Sherlock Holmes

Ask Axelius Anything* (AKA Sanderson vs. Tolkien Duel)

202 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

I'm mostly German. 

 

 

 

I can't speak any. 

So Google Translate?

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I'm reading the first page, and I totally agree with you, Ax. I see no possibility where Sanderson beats Tolkien.

If we're pulling characters from any time during the Silmarillion, Hobbit, or LoTR, then I have but a single point to make, and I apologize if it's already been made:

Spoiler

Undead Army of Supa-Awesome Ghosts.

 

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Yup, I forgot about that one, but it definitely counts for something. 

Also, thank you for agreeing with me! Nobody ever agrees with me on this website!

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4 hours ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

Also, thank you for agreeing with me! Nobody ever agrees with me on this website!

 

Um... I'm pretty sure that's wrong... :)

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19 hours ago, Gancho Libre said:

I'm reading the first page, and I totally agree with you, Ax. I see no possibility where Sanderson beats Tolkien.

If we're pulling characters from any time during the Silmarillion, Hobbit, or LoTR, then I have but a single point to make, and I apologize if it's already been made:

  Reveal hidden contents

Undead Army of Supa-Awesome Ghosts.

 

Still becomes a bit redundant when the fight includes Shards, Adonalsium, GB, Valar, Eru, etc.

Because whoever wins between a Balrog and a Chasmfiend or a Shade and a ghost won't matter in the slightest once one of the pantheons wins. Because they just insta-kill everyone else on the opposing side.

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That's true. But still, Tolkien wins. 

If we instead decided to disclude all that stuff, Tolkien would still win. 

Edited by AxeliustheGreat
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On 10/14/2018 at 4:47 AM, Voidus said:

Still becomes a bit redundant when the fight includes Shards, Adonalsium, GB, Valar, Eru, etc.

Because whoever wins between a Balrog and a Chasmfiend or a Shade and a ghost won't matter in the slightest once one of the pantheons wins. Because they just insta-kill everyone else on the opposing side.

I'm not saying the ghosts would fight the Shards and stuff. I'm saying they'd fight, well, anything else.

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4 hours ago, Gancho Libre said:

I'm not saying the ghosts would fight the Shards and stuff. I'm saying they'd fight, well, anything else.

I get it, but my point is that even if the ghosts beat everything else in the cosmere single handedly, if the Shards, etc. beat the tolkien pantheon then they would insta kill the ghosts.

The only battle that matters is which pantheon wins, because they could then just clear up the rest of the battle instantly.

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19 hours ago, Voidus said:

I get it, but my point is that even if the ghosts beat everything else in the cosmere single handedly, if the Shards, etc. beat the tolkien pantheon then they would insta kill the ghosts.

The only battle that matters is which pantheon wins, because they could then just clear up the rest of the battle instantly.

Ah, I getcha. So now we gotta decide which Gods are more powerful?

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LotR, obviously. If they can sing a world into existence, they can do anything. Also, they can't be killed, only cast into the Timeless Void. 

I can't stand not arguing with people this long.... Say we get rid of Shards, Slivers, and Fullborn on the Sanderson side (and mind you, this is Cosmere versus Arda), while Tolkien loses all his Valar. Fair?

@King Cole @Ookla the Libre @Ookla the Lurker

Edited by Ookla the Grizzled
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Still LotR. Ghost army, remember? :)

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2 hours ago, Ookla the Libre said:

Still LotR. Ghost army, remember? :)

Shardblades and Nightbloods and Shades oh my!

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Nightblood is too OP, so it goes with the Fullborn, I think. 

All the ghost army needs to do to beat Shades is get out their silverware. Also, there’s only as many Shardblades as there are Shardbearers, so yeah. You have Elhokar, Adolin, Sadeas, Dalinar, Renarin, and Gavilar.

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3 hours ago, Ookla the Grizzled said:

Nightblood is too OP, so it goes with the Fullborn, I think. 

All the ghost army needs to do to beat Shades is get out their silverware. Also, there’s only as many Shardblades as there are Shardbearers, so yeah. You have Elhokar, Adolin, Sadeas, Dalinar, Renarin, and Gavilar.

Ok, Kalads Phantoms or the God King can just make another Nightblood, etc. (Also if you have to remove multiple additional characters from one side that's probably a good indication that that's the winning side)

Silverware that they they would neither know works, nor canonically carry.
Don't forget all the KRs.

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16 hours ago, Ookla the Lurker said:

Shardblades and Nightbloods and Shades oh my!

Butterscotch, you realize that all of those things can be killed/incapacitated/obliterated, right?

But, uh, ghost army can't.

So there.

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I wonder if you could capture them in gemstones. Anyway, I’m with Voidus. Ookla out.

