Pupation of great shells

[Gyth]

I was checking out the Introduce yourself forums and I came across Rererak's post. He asked a questions about how the highstorms affect the pupation of chasm fiends.

 

It makes perfect sense considering their "heart" is a gemstone that would absorb the storms' stormlight.

 

It could fuel their growth or change, among other things.

 

I'm not sure if this has been brought up, but thanks for posting that question and answer Rererak and Shardlet, It's what caused my consideration

 

I wonder what implication this could have on the origination of great shells.

 

Which came first, the chasm fiends, or the highstorms.

[Kobold King]

Interesting ideas could come of this... we know that greatshells have some kind of relationship with spren, so why couldn't they utilize Stormlight somehow? They (probably) can't do anything as dramatic as Surgebinding with it, but it would be fun to see if they make any use of the stuff.

[Swimmingly]

Well, the spren bonds basically allow them to ignore the square-cube law, and something probably powers that blatant ignorance of physics, so...

[PorridgeBrick]

There's also an interesting observation by Shallan in WoR. She notices that the hordes of spren that flock around chasmfiends are the same as skyeels. Now, seeing as both are examples of organisms that effectively defy gravity... are those gravityspren, in a symbiotic relationship with both organisms?

[Seloun]

There's also an interesting observation by Shallan in WoR. She notices that the hordes of spren that flock around chasmfiends are the same as skyeels. Now, seeing as both are examples of organisms that effectively defy gravity... are those gravityspren, in a symbiotic relationship with both organisms?

 

Shallan is aware of gravitationspren, and believes that she's seen a picture of them, so probably not:

 

 

“Of course,” Shallan said. Paintings lived. Not lived like a person or a spren, but . . . well, it was obvious to her, at least. “So, before the spren were alive, they were something. Power. Energy. Zen-daughter-Vath sketched tiny spren she found sometimes around heavy objects. Gravitationspren— fragments of the power or force that causes us to fall. It stands to reason that every spren was a power before it was a spren. Really, you can divide spren into two general groups . Those that respond to emotions and those that respond to forces like fire or wind pressure.”

 

My current theory is that this might somehow be related to the lifecycle of spren themselves (or some spren) - the spren 'consciousness' in larval form lives with the skyeels, then eventually migrates to occupying a greatshell, then finally transitions to the Cognitive during a highstorm by making the greatshell pupate during highstorms.

 

 

Re: Gemhearts:

 

It's probably not unreasonable to think of the greatshells as living fabrials; given the amount of energy literally floating around during highstorms it doesn't seem too far-fetch to assume creatures have evolved to store and use that energy. Maybe they're effectively giant mass-diminisher fabrials.

[hoser]

Presumably relevant is this quote from Kaladin's POV when he and Shallan are out in the highstorm:

Light came from above, too steady to be lightning.  Something was glowing on the plateau.  Something that moved.  It was hard to see, since water streamed off the side of the plateau above, falling in a sheet before their refuge.  He swore he saw an enormous figure walking up there, a glowing inhuman form, followed by another, alien and sleek.  Striding into the storm.  Leg after leg, until the glow passed.

I guess these might be larval Chasmfiends that Kaladin sees.  They are glowing like crazy and if they are continually charged during the storm, that's a lot of investiture.  Even if they are not larval chasmfiends, they are presumably a greatshell of some sort. 

Edited March 23, 2014 by hoser

[Shardbearer]

Presumably relevant is this quote from Kaladin's POV when he and Shallan are out in the highstorm:

I guess these might be larval Chasmfiends that Kaladin sees.  They are glowing like crazy and if they are continually charged during the storm, that's a lot of investiture.  Even if they are not larval chasmfiends, they are presumably a greatshell of some sort. 

 

I thought this was the Parshendi claiming Stormform, but the Parshendi were probably closer to the center of the Plains and Kaladin and Shallan were probably closer to the camps. Plus he thinks they were enormous, so probably not the Parshendi.

[Thought]

Some of this would depend on if a chasmfiend's shell conducts stormlight or not. That is, a gem in a building in a highstorm doesn't get charged, but one set outside does. So, is being at the heart of a chasmfiend "inside" enough to prevent a gem from getting infused? Of course, as we see from Kaladin and Szeth, beings can directly absorb stormlight, so it might be less that the gemheart is getting a charge as the entire creature is (thus, I guess that this would make the gemheart more of a bladder).

