yankorro - 5 Nov 2013 - Manticore Rose 1st chapter

[yankorro]

Hi all,

 

First of all, my thanks go out to everyone who read and gave feedback on the first part. Very helpful.

 

Hopefully you all won't be too busy with NaNoWriMo (or whatever commitments you might have) and you can have a look at this next bit.

 

Ah, and one thing I forgot to include in the email I just sent out:

 

In case you missed the first installment, basically a woman named Rose tells her life story to a stranger on a train. Suffice it to say she's had a hard (yet interesting) life. She's on a search for the Manticore which once read lives in the mountains of southern New Mexico. She gets off the train in Angeltown, which is where this chapter starts.

 

As I said in the email, let me know: stuff you thought was cool, boring or confusing parts, bits where suspension of disbelief is being strained, and whether the info-dump part is too transparently info-dumpy.

 

Thanks in advance

~NMW

 

 

 

 

[Mandamon]

pg 6: She's carrying a syringe in her pocket?  I assume it has some sort of cap?

 

pg 7: going to Dante's and then leaving doesn't seem to accomplish anything.  I understand how Prince explains it, but narrative-wise, it doesn't make a lot of sense, and I would have to file this under a boring part, because now I feel like the last couple pages were wasted.

 

pg 8:  If I heard a woman scream in the next room of a hotel, my first instinct would not be to knock on the door, especially if it wasn't answered the first time.  Also especially if the screaming stopped after a while.

I'll qualify this with; you don't say what sort of screaming it was.  Frightened? Scared? In pain? Having a good time?  If it was a blood-curdling scream like she was being murdered, then it's more likely I'd at least alert the front desk, even if I wasn't going to barge in on a potential murderer (being a young woman of some sort).

 

Chapters:

There's no real rhyme or reason to chapters.  In fact, W.E. just had an episode dealing with it: 8.41.

I think of them more as start to end of a mini-story in the larger story.  If this is how long it takes to get there, go for it.

 

Info-dump:

I noted it, but wasn't annoyed by it.  I think it worked well for establishing some context.  That said, it's always better to do it piecemeal and include more in the way of description.  You did well to paint a picture of the western town, but if you could include other details taken from the history--maybe a half-torn poster of General Pombo, or something like that--it would reduce the amount of info-dump you need to do.

 

World Building:

You also speak of fantastic creatures, but none are in evidence in the town.  A Manticore exists somewhere, but they still use horses.  Are they still what we would consider horses?  I'm thinking of the Fallout universe, where two-headed brahmin cows are the norm, instead of the exception.

[Two McMillion]

I was not initially drawn into the story as I read it. Perhaps it would have been different if I had read the intro, but as it stands it was mostly plodding through. I was, however, caught off guard by the mention of nuclear war near the end. Up until that point, I assumed I was reading an alternate history. The revelation that nuclear war is a thing made the idea of an oil crunch make much more sense. So by the end, I was indeed being drawn in by what I thought was a twist.

 

That said, I feel like the trip to get to that payoff could have been a little better, for example tightening up the Dante portion. I'm also not particularly intrigued by either the world or the characters at this point; there hasn't been a real moment when I connected with them. You mention a manticore but show no evidence the world is particularly odd otherwise. Without evidence of other unusual things that happen, the manticore feels out of place.

 

I think this story could be improved by making the town and world a little more different than ours, with some extra hint that the fantastic is factual here. And maybe some action here in the first chapter.

 

Were this the beginning of a book I picked up off a shelf, I would have been intrigued enough by the nuclear war revelation to read a little further, but you would need to quickly grab my attention and show me I should keep reading.

[yankorro]

Wow, y'all are quick!!!

 

Mandamon, you have a preternatural talent for sniffing out the autobiographically-inspired episodes that I stick into my stories when I'm not sure where else to go, and then pointing out that they don't serve any real purpose in the narrative I seem to recall a similar incident with my last story. Guess I'll be hacking that apart come revision time...

