08/01/16 - Waning, ch.10

[neongrey]

Previously: The living goddess of the city of Ilidria is dead, and the war that has been draining the city continues inexorably. Lasila Vahendra is the youngest daughter of a once-successful merchant house that hasn't traded since she was a child; though she would see this restored, she is still too young, and lacks both the knowledge and resources to do so. Her only remaining family, her brother Varinen, has no head for business at all, and has his own means of attempting to restore the family: he accepts a bodyguard position for a senator going to peace talks, in the hopes of ending the war.

Left to fend for herself, Lasila steps up her plans to restore the business, laying groundwork to complete her schooling. She finds herself invited to attend the celebration of the goddess' rebirth; before he goes, her brother secures an escort for her. Hoping to forge potential contacts for later business, Lasila attends: and learns that she carries the capacity to learn the very magic that has been destroying her people. It is not only pain and disease; this power can be used in ways that would revolutionize transport of goods. She consents to learn, despite it being illegal to do so, and despite a loose suspicion that any other response would have been hazardous to her health.

Emboldened, she makes acquaintance with a young man of about her own age, and takes him aside.

Savae doesn't return until next time, so I'll put a pin in their recap.

This time: Not only a goddess is reborn.

So: with this, we're closing out the first major section of the story (and my buffer is running short, lol, I need to do better things with my time) . So, at this point, I've got a question and it's just for some of you. A few of you are saying you're not very interested in Lasila's storyline. I'd like you to be more specific, please. As specific as you possibly can; pull it apart and look at the pieces and tell me why it's not working for you. I'm particularly interested in knowing what exact markers you're reading as 'active' or 'not active', if that's an issue for you, and why you're reading them that way.

[kais]

Overall

The ceremony started slowly and I was confused with blocking at the start, but I loved the middle and end. Very beautiful imagery, and the more emotions you convey via wings, the cooler it gets. The end fell flat for me. After such a neat ceremony, the clean ups at the end seemed unnecessary.

Question about Lasilia

I was thinking about this last week after your last submission. Two things I'll share. 

1) When I was first drafting AFD, I had a similar issue with Nick. Betas didn't like him. I liked him, and he did what I needed him to do in the story, but he wasn't polling well. Eventually someone pointed out to me that even though I was writing him true to his character, people needed to be invested in a character, and general dislike wasn't going to cut it. I altered him (alas, in chapters now cut), and it really brought the story together better. Amusingly, I think the reactions from betas were the same for him as for Lasilia. He was whiny. He lacked direction. He didn't take direct action. No one particularly cared about his plot line because of those things. Drove me nuts but in the end, the betas were right. Characters need to be relatable and, while that can come in many forms, irritation is not one of them.

2) I think this type of protag issue is more common in TV and film. For instance, Buffy Summers in Buffy the Vampire Slayer is not a particularly likable character after about the second season. It is the secondary characters that bring that show together. So, I'd say you options are to either rewrite Lasilia a bit, or beef up characters like Savae (whom we all seem to really enjoy) to get buy-in from readers. Or leave it be because it's your novel, and if makes you happy, that's a solid enough reason to leave it.

To specifically answer your question, I don't care for Lasilia's lack of action. She waits for things to happen to her, she doesn't chase them. She is certainly getting better, and I enjoyed her more this chapter, but early on there is a lot of whining at her brother, wandering about, doing things like finance (which I understand the reasoning for, but this is just my direct, visceral reaction) instead of pursuing something she is passionate about. We as readers are used to highly active protags. For better or worse then, when one acts as Lasilia does it seems almost lazy in a sense. If she were a student of mine I'd schedule private meeting with her and have a firm conversation about pulling her life together and going after what she wants. 

I'm not sure if that helps.  

