Popular Post Satsuoni Posted January 10, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) It came to my attention that many people on the forums seem to consider the Highstorms to be a variation of the Earth storms, perhaps grander in scale, but operating under the same principles. Now, I cannot claim to understand the weather system well, and I have lived for the last 6 years in Tokyo, where I have been blessed by the mild weather for the duration. It seems to me, however, that a majority of the extreme weather system on Earth are of rotary nature (cyclones, hurricanes), that also go from regions of high pressure towards lower.I think that is incompatible with the descriptions of Highstorms that we have in WoK, considering the points below:(hidden for clarity) The stormwall is driven before the storm, measuring "hundreds of feet in height" of solid water, rocks and debris. It's pressure is outwards, it has no detectable angular momentum that would be present in a tornado wall, especially of that size and ferocity. Neither does the air immediately following it, it exhibits normal random turbulence. If we assume that the stormwall travels tangent to rotating air, that would place the origin of the storms to the side, and would make the storm propagate sideways to its wall. Futher, it would make continent-wide stormwalls nearly impossible. Highstorms drive a wave of high pressure before them, rather than being a wind flowing from regions of high pressure. These properties, to me at least, seem to indicate a detonation or deflagration wave. Such waves are, however, driven by a layer of reaction that supplies energy to the front before it. In my opinion, such energy could be supplied, in this case, by the coupling between physical and spiritual realms. Therefore, my opinion is that the Highstorms form as follows: (hidden for clarity) At the Origin some event releases a large amount of Spiritual energy, which form a shockwave in the Spiritual realm. A shockwave travels without much attenuation, or perhaps with linear attenuation (per the length of the wave, rather than the area). The large amount of the Spiritual energy present affects the physical world in some way (a pity we don't have data from Shadesmar during a highstorm!). For now, I assume simple energy transfer, forcing the air/water molecules to move in the direction of the wave, though other explanations are possible. The pressure also creates other effects, such as the area of calm that Kaladin experienced - presumable the area where the realms more or less "merge". The Spiritual pressure rips open the gates in the gems (which I personally assume to be equivalent to Scadrial metal), and bleeds pure Investiture into them, before the gates are closed shut from the pressure drop in Spiritual and increase in Physical. The energy bleeding into physical realm drives the physical wave of matter, including water, partially drawn from sea and/or underground reservoirs that Roshar is almost sure to have. The water drawn under high pressure from underground becomes enriched in minerals, that start to precipitate as the pressure normalizes (crem) But obviously, my opinion is worthless without some data to back it up. Therefore I invested some time to create a relatively simple simulation system to show what it would look like. I am not perfectly satisfied with the results, but Kurkistan has assured me that they would be of interest to some people. So, without further ado: Also, a video file, for those who would want to see the simulation results in motion. The details of the simulations, for those interested: Being lazy, I have forgotten the basics of the hydrodynamics. Therefore, I have used the Integer Lattice Gas Automata for simulation. Water (blue) particles are of mass 2, and are affected by gravity, mutual repulsion in a single node and attraction to water in neighboring nodes to simulate surface tension. Air (represented in red) are weightless particles of mass 1. Walls and solid objects are bounceback. They weakly attract water to simulate wetting. The grid is rectangular. 25 velocities (5x5 square) are used. The code is slow and clunky, using OpenCL on my phenom 2 CPU. It gives about 1 picture per second, at 1600x256 resolution or so. Now, it is obvious that the model and the simulation are not perfect, therefore I would like some help, if that is possible. In particular: Could somebody with better artistic abilities than me draw a better slice of Roshar for simulation? The program load the data from a bmp file, with colors roughly representing density of corresponding matter, R channel for air, B for water, G for wall (binary for now) Suggestions for better coupling than simply "drive matter sideways"? Any general notes or suggestions? Edited January 10, 2014 by Satsuoni 39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) Permit me to be the first to say three things: First of all: Woah! Good job! I do not want to be on the ocean during a Highstorm. Edited January 10, 2014 by Aether 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted January 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Thank you! I should note, however, that in normal conditions the sea behind the Highstorm should start to calm down after a while. Since the simulation is in what is, essentially, a box, the energy doesn't have anywhere to go, though, 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 It still serves as a nice visual and conceptual aid. And while I am not confident that I ever really had the impression that Highstorms are just high-powered versions of our Hurricanes, you've pretty much convinced me that that is not the case. Rereading the descriptions from the book, it does sound more like a detonation wave (or something similar). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 So high storms are actually the dispersing of weekly magical explosions on the other side of the planet with enough energy to outdo Hiroshima by several factors of magnitude? Somehow, that's even more awesome than the continent-sweeping hurricanes I assumed they were. Also, if the storm wall is in fact driven by a magical shockwave, then, unless it only propagates in one direction, shouldn't there be another continent with some serious mountains between Panroshea and the Origin, to the west? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 It's mentioned in the book that the Storms are substantially weaker by the time they reach the West end of the Continent. If the planet is big enough, the shock-wave going the other way might have dissipated long before it reaches around the globe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I guess that's true. Still, there's probably something there, or the locals would have noticed a strong breeze every so often, maybe. Ir maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted January 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Indeed, even with linear dispersion that is a long way. Also, the two opposing waves would meet about midway. They might cancel each other (at least on the physical side, and though the energy would remain, it should be much more dispersed), since they have opposite momenta, though that would imply that Roshar continent doesn't span over half the circumference of a planet... I am not sure if it does or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) *Jaw drop* Friend Satsuoni you are anything but "lazy" that are awesome. After read your post of "Moving Spiritual Wall Theory" i kind got a question. If so much water mass are being moved why Tsunamis aren't formed when the stormwall hit Roshar? If there are a constant linear push, like in your model, the ocean water would be pushed to the coast too don't ? Anyway take this upvotes Smart Sir =) Edited January 10, 2014 by Natans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted January 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 *Jaw drop* Friend Satsuoni you are anything but "lazy" that are awesome. After read your post and of "Moving Spiritual Wall Theory" i kind got a question. If so much water mass are being moved why Tsunamis aren't formed when the stormwall hit Roshar? If there are a contant linear push, like in your model, the ocean water would be pushed to the coast too don't ? Anyway take this upvotes Smart Sir =) You are correct in that (and if you look at the video, you'd note that it does push a lot of water on the shore, enough to drown the lower part). There are two things that may explain it, in part: We don't really know what the Highstorm looks like on the shore that points towards origin (New Natanan?), and most of Roshar seems to be shielded by the mountains on that side. The model is approximate, since I am not sure in what form the energy bleeds over from Spiritual. The area of transferred momentum is just one of possibilities for simple modeling. If you are interested, here is one of the earlier videos where it is modeled by a semi-transparent moving wall (and the water surface tension is much lower so it tends to evaporate ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I like the (paraphrased) idea of a region of the Spiritual Realm moving along with the highstorms, "opening" gems as it touches them, filling them as it passes through, and "closing" them as it leaves them behind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 A very interesting post. Highstorms do seem more like giant explosions than hurricanes, now that I think on it, and you've made your case very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kier Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 This is awesome. I very much agree and wouldn't be surprised that the Highstorms affect more than just the physical and your Idea of them actually originating from the Spiritual realm is really well prestened, and makes alot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I love it! It seems to fit with the Purelake subsiding and the whirlpool where the Wandersail went. The whirlpool could feed deeper currents that bring the water back towards the Origin. I'm not saying the physics works, but poetically it sort of makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 You are correct in that (and if you look at the video, you'd note that it does push a lot of water on the shore, enough to drown the lower part). There are two things that may explain it, in part: We don't really know what the Highstorm looks like on the shore that points towards origin (New Natanan?), and most of Roshar seems to be shielded by the mountains on that side. The model is approximate, since I am not sure in what form the energy bleeds over from Spiritual. The area of transferred momentum is just one of possibilities for simple modeling. If you are interested, here is one of the earlier videos where it is modeled by a semi-transparent moving wall (and the water surface tension is much lower so it tends to evaporate ). I see the video and understand the limitation of the experiment, but in true I liked your model so much that a i kinding try to find a explanation why we don't have heard about tsunamis when that should be expected because your idea of a "Moving Spiritual Wall" point to existence of it. So it's possible that Roshar coast topology prevente big waves to enter in the continent or we simplely didn't heard about the tsunamis yet. If later we find of existence of any of this scenarios I will be be really impressed =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted January 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) This is awesome. I very much agree and wouldn't be surprised that the Highstorms affect more than just the physical and your Idea of them actually originating from the Spiritual realm is really well prestened, and makes alot of sense. Thank you! I was mostly drawing this idea from the following passage: Kaladin blinked. All was still. The storm was quiet, and everything was purely dark. I’m dead, he thought immediately. But why