 

All that said, it seems like Shallan or some other scholar we have seen would have been ridiculously interested in the fact that gemhearts glowed with stormlight when they were removed.

[LSU Tiger]

http://brandonsanderson.com/beta/wp-content/gallery/stormlight-2-maps-and-illustrations-2/WoR_EPHEMERA-CHULLCYCL_fmt.jpeg

 

This discuses chull pupation. It does link it to high storms.

[Maffu17]

I guess from what Kaladin saw in the chasm during the highstorm that the Chasmfiends are active during the storm, and pupate afterwards. So the shell doesn't need to conduct the stormlight. 

 

I'm assuming they extract minerals from what they eat in order to add to the size of the Gemheart inside them, e.g. Chromium and others in the case of Emerald Gemhearts. And during the pupation they are growing their Gemheart as well as their physical form to enable them to survive the increase in volume.

 

These discussions always bring me back to the wonderfully hidden comment Syl made while Kaladin was in the slave-wagon

 

 "Is it the heart of a beetle, so tiny yet powerful?"

[Dravs]

I guess from what Kaladin saw in the chasm during the highstorm that the Chasmfiends are active during the storm, and pupate afterwards. So the shell doesn't need to conduct the stormlight. 

 

I'm assuming they extract minerals from what they eat in order to add to the size of the Gemheart inside them, e.g. Chromium and others in the case of Emerald Gemhearts. And during the pupation they are growing their Gemheart as well as their physical form to enable them to survive the increase in volume.

 

These discussions always bring me back to the wonderfully hidden comment Syl made while Kaladin was in the slave-wagon

 

This is kind of what I figured, that the gemhearts grow like a pearl would in a clam, except in this case they grow from infusing stormlight, and the stormlight in turn infuses the animal when it pupates and causes it to grow.  I think this is Roshars form of animal evolution.  I reckon at some point in the series they will find where the chasm fiends originate from and just find fields of Chull who have been allowed to pupate over and over until they evolve.

[Maffu17]

This is kind of what I figured, that the gemhearts grow like a pearl would in a clam, except in this case they grow from infusing stormlight, and the stormlight in turn infuses the animal when it pupates and causes it to grow.  I think this is Roshars form of animal evolution.  I reckon at some point in the series they will find where the chasm fiends originate from and just find fields of Chull who have been allowed to pupate over and over until they evolve.

 

This is possible, remember no one has even seen Urithiru before despite it being incredibly huge (the largest tower in the world), so we can surmise the mountain range it sits in has not been explored very thoroughly. There's a plethora of places where greatshells can be stashed away. Developing from beetles via Chulls and Chasmfiends into ultimately the Reshi Isles.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Maffu17

[rererak]

I feel special that I seemed to have inspired someone to also research this. I am uh.. collecting all the data I can on chasmfiends (finishing up my second reread, have already finished with the first book for gathering information) and other greatshells and I will get back after I finish what I have dubbed my "research paper". There's a couple of things I wanted to mention. There seems to be some kind of relationship between the greatshells of the land and the ones of the water with the Tai-na being an inbetween, possibly an ancestor of the two since they're ancient. This could explain the similarities of pupation that Chasmfiends and the Marabethian greatshell, yu-nerig. It also makes me think that rather than chulls pupating into chasmfiends it works the other way around. For survival, possibly due to limited resources of food, chasmfiends became more docile (similar to how Parshendi are in slaveform) and were capable of choosing a lesser life form to eat (cremlings). Otherwise I think it's weird chasmfiends would be build to eat their own kind they evolved from. Not rejecting the idea, I think it's interesting, but throwing out my perspective. I also think the chasmfiends could very well live in Urithiru themselves, that their claws were developed to help them break through rocks and their capability ot traverse through tight spaces such as the chasms.

The other thing I wanted to bring up was the question of Mraize's gemhearts. Even uncut, if they had been infused it would've blinded Shallan (I don't have an exact quote atm). Were those from chasmfiends or another greatshell? Do gems or gemhearts ONLY come from greatshells? If so it could explain why none of Dalinar's visions had spheres as lighting sources. Do all greatshells come to land to pupate, by the way? Is that something we can assume? If so, I wonder how that fits in with my theory that santhids are also greatshells and that greatshells all possess a lot of intelligence, especially for what we assume is a beast.