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Not to mention Ungoliant, the primordial being of darkness that can absorb light and literally CAPTURED THE SUN. Sand masters are great and all, but If you add Ungolaint into the equation they’d be basically useless. If she could “eat” stormlight too Ungoliant could incapacitate a significant amount of Brandon’s characters. 

Edited by Ookla the Indefatigable
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8 hours ago, Ookla the Libre said:

Butterscotch, you realize that all of those things can be killed/incapacitated/obliterated, right?

But, uh, ghost army can't.

So there.

About 100% sure Nightblood could destroy them all as could Shardblades probably. Shades would operate under the same principal in Middle Earth.

8 hours ago, Ookla the Indefatigable said:

Not to mention Ungoliant, the primordial being of darkness that can absorb light and literally CAPTURED THE SUN. Sand masters are great and all, but If you add Ungolaint into the equation they’d be basically useless. If she could “eat” stormlight too Ungoliant could incapacitate a significant amount of Brandon’s characters. 

Gets touched by a Shade and dies 

Gets Elsecalled into the CR and starves.

Gets hit by Nightblood and disintegrates.

Gets Lashed into space and vanishes.

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22 minutes ago, Ookla the Lurker said:

Gets touched by a Shade and dies 

Gets Elsecalled into the CR and starves.

Gets hit by Nightblood and disintegrates.

Gets Lashed into space and vanishes.

That's assuming any of them can get anywhere close to her. Ungoliant emits Unlight, a weapon so strong that the most powerful Ainur, Melkor, could not escape without the help of many of his balrog servants, and a cloak that made her undetectable and prevented both the strongest of the valar and the valar who was the best huntsmen on the planet from reaching her. As for elsecalling, I'm not sure if that's even possible to do a being as large as Ungoliant.

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1 hour ago, Ookla the Indefatigable said:

That's assuming any of them can get anywhere close to her. Ungoliant emits Unlight, a weapon so strong that the most powerful Ainur, Melkor, could not escape without the help of many of his balrog servants, and a cloak that made her undetectable and prevented both the strongest of the valar and the valar who was the best huntsmen on the planet from reaching her. As for elsecalling, I'm not sure if that's even possible to do a being as large as Ungoliant.

Shades can't be hurt, they approach and still kill her.
Elsecaller teleports and still banishes her.
Nightblood eats the Unlight and still disintegrates her.
Windrunner continues to heal and still banishes her.

With enough Stormlight it's possible, whether that amount would be available or not is debatable, and the same restriction applies to Windrunners Lashing her, but still plenty of options.

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23 minutes ago, Ookla the Lurker said:

Shades can't be hurt, they approach and still kill her.
Elsecaller teleports and still banishes her.
Nightblood eats the Unlight and still disintegrates her.
Windrunner continues to heal and still banishes her.

1.) Silver is one of the most plentiful metals found in Arda, making Shades nearly a nonfactor. (Tilion, for example, had a bow of silver. The dwarves and metallurgists of middle-earth would be able to easily make silver armor/weapons)

2.) Ungoliant can possibly devour stormlight, similar to the way she devours other types of light. Even if she couldn't, she can use Unlight to bind/torture the edge dancer before he/she touched her. (Ungoliant's reaction time is nearly unparalleled, given that she was able to hold he own in combat with Melkor, who was a valar and likely moved at immeasurably fast speeds.

3.) Someone still has to get Nightblood near Ungoliant without dying, and nightblood either A.) wouldn't be able to eat the Unlight due to it not being investiture. B.) Wouldn't be able to eat it all before killing the wielder. c.) Wouldn't be able to eat it all before Ungoliant killed his wielder.

4.) Windrunner healing is great and all, but as Ungoliant was able to trap Melkor, most powerful of the Valar in her webs of Unlight, she should be able to easily capture/kill a wind runner. Have fun trying to find enough stormlight to do it even if you could.

Final point: Even if you were to find a way to kill Ungoliant, good luck trying to do it while Ancalagon the black (Strongest of the dragons), Melkor (Whose shouts shifted tectonic plates.) The rest of the Valar (Who created the world and everything in it), and multiple characters who can possibly travel at FTL speeds (Such as Arien and Tilion, protectors of the sun and moon, respectively.)

 

 

 

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Just now, Ookla the Indefatigable said:

1.) Silver is one of the most plentiful metals found in Arda, making Shades nearly a nonfactor. (Tilion, for example, had a bow of silver. The dwarves and metallurgists of middle-earth would be able to easily make silver armor/weapons)

2.) Ungoliant can possibly devour stormlight, similar to the way she devours other types of light. Even if she couldn't, she can use Unlight to bind/torture the edge dancer before he/she touched her. (Ungoliant's reaction time is nearly unparalleled, given that she was able to hold he own in combat with Melkor, who was a valar and likely moved at immeasurably fast speeds.