 

Maybe by cutting that out...the 'plodding' sensation that Two MIllions mentions would be lessened and the twist that he (she?) refers to would come a little earlier to draw the reader in.

 

Thanks a lot for your candid first impressions, very helpful!!!

~NMW 

[Mandamon]

Mandamon, you have a preternatural talent for sniffing out the autobiographically-inspired episodes that I stick into my stories when I'm not sure where else to go, and then pointing out that they don't serve any real purpose in the narrative I seem to recall a similar incident with my last story. Guess I'll be hacking that apart come revision time...

I guess either "you're welcome" or  "I'm sorry" depending on how you want to take it.

I was also reminded of that other interlude while reading.  I think it does tie in with what Two McMillion said about the pace.  I'm struggling with the same thing in my writing.  You don't have to cover every minute.  If nothing happens for an hour, or a day, or even a week, just say so, and get to the next plot point.  You can always come back later and fill in if you do think of something cool that happens in between.

[jParker]

Cool: Definitely like the setting. Seems like it'll be a fresh take on post-apocalyptic America. Bonus: No YA drama.

 

Questionably Plausible: Rose's mental illness. Given that it's a relatively tight viewpoint, I would expect her illness to seep through more, as effective medications would be minimally available (manufacturing would cease, creating an ever-diminishing fixed supply). I'm not sure what she's got, but if memory serves and it's schizophrenia, that could be incredible story-wise, given an alternate viewpoint for contrast.

 

Also, Tia Amaro's vocabulary. She probably wouldn't need an extensive lexicon in prison and words like azure would fade from disuse. Probably. I don't have near the qualifications to make that statement with certainty.

 

Furthermore, I feel let down by Rose's interaction with her neighbors. I'm not sure what should happen, but *something* should.

 

Info-dump is obviously an info-dump, but it's not even close to Tolkien, so you get a pass.

 

Personal Quibbles:

Granted, my dialectic Spanish isn't exactly superb, but I believe Prince would say, "No tienes (or tiene) miedo" when entering Dante's. Of course, if there's a linguistic reason to use an awkward prepositional phrase, I'll cede the point.

 

All told, significantly better than the intro. I'm definitely signed up for the long haul.

 

 

P.S. Totally no intersect with my story, so we're cool.

[yankorro]

Thanks, jParker. Glad we're not stepping on each other's toes story-wise

 

Couple things that I will respond to here if for no other reason than to help me get my head around stuff.

 

Re mental illness: I guess I should go back at take a hard look at whatever clues I'm giving in the intro that Rose is crazy. My intention was that she doesn't actually start out clinically insane. May have to dial that back to 'eccentric' somehow.

 

'Azure': that bit was supposed to be from her notes, not the aunt's letter. Again, maybe not clear enough.

 

The 'neighbors': Yeah, needs a little spice. I think I have an idea, though...

 

Info-dump: Yeah, I figured as much. Sometimes I feel like it feels better just to get it all out of the way and move on. In fact I often feel like the judicious shoehorning-in of clues and details and so forth can feel just as conspicuous and artificial as one character spouting off an entire paragraph of exposition. But that's just me...

 

And BTW 'sin miedo' is a perfectly common colloquial way of saying 'don't be shy' or 'don't hold back'. The actual command part is understood. Less pushy than giving an actual command ('no tengas miedo'). But since that entire scene is probably getting the hatchet, the question is moot!

[jParker]

Well that is neat. I'll try to incorporate that into my pidgen.

[andyk]

I like the overall tone and setting. As I mentioned regarding the intro, this has a nice weird west vibe to it, and the revelation of its post-apocalyptic nature makes it even more interesting.

 

I found this chapter rather slow. Not much happens, and some of it seems to be irrelevant. The trip to Dante's place in particular, and the long paragraph of detail on stuff she did once she got into the hotel room, seemed to cram in detail without adding to the story.

 

I'd also have liked to get more of an idea of how Rose was reacting to stuff. Given that it's from her PoV, there's really not much showing her thoughts, feelings and state of being. That also meant that I didn't get a strong impression of her character, or care about her as much as I would have liked. She even feels a bit passive, just drifting from place to place following someone she's only just met.

