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Gaelan

Theory: The Nightwatcher is Cultivation's shardpool

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Well, hello everyone and welcome to my post.

 

I have been thinking for a while about what we know of one of the Roshar's magic systems known as "the old magic". For now, and basing on my faulty memory, what I remember so far is that:

 

-The Nightwatcher uses the old magic to bless and curse at the same time those people who go to ask for something.

 

-It is far on the east respect from Alezkar.

 

-It's in the Valley, which is a concret place, but once in, we don't know if it moves through the territory, or it stands in a concret place.

 

-When using the old magic, it puts something in you via rewriting your spiritweb or changing some physical/cognitive aspect of you.

 

-It's said that the Nightwatcher is a spren. Well, I guess not much humas on Roshar could find a difference between a shardpool and a spren, but what is almost sure is that it isn't human nor voidish.

 

Obviously, we haven't enough information to confirm anything, even including what BS said at the Spokane convention (thanks to those who were there and asked the questions), where he said that the Nightwatcher, the old magic and a shard are all related; but anyways, what has been in my head for a while felt in the right way due to this answer.

 

So, my thoery is that: The Nightwatcher is cultivation's shardpool, or at least is strongely bonded to the shard. The old magic isn't a mystery magic system, it's only the shardholder of Cultivation acting as it's shard demands. It "cultivates" something inside of you, but as every MS has to have a limitation, the cultivation is a double side edge, cursing you at the same time of the blessing. How the curses work respect the blessings and the individual who asks for them, I don't know. It's also unknown why not everyone is able to find it, and I haven't anything consistent about it.

 

Maybe I'm so much wrong or I have missed something important, but this is my theory.

 

Some thoughts about it?

 

P.S: If someone has had the same idea and posted it, I looked for it in the searcher and I didn't find anything.

 

P.S2: Again, sorry for my deficient english.

Edited by Gaelan
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So you are saying you believe The Old Magic isn't a true magic system at all: it's direct shard intervention.  There's a basis for this, but it's from the Mistborn series:

 

Harmony directly changes Spook, and apparently fixed all human handicaps (BS has said Cett walked out of the caverns) to increase their chances of survival on New Scadrial.  This would certainly be direct "divine" intervention, not a feature of some magic system.

 

Also, TLR did something similar in making the Kandra.

 

So, we have seen that shards can change individual mortals, but it doesn't explain the Curse.  I can accept this theory if we can come up with some logic about the Curse.  

 

Perhaps even flaws need cultivated, and that's what the Curse is?

Edited by Pechvarry
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For what we know, Old Magic hasn't been practised with groups, and as you say directly intervention from Shards isn't as strange at all (Endowment is a clear example). I haven't anything to say about the Curse, as you name it. Maybe it's a shardic restriction, or maybe it's part of the Cultivation's shard ideal. No one said it was a possitive-end shard, so that would fit. It remembers so much to the Silence Divine's magic system. Maybe it works in the same way. Hum... does someone have any information?

 

BS magic systems have always have a benefit and a downside, I don't know if, some shards work in the same way.

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In order to cultivate something you have to follow certain steps. Till the soil, plant the seed, water the seed, weed out that which is undesirable, etc.

 

So there is destruction in cultivation. a culling of that which is undesirable.

 

Now take your average supplicant. Most people who go to the Night Watcher are broken in some way. The Night Watcher doesn't break them, it gives them what they want (arguably) in exchange for shaping them into what it needs.

 

Take Dalinar Kholin and the loss of his memories of his wife. Why would these be unproductive to the the goals of the Night watcher? If Dalinar had those memories, he may not have become the man he is. He may have found solace in those memories. He may not have been driven back to Navani. He may not have become as dedicated to the Way of Kings as he has become.

 

I'm pretty certain that Tor has given away a very solid truth about the Night Watcher. It isn't a spren. If it were a spren, it would be listed on this site like all the others.

 

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/04/way-of-kings-spren-catalogue

 

This doesn't prove that the Night Watcher is a shardpool, but I believe it eliminates it from being spren.

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-It's always moving around/standing in the same place, but for some reason we do'nt know yet, not everyone is able to find her or to get to her.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you saying it moves, or not? I think people mostly can't find it because they don't know precisely where it is. The Valley itself has a precise location and does not move, considering that it's marked on the world map.

I'm pretty certain that Tor has given away a very solid truth about the Night Watcher. It isn't a spren. If it were a spren, it would be listed on this site like all the others.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/04/way-of-kings-spren-catalogue

This doesn't prove that the Night Watcher is a shardpool, but I believe it eliminates it from being spren.

I strongly disagree. The Tor.com articles, while fun to read, are not vetted by Brandon or Peter. That guy has no better idea of what the Nightwatcher is than any of the rest of us fans.
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I strongly disagree. The Tor.com articles, while fun to read, are not vetted by Brandon or Peter. That guy has no better idea of what the Nightwatcher is than any of the rest of us fans.

