skybreakers truly did "debate" with the Windrunners then they must have had some wiggle room, because a debate is utterly pointless unless an opinion can be changed.

Besides, if a Skybreaker is truly limited by the letter of the law then what happens when there are contradictory laws?

The Skybreakers' 2nd Oath is "I will put the law before all else." That sounds like being trapped to me. Sure, the modern ones are corrupted, but in a different way than you're thinking – in Nalan's case, he's perfectly following the letter of the law, but not the intent. Real Skybreakers would probably prioritize the worst criminals, while Nalan just uses the law for his own ends. Real Skybreakers are even more limited– they follow both the letter and spirit of the law.

@Baine

I like the way you think.

Edit: Edgedancer, that is an interesting idea. But how would this anti-Odium clause apply to other orders? Lightweavers, after all, speak truths instead, so that's one exception to the clause already.

Edited April 6, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Edgedancer]

I agree with PorridgeBrick that something along the lines of "I will destroy the enemy of humanity/evil" makes more sense.

The second ideal of the Windrunners makes me think that 3rd ideals might be a kind of "anti-Odium" clause. Meaning that they accept that the ideals are more important than they themselfes and they must do the right thing independent of their preferances. By this pattern Dustbringers 3rd could be "I won´t destroy someone just because I hate them," to prevent them from killing to freely and Skybreakers "I won´t misuse/distort the law for my own ambitions," to prevent, well Nalan´s Skybreakers.

 

My guess then is that the 4rd eiter deals with the interaction with other or the secondary attribute and the 5th either secondary attribute or after the first four ideals give a journey the fifth forms the destination they want to achive, giving a final touch to the order.

[Kobold King]

I dunno about your Dustbringer oath. Even the Skybreaker's 2nd Oath has something Honorable about it, even if it can be considerably twisted. Your oath is just plain Odious, however. Maybe put in a clause there so that it's not just "my enemies", and more like "the bad guys" or "the guys that really annoy my lord", since the Dustbringers are Obediant and all?

Good point, although one of the WoR epigraphs states that the common people of the Desolation era saw little difference between the Releasers and the Voidbringers.

 

Maybe the Dustbringers are like Nightblood: "I will destroy evil."

 

If that's the case, I would love to see a Dustbringer with Nightblood.

I like "I will destroy evil" or "I will destroy the enemies of humanity" as a potential oath. It has a combat-oriented feel, and it still has the potential to link Adolin with their order. I'm also wondering if Szeth could become a Dustbringer, if he recieves the right pushing from a certain sword. It could be argued that Szeth is more "Brave/Obedient" than he is "Just/Confident".

[Wrath]

The Skybreakers' 2nd Oath is "I will put the law before all else." That sounds like being trapped to me. Sure, the modern ones are corrupted, but in a different way than you're thinking – in Nalan's case, he's perfectly following the letter of the law, but not the intent. Real Skybreakers would probably prioritize the worst criminals, while Nalan just uses the law for his own ends. Real Skybreakers are even more limited– they follow both the letter and spirit of the law.

@Baine

I like the way you think.

Edit: Edgedancer, that is an interesting idea. But how would this anti-Odium clause apply to other orders? Lightweavers, after all, speak truths instead, so that's one exception to the clause already.

 

Ah, but the moment you follow the spirit of the law instead of the letter you're moving into the Interpretive Realm. Following both is going to result in you killing your spren pretty quickly. If you can interpret the law then you're not trapped by it. In fact I think that the way Nalan clings to the letter of the law so strongly that he would even let one of his quarries go is a sign of just how broken he is.

 

Good point, although one of the WoR epigraphs states that the common people of the Desolation era saw little difference between the Releasers and the Voidbringers.

 

I like "I will destroy evil" or "I will destroy the enemies of humanity" as a potential oath. It has a combat-oriented feel, and it still has the potential to link Adolin with their order. I'm also wondering if Szeth could become a Dustbringer, if he recieves the right pushing from a certain sword. It could be argued that Szeth is more "Brave/Obedient" than he is "Just/Confident".

