Kaladin is key to the Parshendi's fate

[vikorr]

Hi All

 

I started this as a reply to 'Parshendi Genocide' and then figured it needed a topic all of it's own.

 

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I've always had the thought that Kaladin was going to be key to this whole book, and in particular, the Parshendi's role in the whole book, for the following reasons :

 

- The Parshendi refer to him a 'Neshua Kadal' and seem to fear him (or perhaps fear & rever him, considering their reaction when he saved Dalinar, and they stayed put around him). I see no reason why they would fear him as a baselevelsurgebinder over a shardbearer...it appears to be prophecy

- The Parshendi are honourable

- Kaladin finds the Parshendi honourable, and respects them

- Dalinar must select a Champion (this has been said to him twice now)

 

(Speculation: "Neshua Kadal" means 'Champion', which may be more fearful than a shardbearer, if he's meant to take on Odium's champion)

 

Now combine WoK with the new chapters from WoR and we see that :

 

- Kaladin 'rescued' Shen, and did not treat him like a slave

- Kaladin & Bridge 4 accept Shen as free, and not a slave...this is absolutely unprecedented

- Shen has started acting differently...just slightly more free

- Kaladin is inquisitive, and even compassionate with Shen about his people.

 

So yeah, I think Kaladin (incl. Shen) is key to the fate of the Parshendi, and by extension, to the Human Race.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

It's a good theory and I can see kaladin playing the "champion" role but I don't fully agree that is why the parshendi react to him the way they do. In Eshonai's interlude, the parshendi are searching out how to recover their lost forms which involves bonding spren. I imagine "Nashua Kadal" means something like knights radiant. They know the KR bond spren to gain part of their abilities so they are fearful to attack kaladin partly because they know what KR are capable of but also because they think he might be able to help them recover their lost forms. Just my thoughts on it.

[Aleksiel]

I assumed 'Neshua Kadal' meant something like KR or surgebinder. Parshedi seem unafraid of Shardbearers, it's something you can win against while a surgebinder is a whole different story. They changed tactics because of Kaladins ability, he is more dangerous as he uses their own spheres against them because of the stormlight in them.

 

Why should Dalinar pick a Champion? I don't remember this.

[lummi]

Why should Dalinar pick a Champion? I don't remember this.

 

Because the Almighty  (Honor) said that Odium is bound by some rules and that can possibly save the world.

[Aleksiel]

Really?! I don't remember Honor talking to Dalinar about Odium at all, can you tell what chapter is that so I can re-read it?

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Why should Dalinar pick a Champion? I don't remember this.

In Dalinar's last vision from WoK, Tanavast told him that he might be able to force Odium to choose a champion which would give them a little more of a chance since there are certain rules he still has to follow. I'm not sure if Tanavast said anything about Dalinar having to pick a champion as well to face him but I think that is what vikorr is referencing.

Edit: too slow on that one

Edited January 23, 2014 by Awesomeness summoned

[Shardlet]

I think you've got some great thoughts here, vikorr.  I also think that Kaladin and Shen will be very critical to how things play out between the Alethi and the Parshendi.  

 

Some food for thought, I suspect that Shen is a Parshendi spy.  This could be good or bad.  We'll have to wait and see.  

 

What if Neshua Kadal is the Parshendi name for their dark gods?  This would account for both the fear and respect.  Spren began to resume bonding at or soon before the night of Gavilar's assassination.  Perhaps Gavilar did something that resulted in the return of Nahel spren.  Perhaps this is what the Parshendi sought to prevent in much the same way that darkness appears to.

[vikorr]

Tanavast has mentioned twice in Dalinar's visions that he must pick a champion. Once when Dalinar saw the Everstorm vision, and once in a WoR vision.

 

As for 'Neshua Kadal' meaning KR, and fearing Kaladin for that reason :

 

In terms of awe :

- they possess Shardplate from Knights Radiant, which would diminish the 'fear' of KR

 

In terms of obviously being a Knight Radiant :

- Kaladin wears no KR Plate

- Kaladin is just a base surgebinder - KR showed better abilities than him.

 

In terms of 'fear' :

- they go willingly to almost certain death against Shardbearers

- they know they can kill shardbearers (just that it's extremely difficult)

- they respect those with great skill

 

...so fearing Kaladin, who isn't wearing Shardplate, and only shows the minimal amount of stormlight usage - doesn't really make sense

 

Hence, it appears to mean something other than 'Knight Radiant', and why it appears to be prophecy.

 

edit : wow, lots of posts while I was replying.

Edited January 23, 2014 by vikorr

[Aleksiel]

In Dalinar's last vision from WoK, Tanavast told him that he might be able to force Odium to choose a champion which would give them a little more of a chance since there are certain rules he still has to follow. I'm not sure if Tanavast said anything about Dalinar having to pick a champion as well to face him but I think that is what vikorr is referencing.

Edit: too slow on that one

I found it, thank you.

 

 

You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain.

Well, it sounds to me that Odium should choose a champion, not Dalinar.

[vikorr]

Perhaps this is what the Parshendi sought to prevent in much the same way that darkness appears to.

