Pinpoint Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Eshonai: When those songs were memorized, our people were mostly dullform.” It was a form of low intelligence, low capacity. They used it now to spy on the humans. Once, it and mateform had been the only forms her people had known. I think Shen is a Parshendi in dull form. He exhibits emotions and acts more intelligent than a Parshman 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duskshard Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I don't think that Shen is a Listener spy. I think that he was a genuine Parshman that didn't have any Form, just like the Listners didn't before they escaped the humans and there gods. Being that he's started to act differently I think he might of learnt Dull Form from his time spent with bridge four, and hopefully being aroulf Kaladin and bridge four he'll grow and learn more Forms. I'm hoping Honorform. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harsh Varia Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think it makes a lot of sense if Shen is a spy or a parshman who learns forms. Otherwise his character is wasted. He has received a lot of screen time up until now to be otherwise. I vote for spy. That could allow him to transform to a mediator between the races. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I've been reading WoK recently, and I just came to the part where Shen joins Bridge 4. Kaladin very specifically says, "it's not like he's a spy." That my friends is the literary tool called foreshadowing. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_warko Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I thought that a Parshman was a Parshendi in dull form? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robot Aztec Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I thought that a Parshman was a Parshendi in dull form? no that is slaevform Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think it makes a lot of sense if Shen is a spy or a parshman who learns forms. Otherwise his character is wasted. He has received a lot of screen time up until now to be otherwise. I vote for spy. That could allow him to transform to a mediator between the races. No one trusts a spy to be a mediator. It makes more sense if Shen, experiencing new emotions, is discovering a new form - one that will allow him to be the bridge between human and Listener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumHarmonix Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 If Shen is a spy, why has he apparently not reported that Kaladin is a surgebinder? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I suspect he is in slaveform, but will gain a form and show everyone how parshmen can become listeners again. Also, Duskshard, the idea of Honorform blows my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) I think it is possible that Shen is a spy. But I think it would also be cool if he was just an ordinary Parshman who gained dullform without any help from the Parshendi. Or he could have been the result of (covert) experimentation by some Alethi scientist who wanted to understand the difference between Parshmen and Parshendi. The aside made by Kaladin regarding Shen might have been foreshadowing that Shen will be wrongly accused of espionage once news spreads about the actual Parshendi spies. Edited January 30, 2014 by skaa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 This thread title made me wonder if "______ is such a dullform!" is a common insult among Parshendi. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duskshard Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I suspect he is in slaveform, but will gain a form and show everyone how parshmen can become listeners again. Also, Duskshard, the idea of Honorform blows my mind. I know right. How cool would that be. Shen discovering Honorform and that would protect him from any hold Odium could have on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrim Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I know right. How cool would that be. Shen discovering Honorform and that would protect him from any hold Odium could have on him. I've seen you mention this before, but I'm curious to know how you think this would be possible. Not that it isn't, but to me it would seem unlikely as Syl is the only 'honorspren' that was allowed to come back. <-- This being contingent on said honorform requiring honorspren to achieve the form, but I think that's a fairly safe assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duskshard Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) I've seen you mention this before, but I'm curious to know how you think this would be possible. Not that it isn't, but to me it would seem unlikely as Syl is the only 'honorspren' that was allowed to come back. <-- This being contingent on said honorform requiring honorspren to achieve the form, but I think that's a fairly safe assumption. I've got no evidence to support it, it's just something that I think would be cool if it did happen. About Syl, she wasn't allowed to come back. She came even though she was forbidden and risked death in doing so. That doesn't mean that more might not risk coming in the future, or that the stormfather might change his mind and allow them to come and bond to those they find honorable. How it could be possible? Well I guess it could be possible from being around and learning about honor from Kaladin just like any other member of bridge four could. Potentially. Edited January 30, 2014 by Duskshard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilKetchupCow Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 If Shen is a spy, why has he apparently not reported that Kaladin is a surgebinder? We know from the released chapters that the Parshendi know about surgebinders. They might know about Kaladin, they might not. We don't have enough information at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumHarmonix Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 We know from the released chapters that the Parshendi know about surgebinders. They might know about Kaladin, they might not. We don't have enough information at this point. I think they refer to Kaladin in the interlude, but seem unsure if he is a surgebinder or has a honorblade. If Shen was a spy, I'd expect them to know that Kaladin is a surgebinder. With their shared songs I doubt they would need to pass messages, but it is possible that Shen hasn't reported in yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 If Shen is a spy, why has he