 

Again I'd say that's a sign of the people calling themselves Skybreakers being rotten to the core. I wouldn't put much faith in Szeth knowing the Second Ideal of the Skybreakers either - it seems less like a mystical moment of inner revelation than just something he happens to know. Szeth comes with knowledge of the Knights Radiant that other characters lack, which is presumably how he knew the correct names for the Windrunner abilities when an actual Windrunner did not. The Shin likely remember a lot more than the rest of Roshar.

[PorridgeBrick]

Good point, although one of the WoR epigraphs states that the common people of the Desolation era saw little difference between the Releasers and the Voidbringers.

 

I like "I will destroy evil" or "I will destroy the enemies of humanity" as a potential oath. It has a combat-oriented feel, and it still has the potential to link Adolin with their order. I'm also wondering if Szeth could become a Dustbringer, if he recieves the right pushing from a certain sword. It could be argued that Szeth is more "Brave/Obedient" than he is "Just/Confident".

That probably has a lot to do with the red eyes, as well as their surge being the "Surge of Decay and Destruction". If their Oaths were Odious too, I'm pretty sure they would be expelled from the Radiants just on general principle. As it is, life as a Dustbringer must have been awful.

Ah, but the moment you follow the spirit of the law instead of the letter you're moving into the Interpretive Realm. Following both is going to result in you killing your spren pretty quickly. If you can interpret the law then you're not trapped by it. In fact I think that the way Nalan clings to the letter of the law so strongly that he would even let one of his quarries go is a sign of just how broken he is.

 

 

Again I'd say that's a sign of the people calling themselves Skybreakers being rotten to the core. I wouldn't put much faith in Szeth knowing the Second Ideal of the Skybreakers either - it seems less like a mystical moment of inner revelation than just something he happens to know. Szeth comes with knowledge of the Knights Radiant that other characters lack, which is presumably how he knew the correct names for the Windrunner abilities when an actual Windrunner did not. The Shin likely remember a lot more than the rest of Roshar.

Okay, I'll concede some wiggle room there. They still can't outright break it, though. If the Dustbringers had some Oath to obey orders, then there'd be that same degree of wiggle room too. No need to give the Dustbringers another Oath just to give more wiggle room.

Did you quote the wrong person here? And when did Szeth know the ideal of the Skybreakers?

[Wrath]

That probably has a lot to do with the red eyes, as well as their surge being the "Surge of Decay and Destruction". If their Oaths were Odious too, I'm pretty sure they would be expelled from the Radiants just on general principle. As it is, life as a Dustbringer must have been awful.

Okay, I'll concede some wiggle room there. They still can't outright break it, though. If the Dustbringers had some Oath to obey orders, then there'd be that same degree of wiggle room too. No need to give the Dustbringers another Oath just to give more wiggle room.

Did you quote the wrong person here? And when did Szeth know the ideal of the Skybreakers?

 

No, I quoted the right person. Szeth spoke the Second Ideal of the Skybreakers at the end of WoR. I didn't explain what I meant adequately though. Here's another try: Szeth doesn't have to fit the divine attributes of the Skybreakers because he isn't an actual Knight Radiant of the Order of Skybreakers, just a guy belonging to a group calling themselves by that name. Nalan might even deliberately pick people who don't fit because that means they'll never attract a Highspren.. or just because he wants people obedient to him rather than actually to the law.

 

As for the Dustbringers, I suppose I was thinking in terms of storytelling, imagining a scenario in which our Dustbringer character is being forced to do something he or she believes is wrong because they've taken an oath, only to realise that the final ideal allows them a degree of freedom. Every time a Surgebinder has spoken an ideal it has been a big, life-changing moment where they find a degree of inner peace as a result of understanding what they should do.

[Kobold King]

No, I quoted the right person. Szeth spoke the Second Ideal of the Skybreakers at the end of WoR. I didn't explain what I meant adequately though. Here's another try: Szeth doesn't have to fit the divine attributes of the Skybreakers because he isn't an actual Knight Radiant of the Order of Skybreakers, just a guy belonging to a group calling themselves by that name. Nalan might even deliberately pick people who don't fit because that means they'll never attract a Highspren.. or just because he wants people obedient to him rather than actually to the law.

When exactly did Szeth speak the Second Ideal? I confess I must have missed that part.

[Wrath]

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong but when Nalan recruits him he says it.