 

Hi Shardlet, I always presumed that Darkness influenced the Parshendi to believe that a return of Surgebinders would trigger a return of their 'terrible gods'...but that Darkness is wrong on the whole thing, hence Eshonai's comment 'well that didn't work out' (and them going to the shattered plains to be 'separated from their gods'.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

In terms of awe :

- they possess Shardplate from Knights Radiant, which would diminish the 'fear' of KR

I don't buy that. I'm sorry, but if a windrunner was coming after me, I'd be pissing my pants even if I had a shardblade and full plate.

In terms of obviously being a Knight Radiant :

- Kaladin wears no KR Plate

- Kaladin is just a base surgebinder - KR showed better abilities than him.

Shards are no longer the identifying mark of a KR. Tons of non surgebinders have them and as you said even the Parshendi do. To say the parshendi wouldn't believe he was a potential KR cause he wasn't wearing plate just isn't true. Very few people have seen surgebinding in action so in my opinion that would be the tell tale sign to look for when identifying potential spren bonds in humans. For all we know they could actually see Syl and knew from that that he was a potential KR. As I said, they are interested in the bond, not if he was a full KR.

 

In terms of 'fear' :

As for fearing him, I only used that word to describe their reaction to him because that was the word you used. I personally felt it seemed more like reverence when I read that chapter.

[Shardlet]

Tanavast has mentioned twice in Dalinar's visions that he must pick a champion. Once when Dalinar saw the Everstorm vision, and once in a WoR vision.

 

As for 'Neshua Kadal' meaning KR, and fearing Kaladin for that reason :

 

In terms of awe :

- they possess Shardplate from Knights Radiant, which would diminish the 'fear' of KR

 

In terms of obviously being a Knight Radiant :

- Kaladin wears no KR Plate

- Kaladin is just a base surgebinder - KR showed better abilities than him.

 

In terms of 'fear' :

- they go willingly to almost certain death against Shardbearers

- they know they can kill shardbearers (just that it's extremely difficult)

- they respect those with great skill

 

...so fearing Kaladin, who isn't wearing Shardplate, and only shows the minimal amount of stormlight usage - doesn't really make sense

 

Hence, it appears to mean something other than 'Knight Radiant', and why it appears to be prophecy.

 

edit : wow, lots of posts while I was replying.

 

I think it is also important to recognize that the Parshendi don't appear to have vast records of previous desolations.  They likely are working off of an oral history handed down through their songs and their own persoanl experience.  That means that none of the Parshendi have seen a KR unless they live a very very long time.  Having seen and used plate and blade, it is not likely that they would particularly associate them with their dark gods even if Neshua Kadal did refer to KR.  One of the most distinguishing features of KR armor would likely be that it glowed.  In contrast, the shardplate is painted.  Seems like it would make for an easy disconnect.

 

I would suspect that the term likely refers to Kaladin's surgebinding or that they applied it to Kaladin due to his surgebinding.  As to Eshonai's comment about it not working out, if they were trying to prevent a resurgence of surgebinding, then it clearly didn't work out since there is obviously a resurgence of surgebinding.

[vikorr]

I would suspect that the term likely refers to Kaladin's surgebinding or that they applied it to Kaladin due to his surgebinding.  

 

err..yes...that was one of the points of my post - why they fled from that, when they will stand face to face with a shardbearer, and admire skill...they would seem to have very little reason to fear a surgebinder to such an extent more, that they fled...in their view, more likely (as we see after Kaladin jumps off the bridge) - they appear to relish the challenge (and not back away from it)

 

As to Eshonai's comment about it not working out, if they were trying to prevent a resurgence of surgebinding, then it clearly didn't work out since there is obviously a resurgence of surgebinding.

 

 

 

Err, no, what I meant was that it appears to me that Darkness convinced them that stopping KR / Surgebinders from returning would stop their Gods from returning...but Eshonai's thoughts are specifically in relation to her gods, not surgebinding.

 

Instead, she and the others had ordered the murder of their king in a desperate gambit to stop the Parshendi gods from returning. Well, that hadn’t worked out....and...They named it Neurock, exile, for it was where they had come to be separated from their gods

 

 

 

After the first lot of Parshendi fleeing 'Neshua Kadal'  (when Kaladin sucks all the arrows into his shield) being response Type 1, it begs the question as to why :

- they fought Kaladin when he was glowing after he leapt from the bridge into their midst (response Type 2);

- stayed but didn't interfere when Kaladin interrupted Dalinar's fight with Eshonai (response Type 3)

 

As for fearing him, I only used that word to describe their reaction to him because that was the word you used. I personally felt it seemed more like reverence when I read that chapter. 

 

Well, reverence would fit in with my OP...but had I said that alone, it would have caused a whole heap of 'justify that stance' posts, and using your version that they revere KR's 'why would Parshendi revere knights radiant - they were the historical enemy'

 

It's a troubling set of responses from the Parshendi, and I would think that prophecy is the most 'fitting' reason, but in any event, their responses appear to benefit Kaladin as being key to the Parshendi fate.

