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The Physics of "Lashings"


Charper

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I want to start by saying that I have really enjoyed this series, and what fallows is not an attempt to "debunk" any of the Science Brandon Sanderson has built. I just want some help rationalizing his Magic system for the sake of my immersion.  So on to the crux of my issue

 

The system of lashing does not work within the logical confines constructed by Brandon Sanderson. 

 

BS describes lashing as temporarily re-aligning whatever spren is responsible for making you fall towards the direction of your choosing. Furthermore, 2 lashings would make the force act as if you were twice your weight, 3 lashings three times your weight, and so on.  Basically the surge binder can position their gravitational force vector in any orientation( and to some extent magnitude) they choose. Where this falls apart is when Kaladin is testing out his new abilities in the Chasm. He is hurtling towards a wall and lashes himself "back" and "left" to turn  left . kaladin describes it as having a jumped off a cliff with a rope around his belly, however there would be no jerking motion. In fact, once he lashes himself backwards it would take as long as he had been lashed towards the wall for backwards lashing to bring him to a stop. He would have splattered straight into the wall! If he had been falling for even just 3 or 4 seconds, it would take at least that many backwards lashings to bring him to a stop within a second. 

 

We constantly see him using these bindings to make quick jerking motions, but this is not at all how moving about solely by manipulating roughly equivalent forces ( as in a physical force  F = ma) would work.  

 

Moving about with these lashings should be much more similar to walking on Ice ( although for different physical reasons).  Once he has picked up speed in any direction, a lashing in the other direction would bring about a smooth gradual directional change.

 

The concepts really break down when he is flying to the sky and then slowly comes to a stop once he has put lashings both up and down. In this case you would have no net force and you would just continue drifting up. Sure, air resistance will slow you down at first, but it would become almost negligible at slower speed and he would just lazily continue to drift up for a LONG time.  

 

That being said, the system works perfectly in enclosed spaces like hallways and such.  Without having enough space to accelerate to high speeds, the constant changes in acceleration vectors would lead to an almost instantaneous change in direction. 

 

I really respect Brandon's use of logic in most of his magic systems. HE gives them a reason to work, but its use here  just seems broken. His system is based off of classical mechanics ( which is really cool), but his disregard for a lot of the ramifications sort of wreck the experience. 

 

 

TL;DR I like Brandon Sanderson's believable magic systems, unfortunately he undermines the very structure he uses to make the awesomeness of surge binding believable.  Has anyone found some useful justifications to patch the system? 

 

Edit: I was thinking something along the lines of orthogonal lashings immediately redirecting all of their force in the new direction... that could help  make more sense, maybe? 

Edited by Charper
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I gave up trying when Feruchemical iron and cadmium/bendalloy were introduced and the latest round of annotations noted that they just didn't make sense. Classical physics break down in every which way when Investiture is introduced and momentum is a suggestion rather than something conserved in the Cosmere.

 

That said, it's fun to abuse and think of all the free energy the Cosmere can get from mechanical Feruchemical iron. Put it on a rotating wheel and make it become light on the way up, then use the stored weight on the way down, and yay Scadrial has no need for gasoline.

 

If you want to find some way to keep it working, you could pretend Kaladin Lashes himself multiple times for the span of half of a second, then reduces his number of Lashes. It would keep the acceleration in line with what we see. Or perhaps that momentum is a spiritual concept tied up with gravity and when Kaladin alters his Lashing's direction it also alters his velocity. I wouldn't spend much effort on it.

Edited by Moogle
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You raise a good question.

 

Before we resort to the Handwavium, perhaps a solution?

 

Through all of Kaladin's use of the Basic Lashing, it comes across as very much more intuitive than when Szeth does it. Szeth's POV's are very mechanical, very "Lashing one quarter of his weight upward" and so on. But Kaladin, for the most part, just kind of does it. During the final fight with Szeth he even comes to this realization/decision consciously, not thinking about the specifics of the Lashings anymore.

 

Could the effects you describe be achieved with big differences in the magnitude of these Lashings that weren't explicitly expositied? So the "back" was actually 4 Lashings or the like?

 

Forgive me if this is all very stupid-sounding: physics has constantly been my foe on these forums. ;)

Edited by Kurkistan
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The descriptions, and the reasons given for it being difficult to get used to lashing, are that from the surgebinders perspective, the world lurches around them. They are always falling in the same direction, its the orientation of their surroundings that they change with each lash.

No, this doesn't fix the physics problem, but it pushes it aside in favor of a cognitive perspective change approach. If physics depend on cognitive structures, then the rules only matter if you can't convince others otherwise.

Edited by Leuthie
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True, those all seem like they will help me be at peace with the technical discrepancy's. I know it is not a big deal, but things like these always bother me until I settle them one way or another.  I like Moogle's game of seeing how you can exploit all of the free energy out there :) .  Well I feel much better about it all now, the world doesn't seem so broken anymore - thanks! 

Edited by Charper
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Maybe he's using Adhesion unconsciously. Binding to the air could be responsible for the large impulses. Conceptually kind of like a fly-by-wire system where the Adhesion surge automatically applies low-level stabilization and let him use the Gravitational surge intuitively as the stick and throttle. Of course, that wouldn't explain if we see flying Skybreakers, but then, we haven't seen any yet...

