Amaram Arrival

[AerionBFII]

I was just thinking that Amaram seems to be quite a high ranking Lighteye, so by default when he came to the Shattered Plains he would have brought a retinue?? Aka Roshone and Laral maybe?? I can see this provoking Kaladin to epic levels!

 

What do you guys think if they all had a reunion?

Edited February 21, 2014 by WEZ313

[+eveorjoy]

I doubt it. Reshone was too badly injured to do much traveling and Laral wouldn't travel without him.

 

However, I have wondered of Hesina and Lirin might have ended up following Amaram's army. It is doubtful, but that is a more likely reunion the Laral. I think Laral will remain a sad memory for Kaladin and nothing more.

[AerionBFII]

Oh that makes sense...thanks for crippling my theory haha

I was hoping for a 'How do you like me now?'

Edited February 21, 2014 by WEZ313

[The Rooster]

Wouldn't he be beholden to Sadeas?  I mean if he lives in Sadeas' territory how is he going to help out Dalinar?  Does he have the independence to do whatever he wants militarily?

[Moogle]

Wouldn't he be beholden to Sadeas?  I mean if he lives in Sadeas' territory how is he going to help out Dalinar?  Does he have the independence to do whatever he wants militarily?

 

Unlikely, but we know Shallan's father was making a bid for highprince with the aid of the Ghostbloods because the old highprince was ailing.

 

Sadeas is ailing too. He's in the beginning stages of enemy-of-Dalinar. This tends to be terminal.

 

Amaram, with Restares' aid, could make a bid for highprince I think.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Moogle

[Shardlet]

Amaram puzzles me in a number of ways.  By all appearances he is Sadeas's most renowned general.  Now, this comes from Kaladin's perspective who would have been very young when the War of Reckoning was entered into and therefore may mean that Amaram is the most renown of Sadeas's genereals remaining in Alethkar.  Nevertheless, why wasn't Amaram at the Shattered plains the whole time?  Perhaps there is some friction between Amaram and Sadeas. Thus, Sadeas brings Amaram to the plains only when he must politicaly (owing to Amaram now being a shardbearer).  This may also explain why Amaram is not brought to the plains until many many months after becoming a shardbearer.

[+eveorjoy]

Sadeas is ailing too. He's in the beginning stages of enemy-of-Dalinar. This tends to be terminal.

 

Amaram, with Restares' aid, could make a bid for highprince I think.

 

I think Sadeas's true illness is "losing relevance to the overall plot" syndrome. If he were an engaging enemy he could last all five books. But who knows, he might improve in the later chapters of WoR.

 

I agree, Amaram may want to try and become Highprince.

[The Rooster]

I think Sadeas's true illness is "losing relevance to the overall plot" syndrome. If he were an engaging enemy he could last all five books. But who knows, he might improve in the later chapters of WoR.

 

I agree, Amaram may want to try and become Highprince.

 

 

Given that Sadeas seems like a mustache twirler and a powder-puff for all of way of kings.  Before pulling what would have been the most devastating and decisive political and military maneuver I can even imagine (at least is it weren't for that meddling Kaladin).  I think its safe to say he will remain a relevant antagonist.

[Luke.spence]

There's also the fact that Amaram is much more like Dalinar than Sadeas. He's noted as wearing his military uniform every time we've seen him, and it's kept neat with no noted flares like the other lighteyes seem to use. He is also noted as being respectful to every man, regardless of position, which is MUCH more like Dalinar than Sadeas. 

 

I agree that the reason he was left behind is there's issues between him and Sadeas. It's also interesting to note that Dalinar received him so warmly, which is quite different from his disgust for most other lighteyes. Amaram is probably very similar to Dalinar, except that Amaram enslaved Kaladin for a shardblade, and Dalinar freed Kaladin with a shardblade.

[The Rooster]

I agree that the reason he was left behind is there's issues between him and Sadeas. It's also interesting to note that Dalinar received him so warmly, which is quite different from his disgust for most other lighteyes. Amaram is probably very similar to Dalinar, except that Amaram enslaved Kaladin for a shardblade, and Dalinar freed Kaladin with a shardblade.

Good Juxtaposition.

[Luke.spence]

I actually only just realized that as I wrote that. I feel stupid that I didn't realize it until now.

[Gloom]

It's also likely that Amaram was one of Gavilars supporters from back in the day. If this wasn't the case it is less likely that Dalinar would know him well.