 

edit : spelling / formatting...wish there was a preview

Edited January 24, 2014 by vikorr

[el_warko]

Well, it sounds to me that Odium should choose a champion, not Dalinar.

 

Aren't there are always two though?  Champion vs. Champion, Roshar on the line.  Place bets now.

[Morsk]

On the Neshua Kadal thing, I think all the weird Parshendi tactics are due to biases and instincts in war form. They call it "war" form, but it sure looks like "tribal skirmish vs. other Parshendi" form. They won't commit unequal numbers, and always let the enemy retreat? That's not a war form. If everyone on your planet is Parshendi, this is a nice "feature" of war form that keeps them from killing too many of each other. It's a terrible way of fighting someone who really wants you dead.

The form is terrible at fighting Surgebinders, so "Neshua Kadal" would be one of its instincts: don't do that, especially not wearing Stormlight. You'll just die, and the entire point of this form is to minimize causalities on both sides. Another Parshendi in another form needs to fight the Surgebinder.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 Is it possible to share spren? what would a link between parshendi and men mean?

[vikorr]

The form is terrible at fighting Surgebinders, so "Neshua Kadal" would be one of its instincts: don't do that, especially not wearing Stormlight. You'll just die, and the entire point of this form is to minimize causalities on both sides. Another Parshendi in another form needs to fight the Surgebinder. 

 

I actually like this line of thought (as it could explain response types 1 & 3) - though it doesn't explain why they did in fact fight him (response Type 2) after he jumped the chasm from the end of the bridge (he was blazing stormlight then)

[Kyzkle]

I thought that they feared him because he we surgebinding. It wasn't an instinctive fear, but a rational and focused one. The Parshendi believed that Gavilar was about to do something that would bring back the Old Gods, and Darkness says that he is hunting people who do things that could bring back the Desolations. Given that Jasnah believes the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, I think it's a common belief that the "Old Gods" are related to the Desolations (possible Thunderclasts or corrupt Spren).

 

They don't fear Kaladin's surgebinding because it is incredibly deadly, they fear it because they believe he is going to bring back the Desolations by using it. It makes sense, then, that they would fear Kaladin, but do everything they can to kill him.

 

On the OP's point, I think that Eshonai will meet with Kaladin at some point, but he won't be able to help them for lack of any real influence in the army (an easy mistake to make, because Eshonai doesn't realize that nobody in the army knows of Kaladin's power). Shen will probably set up the meeting, as he is steadily becoming more independent (bonding a spren, perhaps?)

[vikorr]

On the OP's point, I think that Eshonai will meet with Kaladin at some point, but he won't be able to help them for lack of any real influence in the army (an easy mistake to make, because Eshonai doesn't realize that nobody in the army knows of Kaladin's power). Shen will probably set up the meeting, as he is steadily becoming more independent (bonding a spren, perhaps?)

 

Shen may bond a spren...he's certainly changing, and Eshonai is trying to initiate change as a way of discovering new forms. 

 

On Kaladin not having any real influence, there's quite a bit of foreshadowing in the books, with:

 

- first & foremost : Dalinar saying 'All of Roshar needs you', and

- Tanavast telling Dalinar to choose a champion (when the fate of the world rides on a champion, the champions word carries a lot of weight), and 

 

Refer all the below to the top two, and:

 

Add to that :

- Dalinar going to re-establish the Knights Radiant, and Kaladin thinking he will need to help; and

- Syl's comments 'Even your enemies and some lighteyes looked up to you'; and

- Kaladin is the major character in the book

 

Add to that :

 

- Kaladins survived the Stormfathers judgement, and was already considered a 'miracle' in Sadeas army (ie famous)

- Kaladin is now a hero to over 2600 soldiers (and by extension the rest of Dalinar's army) - he's now famous in Dalinars army

- Kaladin is a slave that his freedom purchased with a shardblade - he is going to be absolutely famous everywhere

- Kaladin is the only Darkeyed Captain that anyone knows about - he'll be somewhat famous for that alone

 

Added to that traits such as:

- Kaladin being such a natural leader; and

- Kaladin being the only one with an Honorspren (who do you most trust not to be corrupted, not be a spy, and to do the right thing?)

 

Add to that :

- it appears that Szeth is about to put in an apperance, and Kaladin will need to reveal his powers to defeat Szeth (that will carry it's own fame when all others have fallen before him). He's now known as a force against 'evil' ('evil' being szeth in the lighteyes eyes, of course), and the rescuer of High Princes.

 

And it's not hard to forecast that Kaladin will gain the required influence (even if it's a rocky road)

Edited January 24, 2014 by vikorr

[vikorr]

They don't fear Kaladin's surgebinding because it is incredibly deadly, they fear it because they believe he is going to bring back the Desolations by using it. It makes sense, then, that they would fear Kaladin, but do everything they can to kill him.

 

This explanation only explains response type 2 : fighting Kaladin. It doesn't explain response Type 1 : 'Fleeing Kaladin' and Type 3 : 'standing around watching Kaladin as he saved Dalinar, and not interfering with his escape'.

 

edit : spelling / formatting.

Edited January 24, 2014 by vikorr