 

As I go

- page one, first paragraph. WRS - I have no idea what the dress enhancement is referring to, and that makes me sad, because, as we know, I am all hands on deck for any orgy play

- page 2: Lasilia thinks of Maranthe, and in my head I am already writing the slash fiction. You have to tell me when this thing goes to print because I am going to fanfic it so hard

- page two: 'her delicate gestures not ceasing' is awkward phrasing

- page 2: "higher and higher' followed by 'brighter and brighter' reads redundant

- page 3: You refer to Maranthe as a 'priest', yet I've seen references to 'priestess'. Purposeful regendering of the word?

- so, wait. Is the little kid they brought out the new goddess? Did she just appear? The wording confuses me

- page 5: Well now. That was a fun reveal!

- page 6: but now I'm confused. Why would Kelriel know her name, if he is her 

Spoiler

father? 

- after the ceremony finishes, the end of the chapter, with meeting her escort, falls flat. After the excitement, this wind down makes me want to skim to the next chapter to catch a glimpse of that excitement again

[neongrey]

2 hours ago, kaisa said:

2) I think this type of protag issue is more common in TV and film. For instance, Buffy Summers in Buffy the Vampire Slayer is not a particularly likable character after about the second season. It is the secondary characters that bring that show together. So, I'd say you options are to either rewrite Lasilia a bit, or beef up characters like Savae (whom we all seem to really enjoy) to get buy-in from readers. Or leave it be because it's your novel, and if makes you happy, that's a solid enough reason to leave it.

To specifically answer your question, I don't care for Lasilia's lack of action. She waits for things to happen to her, she doesn't chase them. She is certainly getting better, and I enjoyed her more this chapter, but early on there is a lot of whining at her brother, wandering about, doing things like finance (which I understand the reasoning for, but this is just my direct, visceral reaction) instead of pursuing something she is passionate about. We as readers are used to highly active protags. For better or worse then, when one acts as Lasilia does it seems almost lazy in a sense. If she were a student of mine I'd schedule private meeting with her and have a firm conversation about pulling her life together and going after what she wants. 

I'm not sure if that helps.  

Ooh, hmm. It does, but in ways I'm not necessarily sure how to approach, because some of what you're reading off this is the literal opposite of the intention; to wit, she's supposed to have a clear goal (restoration of the family as a business entity, social advancement), a defined plan for doing it (complete schooling, pay off the family debts and reinvest the remaining money, work a decent job for contacts and stability until she can get things up and running), and clear pitfalls for messing up (getting stuck in a bank's basement somewhere, poking at dead accounts, going nowhere socially), and clear impediments to doing this (she is not an adult, legally or socially and is being forced to act in these arenas, she doesn't have presently have the resources to fulfil her goals, and she's on a perceived deadline). She is pursuing something she's passionate about, and she's taking direct action toward it (going over the finances, going over schooling options, getting together contacts). The finance is critical to her, but unfortunately I can't so easily just have her take in the smell of the bank and be overwhelmed by all the money in the building.  

So there's clearly some level of disconnect in terms of how what I'm intending is coming off, which, hmm. Certainly she reads more active to me than Savae, who by this point in the story has been entirely moving at the behest of other people; their own goals are entirely off the page thus far (this will change, and shortly, but their story is framed somewhat differently). So, hmmm.

I'm not terribly concerned with her being likeable, per se (certainly few of her antecedents are); but if she's not interesting, then I've got more of an issue. Especially as we go into the next bit, and she sees just what a terrible thing she's agreed to, and she is not bothered at all. My goal is that you don't have to like her at all, but I need you to want to see what she's going to do next. Otherwise there's no point to any of this, of course.

Sigh. I need to figure out how to go about this, because clearly something's not coming out right. I almost wonder if I've started her too early; if I bumped her up a few years and she already had some business off the ground, we could cut sooner to the literal financial wizardry... but, ugh, I'd have so much I'd need to rework... I think I need a complete draft, or at the very least I don't want to go back to the start right now.

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page one, first paragraph. WRS - I have no idea what the dress enhancement is referring to, and that makes me sad, because, as we know, I am all hands on deck for any orgy play

It was basically a magic zipper, haha.

