Theory - Another Radiant Order Hidden in WOK

[Natans]

I was doing some research and finded this topic in the StormBlessed Forum:

 

"On p 768 (US hardcover), Sigzil states I spread knowledge of cultures, peoples, thoughts, and dreams. I bring peace through understanding. It is the holy charge my order received from the Heralds themselves.

 

As the Radiants are the only groups that I have heard of that have received orders directly from the Heralds, this would make Worldsingers Radiants as well."

 

Now this make sense. To me the Knights Radiants Orders aren't only about fighting, they also should have served like, "Watcher against the Desolations" and have a Order that spreaded information fo sure would help the fight against the voidbringers.

 

This is so true that Nohadon in one of Dalinar's vision said that the the humans allways forgot the danger of the Desolation and for greed them would in-fight, what caused great damage when the desolations arrived. 

 

So the Wolrdsinger primary work between Desolation would help the nations, by mutual understanding, not fight among themselves making easy to them fight together in the desolations

 

This order could use the "travel" surge to help them in this task =)

 

Crackpot Theory?

 

EDIT - Is really hard to me express myself in english, so let me clarify a bit.

 

 

I'm not saying that the Heralds commanded the Radiants or anything. To me they are much more influencied by the "Way of Kings" and the ideals present in the book. Nohadon understood that without preparation the Humankind are in serius danger.

 

And a Order that worked to spread information and/or help the nations to respect which other, sure fit in the concept of "Not warrior Orders" that was aluded in this interview below.

 

Q: Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

A: It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate

 

=)

Edited October 4, 2013 by Natans

[happyman]

Not completely crackpot.  It seems to me that the Knight's Radiant would definitely need a PR crew, for much the same way modern governments have public safely announcements.  My main qualm is whether the people who do the PR have to be Knight's Radiant.  After all, singing and telling stories is something bog-standard humans can do.

[Mysty]

Sigzil's master worldsinger master was Hoid, and the way in which Hoid shared that story with Kaladin was not something any human could do. There was sommething special there. Of course I don't think we don't have enough information to know if Hoid made that story come to life because of a surge from a special PR order of Radiants, or because of that flute he gave kaladin, or if it was just a special bag of tricks Hoid has collected through his world hopping, But I think it is possible. Hopefully in WoR we will learn more about worldsingers as bridge four tests Kaladin's windrunning abilities as Sigzil suggested.

[Gloom]

I don't agree, but I'll give it an upvote because your research brings up an interesting point. The Worldsingers were, or at least believe they were, founded by the Heralds.

 

Some assumptions are being made here that are implied by the reader but aren't strongly implied by the book.

 

We don't know that the Radiants took orders from the Heralds. The Heralds only existed during desolations. The KR had to have had a command structure that was independent of the Heralds or they would fall apart after every desolation when the Heralds returned to the Tranquilline Halls.

 

Prior to Nohadons time Knights Radiant didn't exist. Surgebinders and soulcasters existed, but not Knight Radiants. What we don't know is if those surgebinders and soulcasters carried the arms of Radiants prior to his reign or weather they came as a result of the forming of these orders. We can assume that since the Radiant orders were formed after the desolation, that they were formed without the explicit will of the Heralds.

 

I don't doubt that the Radiants once formed were willing and able to assist the Worldsingers, but we don't have any evidence to support the theory that Worldsingers were Radiants. In fact one could argue that if the Worldsingers were an order formed by the Heralds, then they were unlikely to have been Radiants.

[Shardlet]

Prior to Nohadons time Knights Radiant didn't exist. Surgebinders and soulcasters existed, but not Knight Radiants. We can assume that since the Radiant orders were formed after the desolation, that they were formed without the explicit will of the Heralds.

 

Speaking of assumptions...We do not know that the KR did not exist before Nohadon.  We do not know that the radiant orders were formed after the desolation.

 

The radiants could well have existed before Nohadon (since there is not substantial evidence to strongly tie Nohadon to the radiants at all) and the radiants could have been established by the Heralds in the time approaching a desolation (since we do not know when they are released from damnation relative to the start of a desolation).  Note: Hoid describes Taln's arrival as being late even though the desolation does not seem to have begun in earnest at all (i.e., no appearances of midnight essence or other desolation forerunners) .

[hoser]

Speaking of assumptions...We do not know that the KR did not exist before Nohadon.  We do not know that the radiant orders were formed after the desolation.

 

The radiants could well have existed before Nohadon (since there is not substantial evidence to strongly tie Nohadon to the radiants at all) and the radiants could have been established by the Heralds in the time approaching a desolation (since we do not know when they are released from damnation relative to the start of a desolation). 

Nohadon laments the disunity and civil wars that predated the desolation including one led by a Surgebinder, saying "there are princes, kings,Soulcasters, Surgebinders. We never lack men or women who wish to lead."  He just forgot about the Radiants.  Entire kingdoms were wiped out in that desolation.  He comments that the heralds had been forgotten.  After the Radiants formed, there was a stable group of kingdoms.  He wears the Radiant symbol and wrote their manual while having nothing to do with them. 

 

Interesting theory. 

[Natans]

Nohadon laments the disunity and civil wars that predated the desolation including one led by a Surgebinder, saying "there are princes, kings,Soulcasters, Surgebinders. We never lack men or women who wish to lead."  He just forgot about the Radiants.  Entire kingdoms were wiped out in that desolation.  He comments that the heralds had been forgotten.  After the Radiants formed, there was a stable group of kingdoms.  He wears the Radiant symbol and wrote their manual while having nothing to do with them. 

 

Interesting theory. 

 

 

The Forty Parabolles - The Forty ideals

Teft saying that an old King wrote a book that served was guide line to the radiants.