I withdraw exhibit A from evidence your honor. :mellow:

 

The rest of my statement stands.

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Excuse me for my poor exposition windrunner.

 

I wanted to mean that, once on the Valley and without the confirmation of the Nightwatcher beeing a shardpool, we don't know if it is able to move through it or it stands in a concret place. As you said, the Valley is a concret place but not everyone finds her. We can guess so much things about if people knows or doesn't where it is, but the truth is that outside the book we don't. I personally thing that there's something odd around it in case that it doesn't move, if not everyone would be hipothetically able to find it.

 

Tried to explain myself better here. Hope you understand now ;)

 

Gloom, for what I know, there's no need of people beeing broken to find her. Anyways, I agree with the possibility of Cultivation cursing and blessing in specific ways to fit with it's plans. If I'm not wrong, that shard isn't bad seeing the future. 

 

Edit: Will change that point to do it more understandable

Edited by Gaelan
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Now take your average supplicant. Most people who go to the Night Watcher are broken in some way. The Night Watcher doesn't break them, it gives them what they want (arguably) in exchange for shaping them into what it needs.

 

Gloom, for what I know, there's no need of people beeing broken to find her.

 

Agreed. What I was trying to convey was that the Night Watchers reputation may partly be a result of the type of people that sought it out.

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I don't know.  I don't see why the nightwatcher (or the supplicant) would be benefited in any way by the supplecant being changed to see everything upside down.  I could fathom that there may possibly perchance sort-of be a benefit of Dalinar losing his memories of his wife.  But we would need to know more about her and their relationship before we could arrive at such a determination.

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I really wasn't basing on Dalinar. I was more thinking in the way that all the shards we know tend to have their own plans, and to accomplish them by interfering in the world they are bonded to (all but Odium, of course). We have seen Ruin and Preservation fighting in some kind of strategy duel while the first Mistborn trilogy, we have seen much or less the same between Odium and Honor. Of course we haven't any confirmation, but I wouldn't be as surprised at all if Cultivation has it's own great plan (even beeing one of surviving Odium).

 

It isn't neither the first time that a shard uses its shardpool to change the people (Aona's, Slaughters') or to gain power upon others (Ruin).

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Maybe it sounds quite redundant, but a friend of mine mailed Brandon, and I told him to ask about the theory in a very indirect way (He asked if the nightwatcher is able to move through the valley), but he RAFO'ed that and said that we would be able to know about it before the end of the first arc (fifth book I guess).

 

Really, nothing new there. We already know about Dalinar and the Nightwatcher, and Dalinar's book is the fifth one. I hope to remember about this post when we know more about it :P

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I'm not convinced that Shards that aren't suffering Cognitively have Shardpools. We aren't sure which one is in Elantris (although it's probably Devotion), the Well was a specific construct by Preservation, and the Pits don't seem to fit the mold. 

 

I'm also not entirely sure what you mean by each Shard having a grand plan. Endowment doesn't seem to be doing a whole heck of a lot, Cosmere-wise. The other examples you give are all worlds with more than one Shard, and Shards that seem to be, by their Intent, naturally opposed. We know for a fact that Odium is rolling around the Cosmere with a master plan, but I think it's too early to assume the other Shards aren't just trying to take care of people and remain isolated.

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Hum. First of all, and having on count that as much of the people who is there I've read some Brandon's unpubished works, I can definitely say that Shards tend to have their own plan. If we list: Preservation has a plan to counter Ruin, Ruin has a plan to destroy Scadrial, Honor had a plan, Odium has a plan. On the other hand, Endowment doesn't seem to (that's true), and we don't know absolutely anything about Aona and Skai, while Sazed is, in my opinion, too young as Shardholder as for doing much more than just beeing more aware of the Cosmere as the time passes and taking care of his own world. Ah, and Cultivation, that is for me almost as unknown as Domination and Devotion.

 

In addition, in the unpublished works they do too, but I'm not counting them (Of course), since they are unpublished, and they are not canon.

 

So we got 4 that have (plus thus that don't count), 2 that don't seem to, and 3 that we don't know about. And Bavadin, but since he's in an unpublished world, I'm not counting him neither (but he seems to have something with Odium or, at least, against Hoid)

 

That's why I said that they tend to, and not they have all a master plan. 

 

I have to admit, anyways, that you are right when you say that we have only seen shardpools of shards that aren't in a good moment, having cognitive problems. But we don't know how Cultivation is at all.

Edited by Gaelan
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Well that depends on what you mean by "at all". Brandon's confirmed that her Shardholder is still alive. But the again, Leras was technically alive as well.

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I'm confused as to why people seem to think Endowment doesn't have some grand design like the other Shards.  If anything, Endowment seems the MOST prone to meddling and manipulating people and events to his/her end goal.  For centuries, Endowment has been picking specific people to Return to life, seemingly always with a specific purpose judging by what happened with Lightsong (whether or not all of the Returned have fulfilled their specific purpose as intended by Endowment is a whole other matter of course).