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 2: Lasilia thinks of Maranthe, and in my head I am already writing the slash fiction. You have to tell me when this thing goes to print because I am going to fanfic it so hard

Gosh that sort of thought alone is enough to keep me going on this, haha. I'm not saying I'd totally be one of those authors who writes their own dirty fanfic, b u t.....................

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 3: You refer to Maranthe as a 'priest', yet I've seen references to 'priestess'. Purposeful regendering of the word?

It's a mixed/indeterminate group, and regrettably the neutral of priest is also priest. Possibly not clear enough.

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

- so, wait. Is the little kid they brought out the new goddess? Did she just appear? The wording confuses me

Now I too am confused; what kid?

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 6: but now I'm confused. Why would Kelriel know her name, if he is her 

Possibly not clear enough here, then; he is no such thing. But a god may appear as he pleases, and the Lord of Masks never wears only one.

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

- after the ceremony finishes, the end of the chapter, with meeting her escort, falls flat. After the excitement, this wind down makes me want to skim to the next chapter to catch a glimpse of that excitement again

Hmm, might need a bit of work, but yeah, I do want a bit of a soft drop before going into eleven, which is... very busy in its own, very different way. 

Spoiler

 

[kais]

18 minutes ago, neongrey said:

But a god may appear as he pleases, and the Lord of Masks never wears only one.

Ahh, I see. Yes, I was unclear on this.

18 minutes ago, neongrey said:

what kid?

I read 'small' as young, or kid. Clearly that was my own bias coming into play.

Hooray for Savae drops! Gimme gimme!

19 minutes ago, neongrey said:

I'd totally be one of those authors who writes their own dirty fanfic, b u t.....................

Yeah, I would do this, too. I may or may not have a number of vignettes on hand already, should I ever do a little anthology collection of Ard short stories.

 

[neongrey]

6 minutes ago, kaisa said:

I read 'small' as young, or kid. Clearly that was my own bias coming into play.

Now I am super extra confused because I have no idea what you're referring to here, and I'm not seeing small in any way referring to a person here, hahaha.

[kais]

Here is where my confusion came from. I read 'tiny' and I think just blocked the priestess part out, since I assumed it was a young goddess.
 

" A tiny priestess trailing swathes of silk walked to the head of the altar, and the others attending took places around the opposite side, forming half a circle opposite her."

Edited August 2, 2016 by kaisa

[neongrey]

Ohhh okay, yeah, I see now. I think unless someone else has an issue with that bit it's probably good, then, hehe.

[kais]

So as I sit here, going through book two edits, I realized that one of my nonbinary characters in ASD is named 'Savath'. Coincidence?

[neongrey]

There's just something inherently off-the-binary about two-syllable names starting with 'sava', I guess, lol. Don't tell me the emphasis on yours is on the second syllable too, lololol.

[Mandamon]

Looks like I have similar thoughts (below) to kaisa about Lasila.  I don't have a problem with her being unlikeable, I'm just bored by her sitting around.  I think maybe if you tell (gasp) rather than show some of the things in the first couple chapters just to set up her situation, it will be just as clear.  I can hear that someone needs to watch their money flow without listening to how they cut out coupons to go to five different stores to get basic needs.

Thoughts on Lasila's storyline:
I've actually been enjoying it for the last two or three chapters, and that's mainly because Lasila is "protagging," to use Howard's phrase.  There is a lot of setup at the beginning, but rather than being setup on worldbuilding or plot, it's all about Lasila doing mundane things.  It's not even particularly characterization, because I think I've learned more about her from the last few chapters than from the beginning 5 or 6.  From what I remember (what sticks with me, that is), it largely consists of Lasila getting water, and going to the bank, and trying on clothes, an thinking about finances.  it's just not interesting compared with, say, an orgy and the birth of a goddess!
I think those first chapters also degrade this one a bit, because there was the chance to set up a lot more magic and worldbuilding to be concrete in the reader's mind (WRS or not, if it's interesting, I'm going to remember it better).  This latest chapter was really cool, but I was confused for about half of it because I either didn't remember or didn't have the necessary background from the previous chapters.  Lasila hasn't been directly encountering/learning about it, so I didn't either.