apparently not reported that Kaladin is a surgebinder? I think that Shen is a spy, and that he legitimately grew to like Kaladin. I think he reported Kaladin as being one of the only humans to treat parshmen with any manner of decency. Then when Kaladin started wearing parts of dead Parshendii, he outted Kaladin as being a monster - not that they could not see for themselves... But really just because Kaladin claims they always have an understanding for who he is in particular when he goes on bridge runs. At least, I would like it to go something like that. For Shen to be a normal person observing and reporting on Kaladin's character as he changes into a better person over time. Then when Shen is outted, he can reveal himself and they can be bff's 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owen Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I can't quite remember the details, but don't the parshendi recognize that Kal is sucking the stormlight out of the gems in their beards? I thought they reorganized themselves during one of the plateau battles so that the bearded gem folks weren't around him. IF that actually happened, they could know about Alethi surge binders without needing a spy. Or I might have just made that all up. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrutiny Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I can't quite remember the details, but don't the parshendi recognize that Kal is sucking the stormlight out of the gems in their beards? I thought they reorganized themselves during one of the plateau battles so that the bearded gem folks weren't around him. IF that actually happened, they could know about Alethi surge binders without needing a spy. Or I might have just made that all up. . . If we go with the theory that Szeth surge binds because he has an honor blade, we know that Szeth must also inhale to become infused so this really does not answer that they have a true surge binder or an honor blade wielder. I have to agree with Quantum that if Shen were a spy he would have by the time (minimum of 2 platue runs after Bridge 4 found out about his surege binding) of the interlude reported that Kaladin was a true surge binder. So in my humble opinion Shen is here to teach both Humans and Listeners alike that Listeners can assume new safe forms. Jasnah is right that the listeners can be the voidbringers, but so can humans. But not every Listener is going to be Evil, just those that choose or are tricked into assuming those types of forms, just like humans choose through their free will. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorMLyon Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think that Shen is slaveform who will learn to be something more than he is. The one doubt I have about Shen being is a spy is that I have a hard believing the Listeners would want to have a spy among the bridge crews? It makes more sense to have spies with the Alethi highprinces and other leaders where they can go unnoticed, picking up information. A parshman among the crews stands out, and would have a hard time learning anything. Of course, not that there is much a spy could learn about Alethi strategy in the crews. Though, a spy would be in a good position to do some sabotage.... Of course, do we know why Shen was placed with the bridge crews? Maybe he got caught doing something he shouldn't have... Hmmm..... I am not sure if I just talked myself into changing my mind or not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremen Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I know right. How cool would that be. Shen discovering Honorform and that would protect him from any hold Odium could have on him. The Listeners seem honorable enough without needing Honorform. If they are servants of Odium it isn't because they're evil and lack honor, but rather because they are honorbound to follow him. As such Honorform would actually make it harder for them to resist Odium. This is the same reason Szeth commits evil acts, his honor demands he follow the commands of whomever holds the oathstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Hey guys, no worries, worst case scenario is Shen sucking up Syl and gaining some new form while tearing Kaladin away from his powers. No big deal. I don't think that is how listener-spren interactions work, but the thought crossed my mind and my eyes widened in horror. hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 The Listeners seem honorable enough without needing Honorform. You know what just reeks of honor? Signing a peace treaty and then assassinating the head of the other side. Woah, they might be Honor's champion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremen Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 You know what just reeks of honor? Signing a peace treaty and then assassinating the head of the other side. Woah, they might be Honor's champion. and making sure the assassin wears white because Gavilar deserves to see him coming AND making sure the assassin was seen in their retinue AND then admitting responsibility after the deed was done seriously, if they wanted they could have had Szeth kill Gavilar and feigned ignorance 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duskshard Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 The Listeners seem honorable enough without needing Honorform. If they are servants of Odium it isn't because they're evil and lack honor, but rather because they are honorbound to follow him. As such Honorform would actually make it harder for them to resist Odium. This is the same reason Szeth commits evil acts, his honor demands he follow the commands of whomever holds the oathstone. If this were true and they were honorbound to follow him then why would they want to escape and live free from their gods? Why would they kill the king and bring war to themselves to stop him from doing something that would bring about the return of their gods? The way I've been thinking about it is if Odium returns he'll be able to take control of them somehow like Ruin did to the Koloss, and that learning Honorform would be protection, a way of breaking his hold on them. I'm not even sure I believe that their of Odium, the more I read about the Thrill the more I believe that it is of Odium and feeling it means he can exert influence on you. Could also be why to the Shin a warrior is the lowest in society, that to feel the Thrill for battle leaves you touched by Odium. It's all just speculation at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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