Theory: Classical Scadrial and Worldhopping

[Kadrok]

This theory addresses the way Preservation set up the shard pools (the Well and the Pits) and the way they distribute Lerasium and Atium. My presuppositions are that Atium is the key to Worldhopping and that the Lerasium beads in the Well chamber were generated by the well in a similar fashion to the Atium beads in the pits. I discuss these presuppositions more in this thread.

 

Basically this all came out of my reasoning about how Atium is the key to Worldhopping on Scadrial, so I'm just going to quote myself here. I figured I'd separate this out in case anyone wanted to discuss this idea without taking my other thread off course. Here are some key points:

 

Shadesmar is the Cognitive Realm and Shadesmar is seemingly the way Worldhopping happens. Of the two God metals Atium is the one tied into the Mental and Temporal aspects (with Lerasium offering Physical and Enhancement) and thus it seems to fit with Shadesmar.

• We know of a very clear Temporal effect of Atium: seeing the future. But a mental one is missing. "But wait, Atium also expands the mind!" I hear you say, but as Kurk has pointed our to me recently, ALL Allomancy has the effect of expanding your mind in order to use it. Atium's mind expansion is simply so a Seer can deal with the rush of information given by seeing the possible futures. If Atium's domain is Mental/Temporal, we have only seen the Temporal part, leaving the mental part neatly open for Shadesmar access.
• A random Atium alloy being the key would be narratively clunky (as discussed above)
• In a similar fashion to the above point, Atium being the key to accessing Shadesmar would be narratively neat, because it would balance Atium and Lerasium more. Lerasium is clearly a far more valuable metal as it stands because it makes you the most powerful Allomancer in the world. Atium's future sight is powerful (mostly only in combat) granted, but is far far more limited than Lerasium, and Atium's Hemalurgic prowess (as the master spike), while somewhat more balancing, still doesn't seem to quite even them out, especially if Lerasium can be attuned to allow access to other investitures (jury still out). Giving Atium this function thus not only fits with Atium's allomantic properties, but it increases its worth to more of a "God metal" level.
• To build on the above point, it also involves both Preservation and Ruin. If one of Atium's allomantic properties is allowing Worldhopping/Shadesmar Access, then that would mean the key to Worldhopping on Scadrial requires both Preservation (Allomancy) and Ruin (Atium).

 

And here is the really important bit:

• Note that under normal circumstances there are no Godmetal Mistings. This means that a Mistborn would normally be required for worldhopping. Also note that without Lerasium bleeding into the bloodlines, Mistborn aren't exactly going to crop up. Thus in some sense Lerasium and Atium are both needed for Worldhopping... Lerasium to enable Mistborn (for the next generations) and Atium to power the hopping. This makes for an interesting side theory: What if part of Preservation's set up of the Wells (which I believe generate the Lerasium beads in the same manner as the pits generate Atium, given that both seem to come with some kind of dirt casing... the Pottery and the Geode respectively) was to enable the Scadrian's to worldhop, perhaps to potentially escape or go for help if needed? This certainly seems to fit with how much Atium and Lerasium are generated by the shardpools... you don't nearly need as much Lerasium as Atium for worldhopping to work in the way I describe, and the proportions in which the pools generate their metal reflect this.

 

What do people think? I mean, I know that Leras had his master plan and all, but could this have been a motivating factor for Leras in setting up Classical Scadrial if the original function of the well was to set up a protector of Humanity? Especially considering that accessing other worlds would have given them a perspective on their own world, one which could have potentially undone Ati's history manipulation?

Edited August 26, 2013 by Kadrok

[Claincy]

I do like this theory. It wouldn't surprise me for Leras to have set up something to help Scadrians to worldhop as a backup plan.

 

A couple of things I feel could be mentioned here:

-I could be wrong here but I had a gut feeling that any shard's power could be utilized for worldhopping. If that was the case the reliance on using both preservation And ruin's power doesn't fit as well. Though here I am more suggesting that there is a way to do it without any of ruin's power and a way to do it without using preservations power. That doesn't at all preclude it being doable and likely easier the way you are suggesting, using both.

 

-About the imbalance of Atium and Lerasium: I agree to a point. Lerasium does seem a bit too much more useful than atium, but at the same time I would expect raw power from preservation to be more potent in preservations magic system than raw power from ruin.

[Pechvarry]

A couple of things I feel could be mentioned here:

-I could be wrong here but I had a gut feeling that any shard's power could be utilized for worldhopping. If that was the case the reliance on using both preservation And ruin's power doesn't fit as well. Though here I am more suggesting that there is a way to do it without any of ruin's power and a way to do it without using preservations power. That doesn't at all preclude it being doable and likely easier the way you are suggesting, using both.