 

To me Nohadon funded or at least preceded the radiant orders. It's from this that I believe in a order of radiants with the objetive of "keep the flame alive" helping the nations to be prepared for the Desolation.

 

The Windrunner said something about Keeping training the deadly arts to pass them when  was needed.

 

Isn't possible that another order would approach this problem with another solution. ( Help in the unification of the nations and in maintain the peace ?

[Gloom]

"Alakavish was a Surgebinder. he should have known better. And yer, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren."

Ch. 60 TWoK

"I worried that you would find my claims too forward. Your own Surgebinders were... But no, we should not look backward."

Ch. 60 TWoK

"What do you think should be done with these Surgebinders?" Dalinnar asked carefully.

"I don't know if we can force them to do anything." Their footsteps echoed in the empty room. Were there no guards, no attendants? "There power... well, Alakavish proves the allure Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage the,..." The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. "They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we've been given-whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond-needs to make us better."

Ch. 60 TWoK

"They have leaders," Nohadon said. "There are princes, kings, Soulcasters, Surgebinders. We never lack men and women who wish to lead."

Ch. 60 TWoK

 

I'll agree that my word usage was stronger than it should have been. Having just re-read that particular dream sequence again, twice, I have little reason to change my opinion on the matter though. No mention of Knights Radiant have been made at all, while Surgebinders and Soulcasters are mentioned several times.

 

"Bah. It was written by the Lost Radiants!"

"They didn't write it. It was their inspiration. Nahadon, an ordinary man, was its author."

Ch. 18 TWoK

 

This little snippet of information simply confirms that the KR modeled their organization around what Nohadon wrote in his book. It's possible that Nohadon, a king of Alethkar, simply forgot about the KR, or that he hadn't heard of this particular group of Surgebinders and Soulcaster, but I find it unlikely.

 

When the Radiants are spoken of by the Heralds, they don't speak of them possessively. I don't hear Jezrien saying anything about his WindRunners, or Kalak about his Radiants. The Radiants themselves don't give the Heralds any special notice, no bowing, no salutes, no gestures of respect, they just trudge past Kalak without even acknowledging him. Very sloppy of a military organization in regards to its leaders, if that's what they were.

 

No, I'm going to stick with my belief that the Heralds had almost nothing to do with the Knights Radiant, and that their relationship with the Orders varied from desolation to desolation.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Gloom

[Natans]

No, I'm going to stick with my belief that the Heralds had almost nothing to do with the Knights Radiant, and that their relationship with the Orders varied from desolation to desolation.

 

I agree with this. The Radiants fighted the same war, but their origins is much more mundane, alas they aren't bounded by a pact with a god that granted them divine (greatly invested) weapons.

 

Simple men and women guided by the ideals of a wise King and by their desire of resist. (My opinion only)  =)

[WeiryWriter]

I'm really not sure Worldsingers are an order of Radiant.  Hoid was a force in their creation and their is no evidence in him helping to form any Radiant orders.  Also Wordsingers, if I remember correctly, are still an active group while we know the Radiants were disbanded.  Lastly Hoid tells Kaladin to tell Sigzil he passed his apprenticeship and that he is now a Worldsinger.  He doesn't show any abilities that would be extant Worldsingers were Radiants.

 

Spoilers for the Dalinar reading in the Purelake

We know that the Knights Radiant were a "surprise" to Honor, and so very likely to his Heralds. If the Worldsingers did get their mandate from the Heralds this could point to separate origins.

[Gloom]

I didn't intend to tear your theory apart Natans. Unfortunately, as a started looking into it, it led me to a completely different answer than the one you proposed.

 

I'm afraid that I have some additional circumstantial evidence that would further derail this theory.

 

From reading the book, I feel that the evidence suggests that not only did none of the Knight Radiant Orders survive, but that they were purposefully dismissed. Even should such an Order desire to continue, they were despised. They would also have likely been considered a threat to the Theocracy that followed after the Orders were dissolved had they been an active part in their organization.

 

All that being said, I think at least in part I've been convinced that the Worldsingers may very well have been given their charge by the Heralds. I'm actually curious about when this may have occurred.

[Natans]

I didn't intend to tear your theory apart Natans. Unfortunately, as a started looking into it, it led me to a completely different answer than the one you proposed.

 

I'm afraid that I have some additional circumstantial evidence that would further derail this theory.

 

From reading the book, I feel that the evidence suggests that not only did none of the Knight Radiant Orders survive, but that they were purposefully dismissed. Even should such an Order desire to continue, they were despised. They would also have likely been considered a threat to the Theocracy that followed after the Orders were dissolved had they been an active part in their organization.

 

All that being said, I think at least in part I've been convinced that the Worldsingers may very well have been given their charge by the Heralds. I'm actually curious about when this may have occurred.

 

No prob. I'm just throwing ideas here and there, to listen the oppinion of my betters because this sure helps make my mind about things.

 

Just one thing, we don't know for sure that all orders are disbanded. Some radiants could have "keeped" the fight in low profile,after all if they are declared "traitors" they wouldn't go around saying that they are radiant.  

 

In true, I'm very suspicious of the worldsingers(Sigzil), Envisagers (Teft) and from the strange abillity that Rock have to see Sly, somaybe I'm jumping the gun a little bit.

 

But thanks for the feedback.

[Shardlet]

This little snippet of information simply confirms that the KR modeled their organization around what Nohadon wrote in his book. It's possible that Nohadon, a king of Alethkar, simply forgot about the KR, or that he hadn't heard of this particular group of Surgebinders and Soulcaster, but I find it unlikely.

 

That last quote I had forgotten about.  Assuming Dalinar is correct, which I have no reason to doubt, Nohadon did precede the KR.  Thanks Gloom.  Very upvote worthy.