 

The reality is that Amaram is, or at least acts, a lot like Dalinar, but Amaram has a streak of ruthless pragmatism that allows him to justify pretty much anything to himself when the stakes are high enough while Dalinar will abide by his code of honor regardless of the personal cost to himself.

[Moogle]

The reality is that Amaram is, or at least acts, a lot like Dalinar, but Amaram has a streak of ruthless pragmatism that allows him to justify pretty much anything to himself when the stakes are high enough while Dalinar will abide by his code of honor regardless of the personal cost to himself.

 

Do you have an example in the case of Dalinar? So far, Dalinar's honor has never had much in the way of personal cost to himself (though it has had a very high cost for those following him), whereas Amaram has been put in situations of life and death where he had to choose between honor and pragmatism.

 

As to the comparison's between Amaram and Dalinar, I find them very apt. I can see why they would be good friends.

[Gloom]

Dalinar gave his Shardblade to his worst enemy for the sake of his honor. He didn't have to do this. No one else would have even considered making that offer.

[Moogle]

Dalinar gave his Shardblade to his worst enemy for the sake of his honor. He didn't have to do this. No one else would have even considered making that offer.

 

You're arguing that Dalinar had a huge "personal cost" when he traded a Shardblade for a Surgebinder and thousands of men capable of replenishing the army he just got 3/4s of killed. Oh, and when he already intended to give away his Plate to Renarin, making his Blade useless.

 

I'm sorry, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here; I think that was an excellent trade in which Dalinar came out ahead.

 

I also note this WoB, which paints Dalinar in a surprisingly pragmatic light, saying that his primary motivation wasn't even 'thank you' to the bridgemen or keeping a promise (I approve more of Dalinar as a result of this WoB):

Arcanist

6. As Dalinar gave his Shardblade to Highprince Sadeas, was his motivation only to free the Brigdemen as “Thank you” for the help? Or did he already plan to build a team from soldiers who are loyal only to him?

Brandon Sanderson

He certainly saw the side benefits. However, his primary motive was to make a statement. Not just as a thank you, but as a way of proclaiming to all of the Alethi "What we have been doing is wrong. This wealth is not worth the lives of men."

(source)

 

I think Dalinar has more layers to him than just "be super honorable in every situation ever" - Ned Stark is a perfect example of what I am thinking of. I want to see Dalinar brought to the brink where he seriously considers giving up his honor because it will cause him great pain otherwise (and then is honorable anyways because that would be very inspiring). The Heralds had to be tortured for millennia to give up their honor - where's Dalinar's limit?

 

I don't want to risk derailing this thread any further, so I will simply say that I don't think Dalinar has truly faced a situation where he has had a huge personal cost to upholding his honor like Amaram has. When Dalinar has to risk his son's life to keep to his honor, I'll concede the point. I don't disagree that he would hold to his honor in a situation like that, but I am waiting to see it.

 

 

Edit: Thread appears to have started derailing as a result of this post. I need to learn to keep my mouth closed. See my next post for the derailing. I apologize. I thought this might happen. I will no longer be responding to posts in this thread about Dalinar. Please PM me if you have an argument you'd like to discuss, or start a new thread.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Magnanimous Taz]

I think it's safe to say Dalinar had that moment on the tower. He and Adolin both could have escaped across the chasms but instead they chose to follow the codes and stay, and presumably, die with their men. Seems like that fits your criteria pretty well.

[Moogle]

I think it's safe to say Dalinar had that moment on the tower. He and Adolin both could have escaped across the chasms but instead they chose to follow the codes and stay, and presumably, die with their men. Seems like that fits your criteria pretty well.

 

The chasms were too wide to jump. Sadeas specifically chose the Tower for his betrayal due to this reason.

 

There had been no discussion of trying, perhaps, to leap the chasms and flee. With chasms so wide, the chances were slim—but beyond that, they would not abandon their men to die.

 

I grant that Dalinar claims he wouldn't abandon them, but I think that people have a way of rationalizing things. Dalinar never had the option, so there was no self-sacrifice. He notes his one regret was leaving Renarin alone; I think there's a good chance he might have leaped the chasm, or sent Adolin to leap it, in order to not leave Renarin alone.