 

I get the impression that there's some really interesting stuff going on in Rose's character, and it'd be cool to see more of that.

[Mysty]

sorry for the late note, I'm just catching up after Nano.

I also thought this was an alternate history. and when the Prince mentioned state's rights and different states suceeding, I thought the divergence from our history came from the civil war. I was personally thrown out of the story to hear a sudden reference to the 20th century and a nuclear war. maybe to make it more natural you could include in your setting things from our era broken down or rusted out, something that would ordinarily be out of place, but isn't since the technology level clearly slid backwards.

the scream in the hotel was unrealicstic. if i'd been woken like that I'd probably pound on the wall and yell back "it's 3am! what in the devil are you doing in there? I'm trying to sleep here!". No way i'd be that polite and subdued.

I'm not sure yet if Rose is a character I'd want to follow for a whole book. I think i liked the man on the train better. Not sure what it is yet, maybe she just has to grow on me.

[Robinski]

I’ve just re-read my comments below before posting (pasting) them and they sound a bit harsh, but please don’t take them that way!! I like the tone of the writing, and the pace/flow, and some of the imagery and description is good, as are the central idea and setting, but there is one problem in particular that will most likely stop me from reading further. I hope that there are constructive comments here that will help. I would love to read the story in a later draft when complete (perhaps in the alpha thread) with what I think is the central issue addressed. It all comes back to Rose – she is so important to the story, and yet we learn almost nothing about her feelings, and see little sign of her emotions at the things that go on around her.

 

I'm reading Hunger Games at the moment, and I feel that there is a very stark contrast between what Suzanne Collins tells us about what Katniss is feeling and thinking and the absence of that insight in relation to Rose.

 

And now the comments, written as I read...

 

Don’t like the word ‘vocation’ there.

 

I had to get a Google translate on ‘pinche cabrona gabacha’ – and I still don’t entirely get ‘gabacha’, I presume it’s Wiktionary’s 4^th option ‘foreigner’. I'm a bit conflicted about using language that most of the audience will have to look up, it certainly adds colour, but it breaks the flow, which otherwise generally good.

 

‘mustache’ > moustache

 

I do like the flow and the pace of it. Including a high proportion of dialogue means that things really skip along quickly, but there are places where the language is a bit too fast and loose, and it pulls me out of the story. Example, I think almost all word repetition is distracting (in the same sentence or paragraph).

 

The man grabbed her by the arm with a rough jerk. Rose looked down at his delicate brown fingers on her arm, then up into his olive-colored eyes. Then the man released his grip on her and smoothed the lapels of his jacket, then cleared his throat with an awkward smile.

 

I didn’t understand what was meant by foundation dug into the ground, until I reached the description of their being able to see feet. A foundation being in the ground (as they all are!) does not mean that the floor is at that lower level, so I think that could be clearer.

 

I do like the repetition of the phrase ‘that sort of thing’, I think that’s effective, raised a smile with me when I cropped up again.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about Prince. He seems rather foppish and annoying, with several affectations, I mean a monocle, really? Rose has decided he’s alright, but I'm still on the fence.

 

There’s a suspicion on info dumping in his account of his aunt’s background, but I think you get away with it because it fits the context as common ground between the two which they would reasonably discuss.

 

Ouch! When you burn the roof of your mouth that stays with you for some time – in my experience  can be the rest of the day, certainly when you eat hot things it will remain irritated and irritable.

 

I like the interplay with the barman, it adds to the solidity of the location, gives a wider view so that it’s not just Rose and Prince facing each other across a table, and brings me closer to liking Prince.

 

I feared more info dump at the foot of Page 3, but it was welcome to know something about why the world was the way it was, so I didn’t resent the delivery of the information. The difficulty I had was that these are staggering events and yet they are blithely rhymed off and almost dismissed, but I'm still reeling trying to imagine those circumstances. I almost want to spend a lot more time hearing about those events, and I'm hoping this story is interesting enough to compete with its recent history.