[PorridgeBrick]

That unfortunately never happened. All that happened was Nalan explaining everything and giving him the sword. The only reason we know their 2nd Ideal is per WoB.

[MistLord]

With the attribute of being 'brave', I thought the Dustbringer's oath would be something like: "I will do what must be done".

[Islington]

What about I will not cower from the challenges I face.  Or I will stand when others fall. Those both fit Adolin, and if the Dustbringers are brave...

[NailsForEyes]

Since they are all about destruction and the resulting power over life and death, one could speculate that Dustbringers might be easy for Odium to corrupt, or at least constantly tempted by the trappings of power to solve their problems with violence.

 

So it would make a kind of sense for the Dustbringers to keep their power in check. Given the universal first oath of "Life before Death" they may swear "I will solve problems with the least violence possible" or, in line with their ideal of obidience "I will only turn to violence when commanded by a Radiant superior".

 

With the latter oath their second ideal would also come into play; being on the battlefield as a pacifist unless commanded to attack would take some balls.

[Argent]

 

... an entire order composed of Ender Wiggins...

 

This is pretty terrifying.

[Wyndrunner]

With all this talk about the Dustbringers I think we might be focusing this too much on combat. Yes, they were probably mostly composed of warriors, but maybe it's not so much about violence as it's about bravery(I know, a little obvious, bear with me)

 

 

 

"I will solve problems with the least violence possible" 

I agree that this is probably one of the goals of the Dustbringers, perhaps one of the later Ideals. But I think the 2nd Ideal would be more like this: I will face my fears. Then there's the stuff about Obedience. I imagine an ideal regarding Obedience to be something like this: I will serve my fellow man, even if it leads me to my death.

 

Of course, this is just my opinion, and for some reason it strikes me as being stereotypical for a bodyguard or something like that. Though it can be argued that kings serve their people so perhaps we will see someone beyond the common servant become a Dustbringer.

[Numb]

What about I will not cower from the challenges I face.  Or I will stand when others fall. Those both fit Adolin, and if the Dustbringers are brave...

 

The latter oath I think is most likely Stonewards. Fits their herald too well.

[qqemonte]

I posted this from another forum:

"In my opinion, what Adolin did  was both serving justice and self-defense though it could be more described as summary execution. Sadeas was guilty for the death of thousands of soldiers, that alone is reason enough for him to die. Apart from that, he threatened the destruction of the Kholin family. I believe Adolin has enough ground to execute Sadeas. It wasn't because of political maneuvering or a so called belief of a better end that would justify the means. I think it was justice, plain and simple. On the other hand, if he did it out of pure revenge and not because of a sense of justice then it would be no different from Kaladin wanting to kill Amaram. If Adolin did it to protect then he can still be a radiant but if he did it because of revenge then that might disqualify him.   

I think the reason the skybreakers were added last was because there was already an existing order that serve justice basing it on wisdom instead of laws and legalities. Laws and legalities can be twisted and someone guilty can actually escape justice or can be the other way around, an innocent person being framed and falsely executed. Probably the Skybreakers were  formed due the demand of different kingdoms that their legal bureaucracies be respected by the Radiants."

I agree that Adolin might a potential Dustbringer. He sees injustice and act upon it like when he protected the whore against Sadea's thug soldiers and when he demands that he be imprisoned as well when Kaladin was thrown into prison. He has a sense of justice. And this might attract a certain kind of spren. Probably a Dustbringer oath is something like... 'I will fight injustice or I will serve justice'... something along that line....          

Edited April 14, 2014 by qqemonte

[joesleepsalot]

Weeeeellll since "Arcanum Unbounded" came out and we now know that Nale snapped out of his twisted-herald trance, he's probably gonna make the other 8 snap out of it.... like time-now. Seems like he's 100% back to normal. That being the case, Adolin will guaranteed be recruited to the dustrbringers. Sure it was murder, but justified. How many murders and betrayals did the "victim of the crime" commit? Perhaps Adolin's actions were not equivalent to murdering Hitler, but certainly Goebbels... lol. Would anyone really complain if that had happened? The sociopath deserved to die within like 5 paragraphs of screen time anyways. We've seen way too much character development and attention on adolin for him to not be a radiant.... there's just no way. It's like in Troy when that crusty advisor to Agamemnon (Nestor) says that "this will be the greatest war the world has ever seen. It will need the greatest warrior".... in this case Achilles. 