 

 

This is quickly going off-topic, for which I apologize. I thought this might happen. I will no longer be responding to posts in this thread about Dalinar. Please PM me if you have an argument you'd like to discuss, or start a new thread.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Shardlet]

 You're arguing that Dalinar had a huge "personal cost" when he traded a Shardblade for a Surgebinder and thousands of men capable of replenishing the army he just got 3/4s of killed. Oh, and when he already intended to give away his Plate to Renarin, making his Blade useless.

 

I think you have some poor points here Moogle.  1) Dalinar has no idea that Kaladin is a surgebinder.  So that doesn't factor into the calculus of Dalinar's decision.  2) Dalinar has seen Sadeas's bridgemen.  While bridge four is exceptional most of the rest are wretches, criminals (at least allegedly) and slaves.  3) There are only about 1000 bridgemen almost all of whom are untrained militarily.  Not the best exchange for several thousand well-trained and highly disciplined soldiers.  Certainly not much of a replenishment.  4) A shardblade is hardly worthless in battle without plate.  There are at least a few shardbearers in the Alethi armies who hold only a blade.  Truly, this would not be as effective as if they were to all have plate as well.  But still far more potent than an ordinary spearman or swordsman.  Yes, this was a tremendous sacrifice.  Otherwise the message that Dalinar was trying to send would have been a quiet one.  Instead, Dalinar sent a message that would be impossible for the Alethi to ignore.  He firmly established the value he places on the lives of men and this will destroy any talk or belief that Dalinar's word are hollow.

 

As to Amaram's sacrifice, I don't see any immediate need for him to take the plate and blade.  Had Kaladin initially taken the plate and blade, I don't see any indication that Amaram would have moved to prevent him.  Likewise, I suspect that Amaram had every intention of allowing Kaladin to take of the plate and blade in the command center.  Else, he would have bonded to the blade before entering into the room.  Rather than doing it in front of Kaladin.  By all appearances, Amaram did not have an immediate need to take the plate and blade.  His "sacrifice" was a planned contingency that would be acted on if Kaladin continued to refuse the plate and blade.  Doesn't seem to be a sacrifice so much as a decision made which compromised his honor.  I don't see any justification for it at all.

[WitSpren]

I think you have some poor points here Moogle.  1) Dalinar has no idea that Kaladin is a surgebinder.  So that doesn't factor into the calculus of Dalinar's decision.  2) Dalinar has seen Sadeas's bridgemen.  While bridge four is exceptional most of the rest are wretches, criminals (at least allegedly) and slaves.  3) There are only about 1000 bridgemen almost all of whom are untrained militarily.  Not the best exchange for several thousand well-trained and highly disciplined soldiers.  Certainly not much of a replenishment.  4) A shardblade is hardly worthless in battle without plate.  There are at least a few shardbearers in the Alethi armies who hold only a blade.  Truly, this would not be as effective as if they were to all have plate as well.  But still far more potent than an ordinary spearman or swordsman.  Yes, this was a tremendous sacrifice.  Otherwise the message that Dalinar was trying to send would have been a quiet one.  Instead, Dalinar sent a message that would be impossible for the Alethi to ignore.  He firmly established the value he places on the lives of men and this will destroy any talk or belief that Dalinar's word are hollow.

 

This is the way that I see it.

 

On the Amaram's part, I disagree.    It sounded like he had already been convinced that him having the Shards was better for his people that Kal having it.     He just appeared to be seeking final confirmation.     That said, it is strange that he had not already "taken" posession of it.     So you may be right and I may be wrong on that.

[AerionBFII]

This is the way that I see it.

 

On the Amaram's part, I disagree.    It sounded like he had already been convinced that him having the Shards was better for his people that Kal having it.     He just appeared to be seeking final confirmation.     That said, it is strange that he had not already "taken" posession of it.     So you may be right and I may be wrong on that.

@WitSpren i love your your name and i agree!!

I think Restares talked him into it (one of the guys Gavilar suspected.) 

I also think that greed was a factor and wouldn't have taken much too sway him.

 

For all we know he really could be the man most see him as a 'true lighteyes' and this could have been a weak moment but he seems to be in the line of thinking that sacrificing one for many is the best thing to do but thankfully for that he wont be a Radiant so Kal can still kick his chull 

[EvilKetchupCow]

On dailnar. Here offered all off the bridgemen he freed a purse and freedom. The wob makes it seem like he was more focused on replenishment but I think that is intentionally miss leading. He also wanted to help men who had lived horrible lives running bridges at incoming arrows.