HonorBlades Grant Each Herald All Ten Surges

[Confused]

Previous commentary has assumed that the Honorblades grant a rightful user the ability to use only the surges associated with the Herald whose Honorblade it is. Szeth’s Honorblade, which most speculate was Jezrien’s, gave Szeth Windrunner powers, but (as far as we know) did not grant him the ability to bind other surges. Is each Herald likewise limited to bind only certain surges, based on their respective Honorblades, or do the Blades grant the Heralds the ability to bind all ten surges? Alternatively, do the Heralds possess some inherent power, either derived off-world (where some in this forum believe the Heralds originated) or imbued as a splinter of Honor’s power?

 

The text supports the theory that the Honorblades granted the Heralds access to all ten surges. Kalak observes in the WoK Prelude that

 

“ [Honorb]lades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. They were unique. Precious.”

 

Presumably Kalak meant that Honorblades’ ability to grant surgebinding powers elevated them above Shardblades. It’s odd that Kalak viewed Shardblades as actual weapons. Shouldn’t he have known that they were simply a form taken by each KR’s bonded spren? And, knowing that, shouldn’t he have realized that the nahel bond granted each KR powers equal to an Honorblade? Unless for Heralds the Honorblades, unlike the nahel bond, granted the power to bind all ten surges. When normal humans like Szeth use the Honorblades (assuming one could call Szeth “normal”), they were limited to the surgebinding abilities of the Herald whose blade it was.

 

Ishar feared what might happen if each KR had access to all ten surges:

 

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.” [“Words of Radiance,” Chapter 2, page 4, emphasis added.]

 

Ishar must have felt that “organization” was necessary to preclude men from rivaling Heralds’ power. Otherwise, why bother? A KR already has power over other men. Ishar’s concern must be for the Heralds.

 

Ishar’s fear was sufficiently great that he would “destroy each and every one” if each individual KR’s surgebinding ability were not limited. To leave even a few KR with the same full abilities as the Heralds would inevitably invite conflict between the KR and the Heralds.

 

It is unclear whether the foregoing epigraph refers to Ishar destroying each Radiant or each spren, since the spren were the basis of the KR’s power. And we have discovered that the spren, like men, also had “precepts and laws.” Further, the antecedents to the various pronouns (“them,” “one,” they”) are equally unclear: the “them” does seem to refer to men, but the “one” and the “they” could refer to either men or spren. From Ishar’s perspective, however, the result would be the same – the KR would cease to exist.

 

That each KR Order chose a “patron” Herald does not undermine this analysis. The epigraph of WoR Chapter 37 (“Words of Radiance” chapter 13, page 1, emphasis added) states:

 

"Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards who followed after Talenelat'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error."

 

The choice of patron Herald was based on personality, not surgebinding power. This passage says nothing about Taln’s particular surgebinding abilities. That again suggests that each Herald had the ability to bind all ten surges.

 

It is possible that the Stone Shamans taught Szeth how to use only the Windrunner surges and that humans, if properly taught, could use the Honorblades for all of the surges. That will make Kaladin’s possession of Szeth’s former Honorblade very interesting…unless the Stone Shamans take it from him.

 

I do think Heralds also have inherent power – Taln’s catching the darts with superhuman quickness (assuming it was Taln). But the power to bind all ten surges comes from their Honorblades. I will discuss the use of Honorblades and stormlight, which another thread has already addressed, on another day.

[Elena]

I like this. Really, really like it. As it has been already pointed out, if Honorblades worked on the Heralds like it happened with Sezth then there would be nothing special about the Heralds, not compared yo the KR. This yheory though.. it opens a world of possibilities, I love it.

[Aleksiel]

The choice of patron Herald was based on personality, not surgebinding power. 

 

Because one's personality determined one's actions and those actions are what draws a certain kind of spren. It's very logical to me that the personality ('nature and temperament') is behind what surges you get. Even Nohadon talks about personalities and what surgebinders those people make. 

 

I agree Honorblades might grant more than what we've currently see, but not all surges.

[Swimmingly]

I'm thinking that a weapon that can turn Joe Average into a Surgebinder is pretty unique and extraordinary. It's like a world where you can only use a gun if you're a police officer, but then a criminal starts shooting people.

[Seloun]

The Honorblades may very well have powers beyond what we've seen (especially when used by the Herald) but I don't think the extra powers would include using all of the Surges.

 

Note that Nin near the end of WoR uses a fabrial to replicate Regrowth on Szeth. If we accept that Nin is the Herald with his Honorblade, he wouldn't need the fabrial if he had access to all of the Surges.

 

There's WoB that implies the Heralds do have inherent power unrelated to Surgebinding IIRC.

 

Ishar must have felt that “organization” was necessary to preclude men from rivaling Heralds’ power. Otherwise, why bother? A KR already has power over other men. Ishar’s concern must be for the Heralds.

 

Ishar’s fear was sufficiently great that he would “destroy each and every one” if each individual KR’s surgebinding ability were not limited. To leave even a few KR with the same full abilities as the Heralds would inevitably invite conflict between the KR and the Heralds.

 

I don't think it's necessary for the KR to be able to rival the Herald's power for Ishar to feel they needed some sort of restriction. We know Surgebinders caused conflicts between humans in the past (assuming that Dalinar's Nohadon vision is based on a real event). Given that one of the purposes of the Heralds is to try to preserve what they can during the Desolation and do what they can to rebuild before having to leave, making sure Surgebinders aren't constantly ripping apart civilization even without a Desolation sounds like a pretty important thing.

[Swimmingly]

Ishar's a cynic, that's for sure.

Hey! Ordinary people can have magic if their honourable and stuff now!

OH ALMIGHTY ABOVE WHAT HAVE WE DONE?!

Dude, chill. They literally lose their powers if they do bad things.

AND WHO JUDGES THIS?!

Ummmmmmmmm... The spren, who are sentient, have politics, and interpret "Honor" as a different thing depending on their type, their Surgebinder's perception, and circumstantial morality OK yeah figure something out right now.

[Aoibheann]

Warbreaker Spoiler:

 

If Ishar = Vasher, we've already seen him put limits on power.

[chikinllama]

Not sure if this counts as necroing a thread, but the Taravangian interlude in WoR indicates that only two Honorblades give access to the growth surge. This is how he

convinced Szeth that Kaladin could heal his arm without being a Radient

[Bramble Thorn]

Not sure if this counts as necroing a thread, but the Taravangian interlude in WoR indicates that only two Honorblades give access to the growth surge. This is how he

convinced Szeth that Kaladin could heal his arm without being a Radient

 

Yeah, for Kaladin to be doing everything via honorblades he would need a growth surge (apparently honorblades cannot use stormlight to heal shardblade wounds; This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules is going on there...), the Skybreaker blade to fly, and the lightweaving surge to make the shardblade look like a shardspear/shardshield and make the frost spell out the windrunner sigil in glowing sapphire behind him.

 

Bright side, this only needs two honorblades; the Truthwatcher has both lightweaving and growth. And it I was going to steal an Honorblade, I would wand one in both hands...