Notes as I read:
pg 1:  uh...sorry to say, but the first paragraph is about the most boring description of sex I've heard.  For good examples of a sex scene without any graphics, I refer you to Mary's Glamourist Histories.  Also her April Fool's novellette, though that one is a bit more racy.

pg 1: "guests are called to attend the goddess' rising"
--been looking forward to this!

pg 1: "No, like that is fine."
--word missing?

pg 1: "left her slip and corset on "
--how did she breathe?  Or move...

pg 1: "Lasila wanted to sing"
--Eh?  Why?  I haven't seen any other sign of Lasila wanting to sing previously

pg 2: "Moonlight caught on her hands, staining one red, the other white"
--Why?  Stained glass?

pg 2: "As unlike the old goddess as could be"
--how?  I don't remember a description of the old goddess.

pg 3: "This, Lasila realized, was not on the script"
--A little confusion.  Is there a script for birthing a goddess?  I would imagine each one would have their own personality and wants.

pg 3: "steal my sister's show"
--there's another goddess?

pg 3: "extending a hand up to the now-masked figure...His wings were as full as hers"
--confused again.  The goddess was talking about her sister, and now there's another god?  A brother?

pg 4: "how much as been lost "
--has

pg 4: "And the god stepped back and knelt down exactly as the other guests;"
--Now that things seem to be going back to normal, I'm going to take a moment to make an aside.  I'm confused.  The whole scene is very beautiful, and I know it's supposed to be confusing to the characters, and we don't necessarily know who the new god is, but I'm also confused about how the whole god/goddess thing works.  Might be some WRS, but I can't remember what benefit exactly the goddess gives to the community (and there are sister goddesses, maybe?). I feel like there may have been some explanation for this near the beginning, but with all that's happened, even reading straight through, I feel a little bit of a reminder might be in order.

pg 4: "running behind schedule"
--this is partly why I'm confused.  There's a schedule.  These people have done this enough to know the order and what happens next.  But I don't have any clue, and so I
feel like I've missed something.

pg 5, bottom:  This section is much more sensual that the actual sex scene at the beginning.

pg 6: "Not that she minded right;"
--missing word?

Honestly, I almost skimmed the last couple pages with all the goodbyes.  After the tension of a goddess (and god) being born, it doesn't really stand up.  Also, everyone
just leaves after?  I would assume there would be more partying after the goddess is born.
 

Edited August 3, 2016 by Mandamon

[neongrey]

5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

 There is a lot of setup at the beginning, but rather than being setup on worldbuilding or plot, it's all about Lasila doing mundane things.

Hmmmm. In fact, the early stuff is pretty thick with plot. Right now there's a lot of balls in the air. Some of it I want to go under the radar, but not all of it. Is it simply because of the framing that it's getting written off as non-pertinent?

10 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 1:  uh...sorry to say, but the first paragraph is about the most boring description of sex I've heard.  For good examples of a sex scene without any graphics, I refer you to Mary's Glamourist Histories.  Also her April Fool's novellette, though that one is a bit more racy.

FWIW, it's very much not a sex scene (among other things, both participants are presently of an age where, while I'm fine with presenting this as having occurred, I'm less okay with actually going through such a scene as yet; the exact conversions [or any conversions, really] aren't particularly pertinent to the story, but shaving a year off an aelin age will uuusually put that into 'human years', so given this is an equivalent of sixteen-year-olds, actually portraying this is a bit dicey), so if it's being interpreted as such, I actually need to go the other direction.

10 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 2: "Moonlight caught on her hands, staining one red, the other white"
--Why?  Stained glass?

Savae deals with this more for obvious reasons (and there will have been more done with this in the stuff to be added) but red moonlight is absolutely a thing here.

Otherwise, as always, filing as notes for when I get to revision. Thanks!