 

Even without Adhesion, he's still an airfoil; if he can somehow redirect airflow, he can potentially get more acceleration that the Gravitational surge can provide. Though Adhesion makes a lot of sense, really; done properly he could probably replicate control surfaces.

 

We don't really have canon examples, but if you need to accelerate along your current velocity vector, you do have to rely on the Gravitational surge, while change of direction is better served by being able to push against the air, which may explain the 'moar lashing' during chases. This also gives an excuse why Kaladin and Szeth always seem to be in motion (versus ground) while in air combat (without the initial velocity relative to the air, they're stuck with just the Gravitational acceleration).

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There is a simple explanation, which Kurkistan already cut into: It's stated nowhere how many lashings are beein used, infact it would need quiet a lot to cause this directional change (need for decelleration from about 300km/h (final velocity- on earth about 400 km/h) to 0 in quiet lets say 3 seconds=> a=v/t =300/3.6 m/s *1/ 3s = 28m/s²  so about 4 lashings (if g=7m/s²)).

So if he lashed once for directional change and 4 times for decelleration it would work.

 

Now the lurch: Any da/dt (change in acceleration) feels like a lurch, just like driving over a big bump at high speeds, only that 4*the normal gravity might actually feel like a rope. Keep in mind that 3 seconds is a very conservative estimate, if it's only 1s it would be 12*g(rocharen g).

It could actually feel more like running into a wall.

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The problem with following the laws of physics would be inner ear issues, brain sloshing against brainpan issues, and gut ripping free of their sprenbonds and sloshing around inside the body cavity issues. Changes in direction are difficult.

Always falling down and moving the world around you solves these.

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The descriptions, and the reasons given for it being difficult to get used to lashing, are that from the surgebinders perspective, the world lurches around them. They are always falling in the same direction, its the orientation of their surroundings that they change with each lash.

No, this doesn't fix the physics problem, but it pushes it aside in favor of a cognitive perspective change approach. If physics depend on cognitive structures, then the rules only matter if you can't convince others otherwise.

I think this is the most elegant solution to the problem. +1 for catching the issue, +1 for this cool idea!

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The only problem I have with the cognitive approach, and reorienting your surroundings so that you are always falling down is that you would never need to "backwards lash" to make sharp turns. Your hurtling towards a wall, and BAM you lash right, now right is down - and its like you were always falling in that direction.  However, in the book we see several examples of kaladin lashing so as to cancel out the unwanted components of the acceleration  vector. This type of lashing would be completely unnecessary if everything was based off of total reorientation.   Still I think this cognitive method  is how it SHOULD work even if it does not seem to be implemented this way.

 

i really like the idea airfoil idea, I will have to think about that more - that could be a pretty solid solution.

 

Thanks to everyone for providing interesting perspectives!

Edited by Charper
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We're in a world where Newtonian physics don't really ultimately apply, as the meaning of "same direction" would have a different meaning on Roshar than on Earth.  Replacing one lashing with another lashing normal to it would still retain the "same direction" for purposes of momentum for the surgebinder.  The surgebinder's intention to oppose one lashing to another would then the creator of "different direction" for such purposes.  That and actually colliding with an object (which presumably has its own ideas on the matter, ha ha!).

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Brandon states over and over again when answering questions that much of the power granted in the cosmere has to do with perception. That's stated as why Kaladin has such a hard time adjusting to lashing to the walls. Now, when we apply that logic to the two we know who use lashing, we can really understand why the language changes the way it does as it had been stated earlier. 

 

Szeth most likely had some sort of education on how the lashings worked. He's a technical study, and as such, quantifies the ability in his mind as he goes through the motions. This works much in the same way as the ardents measuring the flame spren-giving it a number quantifies it for him, because that is how he is perceiving the power leaving him. 

Kaladin is learning all from instinct. As he begins to explore his power, he doesn't have the mental constraints of a formal training, and so he doesn't have any preconceptions on how the power should work either. Now, once he had started to get the hang of the way it worked, he was still using it on a "I want this, let's make it happen" level. It works on an instinctual level, kind of like when you're driving on ice doing donuts and things. As you get more acquainted with the physics of the vehicle on ice, you can continue to improve, even though you don't realize exactly why and how it works that way, only that it does.

 

So as Kaladin whips towards impending face splattering he thinks, "need to turn." He comes towards the turn, which we don't know how sharp of one it is, which is also important on how the centrifugal force would affect him and his flight path, and he lashes himself to the wall. The pull of one lashing would initially feel like a rope pulling on you, because it works in almost the same way. There is a force that it pulling you away from the straight line. The angle of the turn, if sharper, would still leave some time to react, and so he would instinctively "pull harder" or lash more towards that way to get the degree of turn that he needed. 

 

In fact, I think the term 'lashing' itself expalins this in a marvelous way. I imagine it as a spring or a rubber band that he affixes to himself and to a distant point. It constantly puts tension on him that brings him towards it. Because he is able to modify the strength of the force bringing him that way, he can manipulate it to work in the way he needs it to, even if it's only by instinct, because of the way he perceives the power to work. 

Edited by EMTrevor
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