could he feel the wet stone roof beneath him? He shook his head, dripping rainwater down his face. There was no lightning, no wind, no rain. The silence was unnatural. That is just before the sphere recharges, and the face appears. It just seemed to me that that place/time was outside normal physical realm - Kaladin didn't even feel his wounds. I see the video and understand the limitation of the experiment, but in true I liked your model so much that a i kinding try to find a explanation why we don't have heard about tsunamis when that should be expected because your idea of a "Moving Spiritual Wall" point to existence of it. So it's possible that Roshar coast topology prevente big waves to enter in the continent or we simplely didn't heard about the tsunamis yet. If later we find of existence of any of this scenarios I will be be really impressed =) Another thing just occurred to me: if a large part of the water is dragged off to be dispersed over mountains/rest of Roshar, it might not be like a tsunami per se, but like an extended stormwall, and flooded rivers.channels the following day. But I just don't have enough information to speculate with much probability (New Natanan is only mentioned only, and apparently doesn't have many known ways leading to it, and that seems to be the only settlement on that side that is marked on the map) Edit: apparently there is also a Dawn's shadow. Edited January 10, 2014 by Satsuoni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Perhaps highstorm-flooding makes up for the lack of a single large moon, taking the role that tides have on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoibheann Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Wow! Now I want to kidnap my husband and force him to make a 3D model of the maps for the purposes of providing cross-sections... That may take a while since his teaching semester starts tonight. I will talk to him about it. (I haven't convinced him to read the books... I did convince him to go to Writing Excuses at GenCon - He went for Howard though, not Brandon.) For modeling purposes, would 3D be useful? or are we really only looking at the 2D cross-sections and .bmp files? (I'm confident in my abilities to contribute here.) What is the maximum size (pixels) of the .bmp file? I'd love to see what would happen if we tried to model a line across the Shattered Plains, through the Pure-Lake toward Shinovar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted January 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Thank you! A 3d model would be too complicated, sorry. For one thing, it would be to slow, since primitive models like this (atomic level) need a large resolution to be useful. The program takes a bmp file as input, for simplicity. It determines resolution and initial distribution of air/ water. Actually, that basin to the left of landmass is my attempt to make pure lake A slice/ silouette with aquifer would be very nice Edit : A maximum size is limited by PC memory, so, about 4 millions of pixels/ cells. Less if I ever get to implementing erosion. Edited January 14, 2014 by Satsuoni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonko the Sane Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I know how annoying "I told you so" can be, so I apologize for this, but it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. Sorry. I just wanted to bring up that I had this idea three years ago. No one agreed with me. Of course, I didn't move heaven and earth like Satsuoni to scientifically prove that I was right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I know how annoying "I told you so" can be, so I apologize for this, but it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. Sorry. I just wanted to bring up that I had this idea three years ago. No one agreed with me. Of course, I didn't move heaven and earth like Satsuoni to scientifically prove that I was right. Ah yes. I think that is one of the threads I was referring to when I said "It came to my attention that many people on the forums seem to consider the Highstorms to be a variation of the Earth storms, perhaps grander in scale, but operating under the same principles." I've thought of it as a detonation wave from the beginning, so I did agree with your post then. But without a proof, I never bothered posting Somebody must have posted something about them recently, when I had more free time to devote to the modeling problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironeyes Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Somebody get Satsu a Cray supercomputer. Now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbug Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Sheez. First thought after I saw this was, "dang. In WoR, they already start on a boat. If Jasnah and Shallan weren't Surgebinders, they would be screwed". It doesn't matter that they don't sail during highstorms. I can't imagine building a port to weather that. Wow, Satsuoni. Amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Somebody get Satsu a Cray supercomputer. Now. We have Tsubame somewhere around here... If I were still a student, I think I could apply for its usage, actually Sheez. First thought after I saw this was, "dang. In WoR, they already start on a boat. If Jasnah and Shallan weren't Surgebinders, they would be screwed". It doesn't matter that they don't sail during highstorms. I can't imagine building a port to weather that. Wow, Satsuoni. Amazing. Yes, I think actual Highstorms are somewhat weaker, though the same fundamentally. Otherwise there wouldn't *be* New Natanan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironeyes Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 We have Tsubame somewhere around here... If I were still a student, I think I could apply for its usage, actually AWESOME!! Maybe I'll move to Japan for college just for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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