While the direct power of a shard most assuredly allows one to step into Shadesmar, the trick here is how to do it as a mortal human. If said human is from Scadrial, he needs some Ruin and some Preservation, as that's how their body is probably set up to filter Investiture into a usable form. So both Shards having a part to play for mere mortals to worldhop without direct intervention seems workable to me.

[Shardlet]

I think what Ffnord meant was that one should be able to access Shadesmar using solely allomancy (i.e., no involvement of Ruin) rather than getting a direct jumpstart from a Shard.  For hemalurgy (i.e., no involvement of preservation), perhaps the right spike in the right place or perhaps any charged spike in the right place will get you to Shadesmar or enact some other form of worldhopping.

[Pechvarry]

"I'ma stab you all the way to Roshar."

[Kadrok]

I could be wrong here but I had a gut feeling that any shard's power could be utilized for worldhopping.

My impression was that every Shardworld had a way of accessing Shadesmar, not necessarily every system of investiture. Given how Preservation and Ruin are so intertwined, I wouldn't be surprised if they had only one way between them... burning Atium (Ruin) with Allomancy (Preservation).

 

Quote time:

 

[’Stormblessed.com Interview with Brandon Sanderson’ said

/>QUESTION

You've said that Shadesmar is the cognitive realm connecting all the worlds in the cosmere, and that Hoid is very good at using Shadesmar. Should we take this to mean Shadesmar is how he travels between the worlds? Do the other worlds have different ways of accessing Shadesmar than the way(s) the people of Roshar use?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=585#8]

 

 

Obviously this quote doesn't say that not every shard's system of investiture has Shadesmar access, so it could be entirely possible that every system has a way of accessing Shadesmar. But Brandon doesn't actually say (in this quote) that every system has a way, merely that every world has a way. This does fit with the awkwardness of imagining how someone would worldhop with certain systems. Who knows, it may be that some systems can't do it and those that can do it, do it with varying degrees of ease (the implication of this is that, while every shardworld can access Shadesmar, that wasn't necessarily a given from the outset). Perhaps part of the problem with Worldhopping on Sel is to do with the Realmatic interactions of Sel's systems of investiture...

 

Does anyone have a stronger quote, perhaps one that outright contradicts this speculation?

 

 

 

EDIT: Let me clarify. I'm not saying that not every Shards power could be used to worldhop, simply that the way the systems of investiture are arranged... that is, the ways the power can be accessed in mortal form... vary, and one of these variances may be that some systems have a way of accessing Shadesmar (or worldhopping via some other means) and some don't. The Shardholder could probably do it, if Shards can worldhop, given they have unrestricted access to the potential manifestations of the power, but for humans those possible manifestations are limited. Preservation can move planets using the power of creation, Allomancers using the mortal manifestation of that same power can only move metals, and only relative to their own position, and only relative to their own weight.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Kadrok

[Abevan]

For me, a big indicator that this might be the case is the fact that the only known worldhopper from Scadrial happens to be an atium misting...

[Shardlet]

And that is an excellent piece of evidence Abevan. +1

[Pechvarry]

Isn't there a different quote than the one Kadrok used? That one says "other worlds can access shadesmar in different ways" which is different from saying "Every other world can access shadesmar."  Afterall, a planet with no magic system probably lacks the means to access Shadesmar.  So it's more than just every source of investiture.  That said, I do think he confirmed in a more clear way that every planet we've seen thus far can access shadesmar, but I could be mistaken.

[Kadrok]

BRAINWAVE!!!

 

 

SPOILERS FOR AoL!!!!

 

The villains of AoL are totally trying to breed a Worldhopper. Let's break this down...

If what I have supposed about Atium is true then this quote takes on new meaning:

 

Douglas

In Alloy of Law, evidence is uncovered that the bad guys are attempting to breed a Mistborn. The time span of the gap between this and the original Mistborn trilogy, perhaps with the interval I vaguely remember being stated for between Alloy and the next main trilogy added, is suspiciously close to 300 years. Does the organization Wax's father is part of know the location of the Pits of Hathsin, or otherwise have access to Atium, either now (as of Alloy) or in the time period of the planned second trilogy?

Brandon Sanderson

You are on the right track

 

 

IF they are trying to breed a Mistborn for the purpose of producing an Atium burner (as this quote suggests), then perhaps they are somehow Cosmere aware and are essentially trying to breed a Worldhopper! And what does this say about Miles's "men of red and gold"?

