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Dalinar the Surgebinder


Oudeis

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Szeth said his Windrunning wouldn't work if he wore Shardplate, but we've seen Knights Radiant use various powers (The starfalling trick, and what the lady called Regrowth) while wearing Plate, so I'm assuming there are forms of Surgebinding you can do while enPlated.

 

When the Chasmfiend attacked Elhokar, Dalinar caught the falling claw. From Adolin's perspective, it shouldn't have been possible, even in Shardplate. Also, Dalinar's Plate almost seemed to glow.

 

Later (can someone help me find the quote? It comes up either in Adolin's investigation, or when Sadeas makes his announcement) it's revealed that several of the gemstones from Elhokar's armor are cracked. Elhokar admits it wasn't him. The in-world assumption is that bad gems were deliberately placed there in the world's worst assassination attempt.

 

I have an alternate theory.

 

First, I think that from the attitudes of people who hear about the gemstones, they do crack sometimes under the stress of holding up the Plate. I think that if they lack sufficient stormlight to power the armor, they are more likely to crack.

 

So. Envision this scenario, and tell me if it holds water. (To be clear, I'm not saying that 'for sure this happened', and I'm not promising to prove that it the truth, just that nothing from the book disproves it.)

 

Dalinar catches the claw. Whichever Order of KR he is has a power to increase physical strength even more than Plate. Like Kaladin did when he was hurt by the highstorm, he instinctively draws in the stormlight from the closest gems not powering his own armor; Elhokar's gems. His Surgebinding causes his armor to glow slightly.

 

The gems, now drained of power, crack as they try to sustain the strength of Elhokar's armor (I realize he doesn't do anything that seems strenuous after this point, but just walking in Plate requires the strength granted by Plate). Afterwards, it looks to those in-world like they were damaged deliberately, because no one has seen something like what Dalinar did before, like how everyone for a while assumes that Gaz just keeps giving Kaladin dun spheres.

 

And that's it, that's my theory. Maybe I'm not the first to posit it, maybe there's an obvious rebuttal that proves me wrong which I'm not thinking of. Maybe I should stop posting at 1am. WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE ME.

 

Also, I know Dalinar doesn't see any spren, but Jasnah doesn't seem to recognize the truthspren when Shallan shows them to her, so we've proof that you don't have to see your spren to have a Nahel bond.

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Somebody put out a similar idea previously.  But it is still good thinking.  The biggest qualm I have with it at this point is that such a mechanism would make it hazardous for KR to fight near each other.  They would be frequently weakening each others armor.  Now, there are those who have suggested also that the KR didn't need gems to infuse their plate.  I'm not sure about this idea myself.  The evidence is thin and it seems like a major leap in technology to figure out how to rig up the gemstone system with this place that the regular soldiers just got from the KR at the Recreance.  It seems with the infighting over plate and blade that the plate would have likely been severely damaged to the point of at least near uselessness rather quickly.  It would be something like someone gave you a cell phone to use and then the battery went dead, but you had no charger and no idea that there was even another way to charge it.

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I don't know. Shardplate is an invested object. Taking stormlight from inside of an invested object seems unlikely to me.

 

On the other hand, Elhokars Plate was damaged if I recall correctly. This could have increased the chances of it working.

 

I'm not concerned about what would happen when two Knight Radiants fought in close proximity of one another. I believe that a Knight Radiant would have full control of the stormlight within their armor. I also believe that a Knight Radiant uses stormlight much more efficiently and while they may still need gems in their Shardplate, they can probably circulate the stormlight through the plate in ways that a regular Shardbearer can't. By circulating the light through the armor, it would activate the glyphs and the Knight Radiant would claim ownership of that stormlight preventing accidental or intentional theft of their power.

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Later (can someone help me find the quote? It comes up either in Adolin's investigation, or when Sadeas makes his announcement) it's revealed that several of the gemstones from Elhokar's armor are cracked. Elhokar admits it wasn't him. The in-world assumption is that bad gems were deliberately placed there in the world's worst assassination attempt.

 

Sadeas revealed the broken gemstones:

 

“The question drove me to investigate the king’s Shardplate,” Sadeas said. “Eight of the ten sapphires used to infuse his Plate were cracked following the battle.”