 

Given that of all the Shards we've encountered thus far, Endowment seems to be the one most capable when it comes to seeing the future, I'd argue its just playing the long game better than any of the others.  We don't see a specific plan in motion because its the only Shard on Nalthis so there simply weren't enough cosmere aware players or interactions in Warbreaker for us to get any clear view of what's going on with Endowment.  But I really don't think Endowment started bringing people back to life because it cares all that much about the human politics of Nalthis, and whatever its doing will eventually reveal itself to have huge ramifications for the cosmere.

 

Personally, I believe in the end game of the cosmere, Nalthis is going to be a huge player, because of all the Shards thus far, Endowment's the only one who found (or placed) itself on a world where it had no opposition.  While the other Shards are all involved in pitting their power and their champions against each other and interfering in each others' plans, Endowment's off by itself on Nalthis, methodically going about its agenda with no one to get in its way. 

Edited by ROSHtafARian
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'm not convinced that Shards that aren't suffering Cognitively have Shardpools. We aren't sure which one is in Elantris (although it's probably Devotion), the Well was a specific construct by Preservation, and the Pits don't seem to fit the mold.

I do have something to say on that topic. It involves a question that I asked Brandon at SpoCon that has not yet been posted on the forums because I'm not the one with the audio. I'll put it in spoiler tags, if you don't care to read it.

Endowment has been confirmed to have a Shardpool, and s/he has given us quite a bit of evidence that s/he is not Cognitively impaired, but rather meddling quite actively, as ROSHtafARian said.

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Regarding the topic name, I highly doubt that Nightwatcher is a shardpool. The basis is, essentially, the  name only XD. All pools that we have seen so far were, in essence, oozing holes in the ground :) , aka pools, thought the ones in the pits were small. Presumably, people that went and got their boons granted interacted with something, that they called later Nightwatcher. The name presupposes agency  -something that watches - and I have somewhat hard time imagining someone calling a pool, no matter how shiny, a Nightwatcher.

That doesn't preclude the possibility that Nightwatcher is a spren of Cultivation, cultivation incarnate, or somebody who drank from the said pool, but probably not the pool itself. Though I also find the cultivation connection somewhat tenuous - why, then, sit in a valley? Why invert sight, remove sensitivity in arms, etc, etc? Why grant the boon to Tarvangian who apparently is going to lead people straight into Last Desolation with his tactics? (OK, not sure about the last one, but I highly doubt his tactics would prove effective in aiding Honor, and they seem to have generated a fair share of loathing already...)

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I do have something to say on that topic. It involves a question that I asked Brandon at SpoCon that has not yet been posted on the forums because I'm not the one with the audio. I'll put it in spoiler tags, if you don't care to read it.

Endowment has been confirmed to have a Shardpool, and s/he has given us quite a bit of evidence that s/he is not Cognitively impaired, but rather meddling quite actively, as ROSHtafARian said.

 

Hrm. That's interesting, but doesn't invalidate the theory. The Well was a specific creation, after all.

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I didn't claim that it did, that was just in response to your statement that we'd only seen cognitively impaired Shards with Shardpools.

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Until the moment that you put that spoiler ther, I have to admit that the theory was coherent. But if Endowment has a Shardpool too, then it's not hard to figure out that mostly shards may have it. That leads me to a question, by the way: Would Sazeth (Harmony) have one shardpool, or two?

 

Talking about Sazed, I think that he's actually in advantage to everyone else, even Endowment. He's standing alone now, stronger than Odium. I think that the most important world of the 4 known will be Scadrial. And so far, the metallic arts (all of them) is the most universal magic, since it can be used everywhere where there's accesible metals.

 

And back to the nightwatcher, the thing of watching doesn't really mean anything to me, remember that Shards have a different perspective of the phhysic realm. And maybe Cultivation is neutral. Letting alone that we know that it's alive and that is probably the one who talks to Kal in dreams, I insist that nothing is known about this shard or it's holder. Maybe it uses one of the Rosharian's magic systems, then you know, Brandon loves restricting magic. Or maybe is just some kind of balance.

 

And thanks for the info Windrunner!

Edited by Gaelan
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Good point. Regardless I think the Nightwatcher as a shardpool doesn't work

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Oh no, I tend to agree with you as well. I can't find the Cultivation aspect to it, whereas the other Shardpools we've seen can be argued to be following their Shard's intent.

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I do have something to say on that topic. It involves a question that I asked Brandon at SpoCon that has not yet been posted on the forums because I'm not the one with the audio.

 

:blink: .  Hehe...I...uh...well...forgot about going through the questions in between the readings.  Sorry, it will be done in the next couple of days.

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Oh, don't worry too much about that. Those questions would be nice, but you don't have the audio that I was talking about. Eric and I got to ask Brandon some questions after you had left, (wish you could have made it!) and Eric has that stuff right now.

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Where is he? It has been three weeks since SpoCon and barely a peep out of him.  I thought his schedule was opening up?

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