 

[Mandamon]

14 minutes ago, neongrey said:

Hmmmm. In fact, the early stuff is pretty thick with plot. Right now there's a lot of balls in the air. Some of it I want to go under the radar, but not all of it. Is it simply because of the framing that it's getting written off as non-pertinent?

Yes, I think that's it.  Maybe it's juxtaposed with the birth of a goddess so it gets lost in the anticipation of the spectacle?

[neongrey]

This'll be quite the pickle to deal with when I get back to it, then (though I appreciate a measure of irony in her not being seen as protaging until she's being directly acted upon by others). We'll see how it goes going forward, so we can see just how deeply-set some of this is. We're getting soon into stuff that I've had early feedback for before writing, so from there too we'll see how it looks.

Edited August 4, 2016 by neongrey

[rdpulfer]

- "And that little enchantment to her dress was just what she needed." This felt a little out of place. It made me a little confused with regards to the rest of the passage. (Could be Weekly Reader Syndrome.)

- The birth of the goddess is really intriguing. I like the effect the god's speaking has on the people in the room.

- Very curious where this is going, especially with the identity of the brother god. I really want to see more now!  

 

[Robinski]

Some comments below. Overall, there was some interesting stuff in there. The most effective moment, for me, was the god whispering in Lasila’s ear, I thought that was effect. I enjoyed the aftermath of the liaison between Lasila and Irahi. It felt hurried, and I wanted more interaction between them at that point, but being robbed of it by the attendant felt right, consistent with the situation.

Much of the rest of the chapter, I felt, dragged. I found the ceremony itself unclear, which was distracting as I tried to visualise what was happening. Nothing that an editing pass or two could not fix, of course.

I'm still interested in the story. I wonder what inspiration Lasila will take from the god’s words, and how her employment opportunity through Iluya will develop.

<R>

---------------------------------------------

“They weren't exactly inviting in a crowd” – I really dislike seeing what I think are modern idioms in ‘period’ fiction. It’s a kind of glib, conversational form that I don’t think sits well with the tone of the story.

“I must ask you to finish whatever you are about and join the others in the atrium” – This jarred for me, seeming to go beyond the mark of what I take to be quite strict class etiquette would permit an attendant to say to two guests.

“They'd left her slip and corset on to make things easier getting dressed again” – How very... practical. Joking aside, this actually underlines the somewhat detached tone to the liaison.

“By the time all was said and done,” – I don’t mind the omission of ‘gory details’, but this for me is too detached. No emotional cues at all.

“He shrugged his shirt back on with relative ease” – This seems overstated to me. He’s putting on a shirt, not wrestling a lion. Even if he does have wings, he’s been putting shirts on all his life, presumably, so he must be adept at it by now.

“Lasila reached up to smoothe out Irahi's hair” – smooth. This is the second instance and there’s another one coming. I know you don’t like lbl’s, but three’s a crowd :o)

“Their robes glittered in the faint light, stabbing at her eyes.” – There’s seems to be confusion over the level of light. I don’t believe that dim light can stab at anyone’s eyes.

“a voice did raise rise up in song” – slay me if you like ;op

I felt a fairly significant disconnect when the god appeared. I didn’t really understand the mechanics of that. Did the blinding effect of the light mask his arrival? He just seemed to be there, but without a clear statement of Lasila’s realisation that another deity was present. Hard to put my finger on, just something of a disconnect.

I thought her face-to-face with the god was effective, the appearance of her father’s face adding an ethereal quality.

The parting of Lasila and Irahi feels protracted, a word, a touch, another word, another touch. It left me feeling awkwardness more than anything else.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Robinski

[Robinski]

On 01/08/2016 at 11:35 PM, kaisa said:

For instance, Buffy Summers

Sorry, but after NG's remarks about Joss Whedon in her comments on my last submission, I had to guffaw loudly at your invocation of Buffy @kaisa

Edited August 7, 2016 by Robinski
it's raining

[Robinski]

On 03/08/2016 at 2:39 PM, Mandamon said:

I'm just bored by her sitting around.