If you haven't noticed, the greatshells have become an obsession of mine. Unfortunately, I have no theories on the spren yet, but I am trying to figure that out. I feel like Jasnah searching for information on Urithiru, there's just too little information. Not that I'm as smart as her...

Also, since this doesn't often have an opportunity to be brought up, on the topic of chasmfiends, am I the only one who is damnation impressed by Kaladin/Shallan's ability to defeat the chasmfiend. Dalinar had the help of his own plate and blade, two other full shardbearers, one person in a shardplate, a lot of soldiers and archers, an open space to avoid attacks and the knowledge and preparation of a chasmfiend, even if part of that was ruined by the preemptive. Not to mention horses. Kaladin and Shallan only had the advantage of a tight space, which the chasmfiend had the ability to still navigate better than anything as large as it is should, and Shallan's TWO illusions. Kaladin not only lacked his stormlight but he also sucks with a blade... Ah that scene still feels like the most epic scene of them all.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

All that said, it seems like Shallan or some other scholar we have seen would have been ridiculously interested in the fact that gemhearts glowed with stormlight when they were removed.

I really wonder too! We know that Gemhearts can capture spren, and from the Rysn chapter we know that the spren are powerful enough to affect the physical realm. I'm wondering if there's anything special about the stormlight that's infused in the sphere right out of the chasmfiend. Is it possible that the gemhearts are capturing a greatshell spren?

Edited April 22, 2014 by EMTrevor

[PorridgeBrick]

Almost certainly. The only reason Chasmfiends can get so big is from their spren bonds. The pupation probably acts very similarly to changing forms in Parshendi– you go out into a highstorm, and switch spren. Except instead of hiding behind a shield, the Chasmfiends get a nice, comfy chrysalis to hide in while the delicate transformation occurs. In fact, the similarities in that are the main reason why I think Parshendi have gemhearts of their own to stuff their spren in.

[rererak]

Almost certainly. The only reason Chasmfiends can get so big is from their spren bonds. The pupation probably acts very similarly to changing forms in Parshendi– you go out into a highstorm, and switch spren. Except instead of hiding behind a shield, the Chasmfiends get a nice, comfy chrysalis to hide in while the delicate transformation occurs. In fact, the similarities in that are the main reason why I think Parshendi have gemhearts of their own to stuff their spren in.

Hmm.. wouldn't that kind of make Parshendi and the chasmfiends somewhat related? It could go alongside the fact that the artist from book one drew chasmfiends as voidbringers, maybe they still really are, just with a different spren.

[PorridgeBrick]

About as related as me, a cow, and an elephant. We all have fur, are warm-blooded, and drink milk. Similarly, Parshendi, chasmfiends, and chulls all have carapaces, contain gemhearts, and change forms during highstorms.

[rererak]

While I see your point I think the better comparison would've been me, a monkey, and an ape (no specific correspondence). The change with a high storm is a pretty significant thing that I would closer relate to having thumbs rather than drinking milk... But my reasoning was more the idea that they take spren into themselves. Not even radiants do that. The wrong spren could have catastrophic, Odium-based results. I personally find it more believable that a chasmfiend becomes a giant rock thing than a Parshendi. So far the Parshendi forms haven't dramatically changed their size. They've remained in a reasonably human form. I may be misremembering (I should always carry around my darn kindle) but aren't the stone-based voidbringers much bigger than that?

[PorridgeBrick]

It's really no bigger a similarity than the complete metamorphosis many insects undergo. Endopterygota is a clade that comprises all insects that undergo complete metamorphosis with a larval, pupal, and adult (or imago) stage and contains butterflies, flies, ants, bees, beetles, fleas, and many other more obscure groups. Now, that's a very large similarity: all of them begin as larvae, eating until they reach pupation, at which point they remain immobile and transform into a sexually active imago. And yet this clade probably dwarfs the entire phylum Chordata in species and diversity. Chasmfiends and Parshendi have one similarity: they switch spren during highstorms. That's not that big, especially when so much of the surrounding mechanics are different. Parshendi don't create chrysalises (chrysali? What's the plural for that?), and they can switch forms again and again. While Parshendi have hundreds of forms, Chasmfiends only seem to have two: larval, and adult.