3.) Someone still has to get Nightblood near Ungoliant without dying, and nightblood either A.) wouldn't be able to eat the Unlight due to it not being investiture. B.) Wouldn't be able to eat it all before killing the wielder. c.) Wouldn't be able to eat it all before Ungoliant killed his wielder.

4.) Windrunner healing is great and all, but as Ungoliant was able to trap Melkor, most powerful of the Valar in her webs of Unlight, she should be able to easily capture/kill a wind runner. Have fun trying to find enough stormlight to do it even if you could.

Final point: Even if you were to find a way to kill Ungoliant, good luck trying to do it while Ancalagon the black (Strongest of the dragons), Melkor (Whose shouts shifted tectonic plates.) The rest of the Valar (Who created the world and everything in it), and multiple characters who can possibly travel at FTL speeds (Such as Arien and Tilion, protectors of the sun and moon, respectively.)

 

 

 

1- Which they have no idea would do anything. But sure, my point is that Shades can counter specific things, not that they'd unilaterally win the war.
2. Then Leechers can possibly leech Unlight the way they can other Investiture, Dhakor monks can cancel it the way they can Aons, Knights Radiant can potentailly absorb it the way they do Stormlight...
3. Any of the above could do so. If Nightblood can't eat the Unlight then Ungoliant can't eat Stormlight use KRs. If it can eat the Unlight then it's eating the Unlight not it's wielders Investiture. Unless you're saying Unlight isn't powerful enough by itself to power Nightblood (Which I disagree with) but then others can definitely handle it.
4. Until it gets Soulcast the next second. Yeah as mentioned, Stormlight is potentially an issue but as mentioned, plenty of other options.

Nightblood kills. Nightblood kills. We said no pantheons this time. Scadrial also has FTL capabilities.
Alternatively, Vin uses the Mists and then: Vin kills.

Alternatively alternatively: Cosmere forces evacuate to the CR, an Iron compounder creates a black hole. Cosmere wins.

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1 hour ago, Ookla the Lurker said:

1- Which they have no idea would do anything. But sure, my point is that Shades can counter specific things, not that they'd unilaterally win the war.
2. Then Leechers can possibly leech Unlight the way they can other Investiture, Dhakor monks can cancel it the way they can Aons, Knights Radiant can potentailly absorb it the way they do Stormlight...
3. Any of the above could do so. If Nightblood can't eat the Unlight then Ungoliant can't eat Stormlight use KRs. If it can eat the Unlight then it's eating the Unlight not it's wielders Investiture. Unless you're saying Unlight isn't powerful enough by itself to power Nightblood (Which I disagree with) but then others can definitely handle it.
4. Until it gets Soulcast the next second. Yeah as mentioned, Stormlight is potentially an issue but as mentioned, plenty of other options.

Rebuttals:

1. Galadriel has the ability to read the mind of the enemy, which would presumably alert her to the fact that silver counteracts shades.

2. Assuming that Unlight functions as investiture. If not, then Ungoliant would be able to take out the edgedancer/any other knight radiant who gets remotely close to her before they have time to react. If Unlight does function as investiture, Nightblood wins and becomes king of the universe. In addition you'd have to do it before the boundless holds of orcs, dragons, and balrogs killed them.

3. A knight radiant wielding nightblood would A.) Not be able to get close enough to Ungoliant to use it before she killed them and B.) Probably die because Nightblood ate them. Again, if Unlight is investiture Nightblood wins

4.) Soulcasting enough Unlight to enshroud Ungoliant, a creature many times larger than Melkor who was in turn larger than any man or elf would again take the vast amounts of stormlight that are probably unattainable. 

New Points:

1.) LoTR characters such as Luthien can change their appearance. Good luck trying to fight someone if they can camouflage themselves amongst your ranks.

2.) The ring of power Nenya provides a protection that is nearly impenetrable 

3.) It's for all intents and purposes impossible to kill Tom Bombadil in his domain, so the cosmere could never totally subjugate Arda.

4.) The many dragons of middle earth are nearly unkillable by mortal weapons, and the heat of their flames coupled with flight would make it difficult for even a knight radiant to get close while using Nightblood.

5.) Uruk-Hai breed like rabbits. Even Nightblood can eventually be taken down by a force larger in size. 

6.) Ancalagon the Black, largest of the dragons, was large enough to crush a mountain range when he fell from the sky. Have fun getting your armies/shardbearers/knights radiant out of the way in time!

7.) Huan the wolf can only be killed by "The greatest wolf who ever lived" (Carcharoth), and as they're fighting together against the Cosmere, Huan is invincible.

8.) Even the lesser spirits, or Maia, have the power to reshape the world to their liking. This is rivaled only by the powers of shard bearers, which are possibly not even a factor in this battle due to you saying "No pantheons this time"

 

Edited by Ookla the Indefatigable
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