TWoK Chapter 54

 

And about the broken gemstones:

 

What of the cracked gemstones in your Shardplate? Did you place those too?” (Sadeas)

“No.” (Elhokar)

TWoK Ch. 69

 

Also, I know Dalinar doesn't see any spren, but Jasnah doesn't seem to recognize the truthspren when Shallan shows them to her, so we've proof that you don't have to see your spren to have a Nahel bond.

 

I think Jasnah indeed knows about the spren Shallan sees:

 

Jasnah frowned, taking the image. “You see beings like this? In Shadesmar?”

“They appear in my drawings,” Shallan said. “They’re around me, Jasnah. You don’t see them? Am I—”

Jasnah held up a hand. “These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.”

TWoK Ch. 72

 

 

Your idea is interesting and I'm with Gloom that Dalinar (like Kaladin in his beginnings) may have done this unwittingly (other than 'real' KR who -- I think -- exactly knew how and when and where to drain Stormlight from. 

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Well, we know that Dalinar is maybe doing glowy (invested) things.  We know that Elhokar sees cryptics in the mirror.  Maybe they both have spren bonds in the early stages and aren't aware of it. 

 

A highly implausible theory would be that their respective spren both decided to help facilitate the transfer of stormlight to save both bondees lives.  To take the speculation to the height of absurdity, we could suggest that Elhokar's cryptic somehow facilitated the transfer through Shadesmar.  This is pure speculation, lacking all evidence, so please be gentle.  

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if the KR know they would channle the stormlight from other KR, they would just carry a small sack of gemstones instead, and avoid the problem.

 

i would need to read the chapter again, to say anything about this.

but it seems reasonable that something else provided strength for the catching of the claw.

or shardplates can realy provide so much strength and toughness.

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Thank you, Meg, for the quotes. I found them in bed last night and was gonna post them, but now there's no need.

 

And I must've misremembered the Jasnah quote; I guess she did recognize them. Slight hole in my theory, but since he doesn't Surgebind a ton, I wonder if the bond might be so stunted that he hasn't yet met his spren.

 

Someone brought up the "KR wouldn't steal stormlight from each other" which is a great point (upvote) I had not thought of, but I agree with the people who have said that it was due to Dalinar's instinctive use; that a trained Radiant would know how to control where he drew stormlight from.

 

Additional information: Also from Chapter 54, Dalinar's devotary is the Order of Talenelat, presumably named after Talenel'Elin, Stonesinew. We know that one Order is called Stoneward, possibly Taln's, the ones associated with topaz and metal. It's not a huge stretch to think that the "Callings" of the devotaries correspond to the spren orders attract; if devout Dalinar is acting however Stoneward Radiants are supposed to act, the name of their order suggests a group capable of increasing their physical strength.

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Szeth is incapable of stealing Stormlight from Shardbearers (until he opens up their Plate), which is a problem for the theory. We know that the KRs were somehow able to get Stormlight through their Plate, though, and Windrunners certainly could Lash themselves while in it. Maybe it's just Szeth who has issues?

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Also, I know Dalinar doesn't see any spren, but Jasnah doesn't seem to recognize the truthspren when Shallan shows them to her, so we've proof that you don't have to see your spren to have a Nahel bond.

 

This makes two assumptions.  Jasnah has a spren bond and Jasnah is bonded to a cryptic.  Neither of these assumptions has a strong evidentiary basis.  So, not proof in my book. 

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This makes two assumptions.  Jasnah has a spren bond and Jasnah is bonded to a cryptic.  Neither of these assumptions has a strong evidentiary basis. 

 

Duh..... wah???? They don't have a strong evidentiary basis? For realz? First, she's an innate soulcaster. She's a Surgebinder. I'll grant you we have Szeth as evidence that there is a way to Surgebind without the Nahel bond, but I still think that while it's less than absolute proof, it's still at least "strong evidence".

 

As for the second, Meg found a quote above which actually refutes a different of my points.

 

Jasnah held up a hand. “These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.”

TWoK Ch. 72

 

So, Jasnah does recognize the cryptics, she names them spren, and she knows enough about them to explain that they are connected to innate soulcasting. In my opinion, that's a strong evidentiary basis. But what do I know, I watch Mythbusters, I think a single point of data is enough to establish a trend, and I've never heard of a control group.

