Trevalion Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 If shardic intent has long ago overcome the personalities of the ancient shard-holders, as we see with the kind of being Ruin led Ati to became, after starting as a kind and good man, then what kind of being is Cultivation now? If Cultivation is akin to development, the seed that she develops into a full formed plant could be of Honor or Odium, and she may not be concerned which, as long as working with that power allows her to follow her shardic intent. A bitterness can be cultivated into a life consuming hatred just as an honorable intention can be cultivated into a life of self-sacrificing courage. So, if she took the powers of honor and merged them with her own to own to develop/cultivate them into surgebinding, wouldn't it make sense that voidbinding is the fruit of the same kind of partnership with Odium. A recent post started developing the details of the system of voidbinding, and the question comes up, who is the woman, half in light and half in dark on what seems to be the voidbinding chart. I would say it is Cultivation. If she has fully embraced her shardic intent, this would explain why she remains alive, she may have no qualms with working with Odium. It may now all be the same to her, what kind of power she cultivates, develops and grows. It also may explains the nature of the Nightwatcher's, (what most seem to agree is likely her Spren) blessings and curses. If the powers she cultivates are of Honor and Odium, then what she brings to fruit must contain those two equivalent sides. I was originally a believer in the love triangle theory, (and thought I started it, but in searching, others came up with it before me) that when Culitvation chose Tanavast, the thwarted Rayse took up the Odium shard and followed Tanavast and Cultivation to this system in the hopes of doing in Tanavast and getting the girl. And this may end up being right. But what I originally pictured of the heartbroken Cultivation dealing out curses with her blessings to those rotten humans whose broken pledges were the deathblow to her partner, doesn't fit with what we know of the ancient shard-bearers. in thinking more about it, shardic intent likely now rules the actions of the shard-holders and the being Cultivation would likely not have any qualms about working with the murderer of her former lover. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunning Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 I definitely think this is very probable. Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 I agree broadly that she's probably not fighting Odium directly, and that Voidbinding is Odium + Cultivation like Surgebinding is Honor + Cultivation, but I don't think she's entirely a force of nature. I imagine she has harsh feelings for Odium, or at least has become apathetic and given up and just lazily applies her Intent. Wyndle implies the latter, but he was referring to the Nightmother, who is not Cultivation, but also isn't like the Stormfather, so I'm not sure what's up with that. In any case, if Taravangian is anything to go by, the Nightwatcher is not above fighting Odium, though in very un-Honorish ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numb Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 I don't see why Voidbringing would be Odium+Cultivation. From what we have gathered of the listeners it seems like Spren forms were around before humans since the Listerners believe the spren "bretrayed them" by instead bonding with the humans. It could be that spren were around before Honor/Cultivation/Odium but when they came new forms of spren came too? Just seems the timeline is off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) I don't see why Voidbringing would be Odium+Cultivation. From what we have gathered of the listeners it seems like Spren forms were around before humans since the Listerners believe the spren "bretrayed them" by instead bonding with the humans. It could be that spren were around before Honor/Cultivation/Odium but when they came new forms of spren came too? Just seems the timeline is off. WoB is that the listeners were not originally of Odium and were not originally of Cultivation, and they're just plain not of Honor. If they're using Voidbinding, as is speculated... Well, there's a mixture of Honor + Cultivation in Surgebinding spren, so why not have a mix of other Shards in other Surge-ish systems? We've also got Intent Meshing theory for the magic systems that will be born of Shards who Invest in a planet, but that was born out of a desire to explain why Odium+Cultivation was a thing and not Odium+Honor so it's speculative. (Incidentally, Intent Meshing predicts there is an Honor + Cultivation + Odium system, which may be the esoteric abilities the Ars Arcanum speaks of.) And yes, I agree that the spren were probably around before the three Shards came, because Adonalsium left his power behind and it became spren. I'd speculate the common types (painspren, gloryspren, windspren) can be created by all the Shards, but the big ones with obvious leanings (stormspren, honorspren) were created when H/C/O came. They're the spren that grant access to the magic systems, after all. The listeners would have felt these spren betrayed them. Perhaps H+C Invested on Roshar, but humanity was on a different planet, so the listeners had a short amount of time to enjoy the company of Nahel spren. Humanity did originally come from the "Tranquiline Halls", which may have once been Braize or something (which Odium promptly destroyed). Someone speculated that the Nightwatcher was a big piece of Odium and Cultivation in another thread. I forget who, but I really liked that idea. And of course there's the woman on the Voidbinding (?) chart on the back of The Way of Kings. She's on the borders, and it seems like she's Cultivation, or perhaps the Nightwatcher. Edited March 19, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 WoB is that the listeners were not originally of Odium and were not originally of Cultivation, and they're just plain not of Honor. If they're using Voidbinding, as is speculated... Could you find a quote for this? It's entirely possible I missed this, but I've never heard it before. Very cool, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 Could you find a quote for this? It's entirely possible I missed this, but I've never heard it before. Very cool, though. Q: Are the Parshendi of Odium? A: Not originally. Q: Are the Parshendi of Cultivation? A: Not originally. Q: Are the Parshendi of Honor? A: No (source) There you go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted March 19, 2014 Report Share Posted March 19, 2014 There you go! Well, that's crazy and insane. So many implications... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevalion Posted March 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 I guess a lot depends on whether spren are pre-Cultivation or not. I like the idea that ideas in the cognitive realm were "cultivated", or delveloped into spren, and this may be part of why Wyndle, a very knowledgeable spren, calls Cultivation/the Nightwatcher "mother." Not sure however how that would fit in the timeline of the development of the giant crustacean life on Roshar, that according to a WOB, require spren to exist. Then again, once you throw magic in, creatures no longer need an evolutionary timescale to develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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