 

This is good coming from me, but occasionally there’s a bit of dialogue that is over wordy, I think, like... ‘And I read not long ago calling my attention to the face that...’

 

It’s really rude of Prince not to offer Rose a drink until he has had his for several minutes. This is fine if it’s your intention to convey that he is not the gentlemen that he pretends to be.

 

How long were they in the bar? It seems like it must have been hours if night has fallen.

 

‘...such as was common in the old days...’ > such as had been common... I think.

 

Sometimes the dialogue is not very believable. ‘Is this Dante’s house?’ Well of course it is.

 

Rose seems incredibly trusting on arriving at the house of a complete stranger. She knows very little about Prince, and nothing about Dante.

 

Again, I don’t speak Spanish, so I have to look up what ‘sin miedo’ means – actually, I think that ‘sin’ means ‘without’? Google translate tells me fearless, which is obviously the wrong sense, but by this time I'm completely out of the story.

 

I think when someone walks into a room, they notice the size of the room, windows, people in the room or empty, before they would notice a couch or a painting over a couch.

 

There’s something off key about the behaviour of the people in this story. Yasmina is in Dante’s house, but Prince walks in (with Rose) and makes himself comfortable without announcing their presence to her? I find it very hard to believe that. Maybe Prince is weird that way, but when Dante arrives home he is very secretive about something in his own home, almost as if he is asking Prince’s permission to go and talk to his ‘girl’? I'm struggling with this.

 

To me, it feels contrived that Yasmina would blow up at Dante for his infidelity at the very moment when Prince and Rose arrive (unannounced) at their home.

 

Are they walking in the pitch black or is there street lighting? There is very little scene-setting so it is difficult to visualise the surroundings, I appreciate that it’s dark, but I think this narrows the scope of the story, which focuses on details and dialogue. I have very little idea what Rose’s motivations are, why is she pursuing the manticore? Not just for something to do, surely? I think reader needs to know more about Rose to invest in her quest and her character.

 

‘A lean old man with a sunken face stood there with a mop in his hand...’ – stood where? It sounds as if they have gone inside, so I'm a bit dislocated when Prince opens the door to the hotel.

 

No suggestion of a thank you from Rose to Prince, who has just paid for her hotel room. No parting at all. I'm not sure I like Rose very much.

 

‘She found the room and put the key in the door and opened it and went in and shut the door behind her.’ I think this kind of description is unnecessarily mechanical. It doesn’t add anything to the story. Instead, I’d like to know more about how Rose is feeling. She’s been hauled out of town and brought back again by a man she doesn’t know.

 

paisley  > Paisley, it’s a name

 

Again, there is a fair bit of mechanical description of what Rose is doing, but no sense of what she is thinking and feeling, for example as she looks at the pieces of paper that relate to her past and the reason that she has come here. I find it very difficult to feel anything about the character because I don’t know what she is thinking or feeling. I don’t know why she is here, why it’s important to her.

 

‘...and just lay there, looking at the ceiling.’ But what is she thinking and feeling? I can guess that’s she’s annoyed at being disturbed, but she seems to feel nothing at all about what she has just seen, or anything that has happened to her since arriving in the town.

 

The bit about nuclear war seems rather random and shoe-horned in. How can she visualise nuclear war when she doesn’t know what it is?

 

Having read the intros and the first chapter, my feeling at this point is that there is not enough to encourage me to read further into the story. Rose seems the least interesting of the characters that I have encountered so far, because I know nothing about her motivations. The other characters show emotion, reveal feelings and reactions in a way that gives me something to spark my interest, but Rose does not seem to react to anything, and therefore leaves me cold.

 

It’s a pity, because there is some real flare to your writing, I think you have an interesting turn of phrase, but the story has to be all about your main character. I think the reader needs to get under her skin early on and be a party to what she is thinking and feeling. So far, the reader is either being shut out or nothing is happening between her ears, which can’t be true.