 

"You are fools! One day, the men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal, will come to you. And you will be ruled by them."

 

Are they the Southerners as some have supposed or some non-Scadrian threat for which they are breeding a Worldhopper to oppose? Is Atium the final metal as I'm sure others have speculated? If that is the case, are the men of Red and Gold in on the Worldhopper breeding program? Gah! I have so many questions now!

Edited September 13, 2013 by Kadrok

[Shardlet]

For spoiler tags, use this handy dandy bit (without the apostrophe in the first tag) :

 

['spoiler]Have a Fantasmagorical day!

 

Which when used looks like this:

 

Have a Fantasmagorical day!

 

Also, for quote boxes, there is a button on the toolbar in the text entry box which looks like a comic strip voice bubble.  Click this button and enter the text you wish into the box.

 

For hyperlinks, the tag I use is (again, without the apostrophe):

 

['url=http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3988-theory-classical-scadrial-and-worldhopping/#entry63291]link to post[/url]

 

Which looks like this :

 

link to post

Edited August 29, 2013 by Shardlet

[Kadrok]

Thankyou kindly...I've updated my post. Now... if we're going to go in this direction, everyone should know that this discussion WILL CONTAIN ALLOY OF LAW SPOILERS.

 

What are your thoughts on my new theory, Shardlet?

[Windrunner]

You know you don't have to use spoiler tags anymore, right? Alloy's been out for nearly two years at this point. We lift any spoilers restrictions we might have imposed at six months.

[Shardlet]

What are your thoughts on my new theory, Shardlet?

 

Well, I was going to look for a quote on this, but I don't have time right now.  It is my understanding that Harmony controls whether atium is released into the pits.  When Kelsier said in TFE that it would be about 300 years until the pits were producing again, it was said without any real understanding of the nature of atium (being the body of Ruin) or any real knowledge of Ruin and Preservation. 

 

However, Wax's uncle could very well have come across that tidbit in stories from the olden days and the exploits of Kelsier.  That being the case, he could have potentially been planning for things with the assumption that atium would begin to be produced again.  I suspect though, that atium would be a significant tool through which they intend to conquer.  But, a full mistborn without atium is still quite potent.  The combination of steel and iron along with pewter is very powerful.  Add duralumin to that mix and you have an extremely dangerous alllomancer (as shown in Vin).

 

As to the men of Red and Gold:  I never really got the impression that Miles was all that invested in the plans of his employers.  He struck me as riding that train as long as it was beneficial for him personally.  I suspect that he would have either eventually taken control (or attempted to) and from there, turn the organization to his own ends or pilage it for its resources.  Or, perhaps robbed the organization of resources and struck out on his own again.  He had a very twisted view of justice at that point and he could easily have decided that things were not leading to 'justice' anymore.  In short, I got the impression that he was using the organization as much as the organization was using him.

[Satsuoni]

About the pits: so far (in AoL) they don't work -as in, the wells were destroyed:

Does the Well of Ascension still exist in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...

Brandon Sanderson (16 October 2008)

The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least.

Of course, how long is "for now" (and even where the pits are now - do people still live on the north pole? That is where the pits were) is up to debate.

Sazed can easily make a new pool, of course, for either metal (probably).

[Scriptorian]

As a side note, I always thought the Set weren't trying to breed a mistborn, but rather create one via Hemalurgy. Now that I think about it, it does seem rather far fetched that they would have any idea how to do that.

[Kadrok]

Well, I was going to look for a quote on this, but I don't have time right now.  It is my understanding that Harmony controls whether atium is released into the pits.  When Kelsier said in TFE that it would be about 300 years until the pits were producing again, it was said without any real understanding of the nature of atium (being the body of Ruin) or any real knowledge of Ruin and Preservation. 

 

However, Wax's uncle could very well have come across that tidbit in stories from the olden days and the exploits of Kelsier.  That being the case, he could have potentially been planning for things with the assumption that atium would begin to be produced again.  I suspect though, that atium would be a significant tool through which they intend to conquer.  But, a full mistborn without atium is still quite potent.  The combination of steel and iron along with pewter is very powerful.  Add duralumin to that mix and you have an extremely dangerous alllomancer (as shown in Vin).

But Brandon does say "You are on the right track" when the asker connects the attempts to breed a Mistborn with the possibility of Atium's return.