As for Spren choosing him, let's not forget that no spren chose Szeth. He has his abilities because he held Jezrien's honor blade and that's it. If Szeth's murdering *** can become a radiant of justice, then I'm sure Adolin will fit in anywhere, especially a pragmatic order of Knights Radiant where the end justifies the means.

[maxal]

7 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

That being the case, Adolin will guaranteed be recruited to the dustrbringers.

Apart from the fact this is a very old thread which means it contains outdated information, I would warn anyone from jumping to hasty conclusions, especially when it concerns an order we know next to nothing of. In other words, we have no idea what Dustbringers are standing for nor do we have any idea what their oaths might be. What we do know is they are the "abnormal" order. Brandon refused to give out much details, stating they were "different". We also know what the arcs arcanum has to say about them which is they were angry at people not liking them, preferring to be called "Releasers" as they felt "Dustbringers" was too reminiscent on "Voidbringers". Brandon also stated we would have to wait for one member of this order to become a main protagonist before learning more about it. This particular WoB is considered as one massive argument against Adolin, specifically, ever becoming a member of this order as Brandon was very clear he would never become a main protagonist within the story.

8 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

Sure it was murder, but justified. How many murders and betrayals did the "victim of the crime" commit? Perhaps Adolin's actions were not equivalent to murdering Hitler, but certainly Goebbels... lol. Would anyone really complain if that had happened? The sociopath deserved to die within like 5 paragraphs of screen time anyways. We've seen way too much character development and attention on adolin for him to not be a radiant.... there's just no way. It's like in Troy when that crusty advisor to Agamemnon (Nestor) says that "this will be the greatest war the world has ever seen. It will need the greatest warrior".... in this case Achilles. 

Nothing is ever clear when it comes to Adolin and you'll understand he was an heavily RAFOed topic within the past three years. Brandon isn't going to give away Adolin's future, not considering so many readers are actually interested or at the very least very curious about it. There are however no guarantees. To put it bluntly, simply because Adolin has had what appears to be character development does not imply he will become a Radiant or even grow into a more major character. If we were talking about another character, if we were talking about Eshonai, Szeth, Lift, Jasnah and/or Renarin, then the discourse would be different, but Adolin, as much as I love the character, is the one special case within the story. Hence, nothing is guaranteed. Adolin could become a Radiant or he could not or he could just... die in order to give Dalinar a "moment".

As for murdering Sadeas, while it certainly wasn't the cold-blooded planned assassinate of rogue agent nor was it the mindless murder of a blind followed of some distant faith, it still isn't enough to offer any guarantee whatsoever concerning his future. If I am to hazard a guess, I would say the murder was the action of an emotion-filled slightly lost injured young man who just couldn't take further threads being made against his father and his people.

8 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

As for Spren choosing him, let's not forget that no spren chose Szeth. He has his abilities because he held Jezrien's honor blade and that's it. If Szeth's murdering *** can become a radiant of justice, then I'm sure Adolin will fit in anywhere, especially a pragmatic order of Knights Radiant where the end justifies the means.

Again, you are jumping on very hasty conclusions: no sprens have been seen to choose Szeth, but if we are to trust the books planned structure, Szeth is all but guaranteed to become a real Skybreaker. While his future status is still unknown, we know enough to hazard the educated guess he is highly likely to become a real Skybreaker, in the very near future.

I also do not believe Adolin's actions were about the putting the end before the means: his journey appears to be one where he'll eventually figure out the man he is as opposed to the man his father wanted him to be. And this man will not allow his people to be molested: it isn't about means or ending, it is about standing strong in front of bullies, it is about putting oneself in between the "innocent" and the "danger". 

I would thus invite you to read the more recent threads where Adolin's future has been discussed. You might find them... interesting 

[Walin]

Windrunner 4th ideal: I will lead the directionless.

                   5th ideal: I will lead those who are stupid-- so long as it is right.

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Walin
5th ideal; has to be like previous ideal but with a condition maybe?