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This is the third thread in three days were I've heard that put forth as an argument. I hadn't noticed before now anyone acting as though the rules of the forum are, "you're not allowed to post anything unless it's proven to be 100% true." It's a theory. I know it's not totally guaranteed, and I'm not trying to "convert" anyone, I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility. I am more than pleased to see people thinking enough about theories to find evidence that might support them, or support opposing theories, but just recently I've noticed a lot of people who seem to expect everyone to keep quiet unless their ideas are beyond reproach.

 

I don't know, maybe it's a matter of missed connotations, I just feel like it's not that hard to show some basic courtesy and say, "While I'm not sold, that's an interesting theory and it's certain very possible, though I have a few thoughts on things that don't quite add up." Instead of just telling me that my "assumptions" don't have a "solid evidentiary basis". That was needlessly confrontational, not to mention false.

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I think Shardlet is only taking issue to your explicit use of the word "proof" here:

 

Also, I know Dalinar doesn't see any spren, but Jasnah doesn't seem to recognize the truthspren when Shallan shows them to her, so we've proof that you don't have to see your spren to have a Nahel bond.

 

He's not saying you can't post your theory unless it's proven, which wouldn't make sense anyway because a proven theory isn't a theory anymore :)

 

e: he's probably trying to prevent this: http://xkcd.com/704/

Edited by Scott
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I think Shardlet is only taking issue to your explicit use of the word "proof" here:

 

He's not saying you can't post your theory unless it's proven, which wouldn't make sense anyway because a proven theory isn't a theory anymore :)

 

Spot on, Scott.  I get very concerned when theories or ideas (plausible and likely though they may be) get presented as fact, confirmed, or proof.  This sort of thing has the tendency of closing people off to new ideas that are plausible or even likely in their own right.  I especially worry about new sharders who may see something described as proven fact when the evidence doesn't rise to the level of proof or confirmation. 

 

Sometimes this comes off as discounting or poopooing peoples ideas.  I apologize that I gave you that impression, Darnam.  I did not mean to come off as saying something must be proven to be posted.  I just have seen a lot of ideas lately being described similarly.  For example, I have a large and detailed alternative Davar/Ghostblood thread that was based on someone declaring something as confirmed that was definitely not. 

Edited by Shardlet
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Veto :) Nitpicking is my job :)

 

Back to topic:

 

 

Dalinar catches the claw. Whichever Order of KR he is has a power to increase physical strength even more than Plate. Like Kaladin did when he was hurt by the highstorm, he instinctively draws in the stormlight from the closest gems not powering his own armor; Elhokar's gems. His Surgebinding causes his armor to glow slightly.

 

As I said above, I like the idea that Dalinar drew in Stormlight unwittingly. And it seems very possible to me that he 'used' Elhokar's gems. I try to show, why, giving some quotes in chronological order:

 

 

 

[Elhokar and Dalinar made a race and climbed a rock formation. Dalinar took the safe way down while leaped down and] landed with an audible crack, throwing up chips of stone and a large puff of Stormlight.

 

...

 

[Elhokar's girth broke and he fell.] The king rolled, ... the armor was cracked on one shoulder, leaking Stormlight.

 

...

 

[Elhokar didn't leave the dangerous area.] Elhokar ... charged toward the monster's chest, his cracked shoulder leaking Stormlight.

 

[Adolin had fallen, too, his armor was cracked.]

 

Dalinar charged toward the king, moving with a speed and grace no man — not even one wearing Shardplate — shoud be able to manage.

 

...

 

Dalinar held back the claw and matched its strength, a figure in dark, silvery metal that almost seemed to glow.

 

Elhokar's (and Adolin's) Shardplates were cracked and leaked Stormlight. So if Dalinar unwittingly drew in Stormlight, he didn't have to do so from gems that were "hidden" and "secured" by Shardplate.

 

In my opinion the idea that Dalinar drew in Stormlight unwittingly seems very likely. And given the circumstances he would never be a danger for another Shardbearer fighting near him.

 

 

---------------------

edit and slightly offtopic:


 

Shardlet:

... I get very concerned when theories or ideas (plausible and likely though they may be) get presented as fact, confirmed, or proof. ...

 

That's good, and I think everybody likes to know when she or he got something wrong. And there are posts in this forums that sound quite good and then it comes to light that they are only speculations or remnants of memories. ...