 

Interview: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

Douglas

In Alloy of Law, evidence is uncovered that the bad guys are attempting to breed a Mistborn. The time span of the gap between this and the original Mistborn trilogy, perhaps with the interval I vaguely remember being stated for between Alloy and the next main trilogy added, is suspiciously close to 300 years. Does the organization Wax's father is part of know the location of the Pits of Hathsin, or otherwise have access to Atium, either now (as of Alloy) or in the time period of the planned second trilogy?

Brandon Sanderson

You are on the right track

 

 

(Sorry to repost this quote, I really should remove the spoiler box from my previous post so it's more visible.)

 

 

This quote also seems pertinent...

Interview: May, 2010

Ancient 17th Shard Question and Answer (Paraphrased)

Chaos

Does atium have a "side effect", much like how lerasium has a "side effect" in creating Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

 

I knew something about Atium having more than one effect was out there somewhere.

[Shardlet]

That is a good quote.  I have seen that one before.  Since I posited that they could be planning for atium's return and they may have actually discovered the location of the pits, I think that fits in well with what I tossed out.  What remains to be seen is whether atium will indeed return as planned.  There is a quote somewhere that says that Harmony can choose whether or not to release atium into Scadrial.

 

Ah!  Here it is:

 

Quote

ZCHANCE (15 OCTOBER 2008)
I'm surprised no one else has asked but does this new world have atium? If atium was the body of Ruin then it would seem when Sazed took up Ruin's power he would have reabsorbed all of the atium. New atium then would be bits of Sazed's new powers and weaken him with each newly formed bead. It would seem then that if atium exists it would be much rarer, and mean that Sazed would not be able to control this process.

I guess I am trying to understand why he would want to allow any atium to make its way into the hands of people or rather out of his control?

BRANDON SANDERSON (16 OCTOBER 2008)
It's theoretically possible for atium to appear in the future, but right now Sazed has no plans to release any of it to the people. It is, effectively, now something of myth and legend.
Source

 

So, if Sazed has a reason to release atium into the world at a time which corresponds to the Sets plans, then lucky them.  I think it unlikely that Sazed would release it without a purpose for doing so.  And I especially doubt that he would release it to facilitate the Sets plans since they want control not harmony.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Shardlet

[Kadrok]

Yep. I am familiar with that one, and as I think you observed (if you didn't.. have an observation!) they wouldn't necessarily know the Atium isn't coming back without intervention. I wonder what Demoux is running on, as I'm sure others do. Marsh had the Santa sack, did Demoux pick up a supply?

[Vortaan]

I wonder if an atium Misting being around, or anyone who can burn atium, would force Sazed to release atium? If there is a capacity for it's use, does a Shard need to vent some power there to allow for it?

[Kadrok]

Well we know he's getting rid of the extra bit of Ruin somehow (the imbalance between the shards because of Preservation putting more of himself into creating humans), though someone has suggested he used the excess Ruin making Koloss a real species... I don't know. Maybe he's giving the extra Ruin, in Atium form, to Demoux every Christmas.

[Scriptorian]

Maybe he's giving the extra Ruin, in Atium form, to Demoux every Christmas.

 

But, there is no more Lord Santa, so how could there be Christmas? 

[Kadrok]

*Mind-Blown* I had never seen that thread before... my gosh, he's right! The Lord Ruler is Santa!

[Kadrok]

Is burning atium related to Scadrian worldhopping?

(laughter) That’s a good question, the answer is no.

 

Case (and thread) closed...

 

 

 

The "you-were-wrong" spren dance around Kadrok in the form of Kookaburras, guffawing mockingly. 

Edited September 26, 2013 by Kadrok

[duladen]

Late comer to this thread, but I just had a thought... Could Feruchemical aluminum be involved in worldhopping? Perhaps those that can increase their sense of self are better at using Shadesmar.

 

In Shai's discussion of Realmatic Theory in The Emperor's Soul, she says a being's (or object's) Cognitive aspect has to do with how it views itself and how others view it.

 

In Way of Kings, Jasnah warns Shallan that entering Shadesmar without enough stormlight is dangerous. Perhaps, similarly, it is dangerous for a Scadrian to enter the Cognitive Realm without a strong sense of one's self. I don't think that Feruchemical aluminum is the key to world hopping, but I think it makes sense that Aluminum Feruchemy could make someone much more adept at navigating the cosmere. Before seeing the atium idea shot down, I thought it might be cool if an Allomantic atium/Feruchemical aluminum Twinborn would be the best worldhopper.

 

One other thing to point out - the OP says that there aren't Godmetal mistings under normal circumstances. What about all the Seers in HoA?

 

Edit: didn't do the spoiler thing correctly

Edited January 7, 2014 by duladen