Haha - my best friend (and best man) and I sat around for about 10 years role playing 1 year of a PC's life in one of my RPG cities. The minutiae, oh god the minutiae - it was wonderful. His character was one of the most passive people I have ever 'met' - the hoops I had to GM through to get her moving were ridiculous - horribly contrived, and yet we had loads of fun. I think we rolled dice about 20 times a year. It was very much a character- and story-based exercise. I have 743 pages of written notes that will one day become a novel, but don't hold your breath.

My point being, you'll get no complaints from me on pacing, @neongrey as long as something vaguely interesting is happening and Lasila is involved, even if only reacting.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Robinski
it's still raining

[neongrey]

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

and how her employment opportunity through Iluya will develop

We're actually going to see this much sooner now, heh.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

I really dislike seeing what I think are modern idioms in ‘period’ fiction

In fact by absolutely no definition of the term, even stretched, is this at all a period piece.  That said, if it's out of tone with the surrounds, it's out of tone.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

Joking aside, this actually underlines the somewhat detached tone to the liaison.

Total detachment here was certainly the intent (the age thing), though it won't be when we come back to it.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

smooth. This is the second instance and there’s another one coming. I know you don’t like lbl’s, but three’s a crowd :o)

No, smoothe is the verb, smooth is the adjective.

I don't have a problem with lbls at all; ABCD format applied to anything more narrow than a broad-strokes overview is what doesn't give me anything personally useful for a lengthy host of reasons, lol.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

Sorry, but after NG's remarks about Joss Whedon in her comments on my last submission, I had to guffaw loudly at your invocation of Buffy

One simply must take these things in the spirit in which they were intended...

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

My point being, you'll get no complaints from me on pacing, @neongrey as long as something vaguely interesting is happening and Lasila is involved, even if only reacting.

Ultimately though, if she's being read as passive when it's modestly important that she not be, that's an issue. We'll see how this goes once it's been through the meat grinder.

Thanks!

[kais]

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

NG's remarks about Joss Whedon in her comments on my last submission

I totally missed this! *goes to dig*

[Robinski]

1 hour ago, neongrey said:

3 hours ago, Robinski said:

smooth. This is the second instance and there’s another one coming. I know you don’t like lbl’s, but three’s a crowd :o)

No, smoothe is the verb, smooth is the adjective.

My actual paper Concise OED disagrees. However, as usual, although the majority of the internet seems to support 'smooth', Wiktionary has 'smoothe' as an archaic spelling of 'smooth'. Probably, I care too much about the details, but I always find myself asking what an editor would do.

1 hour ago, neongrey said:

In fact by absolutely no definition of the term, even stretched, is this at all a period piece.  That said, if it's out of tone with the surrounds, it's out of tone.

I get that - which is why I used the ' ' - if only I'd used the word 'tone', which is what I meant.

1 hour ago, neongrey said:

One simply must take these things in the spirit in which they were intended...

Absolutely.

1 hour ago, neongrey said:

Ultimately though, if she's being read as passive when it's modestly important that she not be, that's an issue.

I didn't mean to suggest that. I think she's active - just not impatient or precipitous.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Robinski
it's stopped raining, but it's nightime now

[neongrey]

4 minutes ago, Robinski said:

My actual paper Concise OED disagrees. However, as usual, although the majority of the internet seems to support 'smooth'. Wiktionary has 'smoothe' as an archaic spelling of 'smooth'. Probably, I care too much about the details, but I always find myself asking what an editor would do.

Yeah, looking it up further you do seem to be correct, which is interesting because I've always seen it as smoothe. Regonalism maybe? idk.

5 minutes ago, Robinski said:

I didn't mean to suggest that. I think she's active - just not impatient or precipitous.

Yeah, she's definitely not impatient-- part of why I think that'll play better with her aged up too. 16/17 is a little young to be really going for the sort of long-game planning she really does.

[Robinski]

9 minutes ago, neongrey said:

you do seem to be correct

There's a first time for everything

13 minutes ago, neongrey said:

I think that'll play better with her aged up too.

Agree.