Perhaps we all should hold in mind that also a good written/worded post — especially when it doesn't have references or quotes to hold the given ideas/speculations/theories — doesn't have to be valid, even if it carries conviction.

 

PS: That was a general thing that itched me and isn't addressed to you, Darnam!

 

Edited by Meg
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There is a possible explanation for some of this.  Maybe Szeth can't draw surgebind in Shardplate because of incompatible investiture.  But the knights could surgebind and wear plate.  So maybe there is "compatible" investiture.  If Elhokar and Dalinar's plate have a "compatible" investiture, maybe Dalinar can draw from Elhokar's gems to save Elhokar's life. 

 

/ducks back into foxhole

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I did not mean to come off as saying something must be proven to be posted. 

 

No, I'm sorry. I clearly over-reacted and I was behaving like a child. I'm sorry for my outburst, and I'll try to eliminate them going forward.

 

You are right, I misunderstood what you were talking about when you said it wasn't proof. Oddly, now that I do know, I still disagree with you, but even more oddly, someone else already showed me a quote proving that I'd read the source material wrong. So, you're right, I do not have proof of the fact in question, but I think for a different reason than the one you said. Unless I'm still misunderstanding.

 

I'm going to bed now.

 

EDIT: Even if you were right, that would make it one plus one plus two plus one, not one plus two plus one plus one.

Edited by Darnam
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I think the point was well made, and apparently someone else does as well. I don't think you came off as childish. We all need to take care when voicing our opinions, as well as how we respond to opinions that we don't agree with. There are times when someone says something in a way that gets a knee jerk reaction from us, and while we try to avoid these moments, sometimes we are a little too forceful or come across a little hostile even if this wasn't our intent. And sometimes, we're just to excited about something to take the proper care that we should.

 

On Topic:

 

I don't believe that, were Elhokar utilizing his Plate as it was intended (ie: the way the KR used the Plate), that this would be possible at all. I don't believe that if the Plate were intact, that stormlight could be drained from it at all (regardless of how it was being used). Because Elhokars Plate was damaged, and because Elhokar was not coherent, I can agree the possibility exists that Dalinar was able to siphon stormlight from Elhokar's armor. I don't think that Szeth is any less capable of drawing stormlight than any Surgebinder, but I think the conditions need to be right for it to happen.

 

Brandon Sanderson

This has to do with the nature of the magics in the cosmere. They interfere with one another. Something that contains a lot of power--we call it investiture--resists the efforts of magic to influence it. A strong spirit can interfere as well.

 

So, I'd theorize that if Elhokar wasn't dazed at the time, any attempt to siphon energy from his Plate would have failed, regardless of the damage to that Plate unless Dalinar was a powerful enough Surgebinder to not only overpower the natural resistance of the Plate as an invested object, but also the natural resistance of Elhokar as the bearer. In this event, we have a perfect storm situation. The Plate was damaged, and Elhokar was recovering from a blow by the Chasmfiend.

 

I'm still not convinced, but I'm agreeable that it is plausible.

Edited by Gloom
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Regarding the the KR's stealing stormlight from other KR's Plate in the vicinity:

 

It's been my understanding that there is a difference between how the KRs Plate were powered and the current Plate. The difference: there are glyphs on the old Plate and they glow. Not a strong difference, I admit, but there seems to be an emphasis on the glow and glyphs. My thought was the Oaths, i.e. the power granted to the individual, coupled with whatever power writing has on things on Roshar, i.e. power invested in the Plate, powered a KRs Plate, but now, not knowing about the Oaths, "modern" Shardbearers must use gemstones to power the armor, but it won't take it near to full strength.

 

Unsubstantiated and not provable at this point, but I think BS has been trying to show a distinct difference between what an honorable man in Plate and a self-interested man in Plate are capable of.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I think people are missing the extremely obvious explanation here - Elhokar himself drained his own gemstones. We know he's seeing Cryptics, after all, and given Shallan's experience with them, they're not ones to explain themselves or give a lecture on the theory of using Investiture, Wyndle-style. I took that scene as a second hint that he's going to be a Surgebinder (the first being his reference to seeing the Cryptics in mirrors). Do I know what he did with that Stormlight? No clue. But it's quite possible he did nothing productive, just held it for a few minutes until it leaked out. 

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