Tattoos as Metalminds

[Kadrok]

I'd be surprised if someone hasn't thought of this before, but what do you guys think about the prospect of someone using tattoos as metalminds?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattoo_ink

This wikipedia article lists the following Allomantic metals as tattoo ink in our world:

 

cadmium (red, orange, yellow)

chromium (green)

aluminium (green, violet)

copper (blue, green)

iron (brown, red, black)

 

Though from the look of it, I'm sure others are possible...

[kroen]

If you take all the metal in a tattoo, even a very large one, it wouldn't amount to much. Which means it wouldn't be able to store much. Still though, it's a very good last resort reserve, not to mention a surprise one. So, for replacing normal metalminds? no. But as an added ace in the sleeve? yes.

[skaa]

cadmium (red, orange, yellow)

chromium (green)

aluminium (green, violet)

copper (blue, green)

iron (brown, red, black)

 

I don't know if the metal contents would be considered pure enough. They might be. I think it's an interesting concept.

[Senor Feesh]

If you take all the metal in a tattoo, even a very large one, it wouldn't amount to much. Which means it wouldn't be able to store much. Still though, it's a very good last resort reserve, not to mention a surprise one. So, for replacing normal metalminds? no. But as an added ace in the sleeve? yes.

 

 

I don't know if the metal contents would be considered pure enough. They might be. I think it's an interesting concept.

 

I agree with both these statements. Assuming the metals are in the correct ratios for Ferruchemy, then that would be an awesome last trick to pull on someone who thought they'd disabled you. Sure, it wouldn't be much, but any advantage could be the tipping point.

[Pechvarry]

I'm guessing you could up the metal content/purity if you cared more for the metalmind than art fidelity. Just don't get TSS.

[happyman]

I'm sure you could.  The only caveat, though, is that if they do count as valid metal-minds, they probably also count as valid spikes!  Two-edged sword and all that.

[Observer]

I'm sure you could.  The only caveat, though, is that if they do count as valid metal-minds, they probably also count as valid spikes!  Two-edged sword and all that.

 

I don't think they touch your blood, a requirement for Hemalurgy. And the almost certainly didn't kill somebody on their way onto you, so I doubt they count.

 

You could, or course, just do what Miles did and embed bits of metal in yourself for larger reserves. Not sure how healthy that is for you though...

[Aethling]

You might be able to use a very thin wire made of a specific metal.  Not necessarily a tattoo, but the artwork applications would be interesting.    

It seems I have actually heard of this actually being done.

[Pechvarry]

Too bad Titanium isn't an Invested Metal (I just decided on this term because "metal arts metal" sounds kinda dumb, albeit rather metal).  Or else joint replacements and such would be fantastic for feruchemists.

[Kadrok]

Too bad Titanium isn't an Invested Metal. Or else joint replacements and such would be fantastic for feruchemists.

Well I don't know about you, but I use my Titanium-minds to store sex-appeal.

(Jokes. I use my Atium-Duralumin alloy to store sex-appeal)

Edited June 18, 2013 by Kadrok

[Observer]

Could always have specles of metal inside the replacement. Or, if you had to, you could just get a steel one. I know next to nothing of join replacements though, so I have no idea if it would work.

[Thought]

I'd assume that a pile of dust can't be a metalmind, because each grain would act as a separate storage device, but all of them would probably be too small to do anything. That would imply, in turn, that a tattoo couldn't be a metalmind either, because it's not a coherent piece of metal, rather it's a bunch of separate bits of metal.

 

However, to give a counter argument, if forging concepts can apply to feruchemy, then the pile of dust might not work because the dust wouldn't see itself as a coherent object, but the metal in the tattoo would probably be stable enough to see itself as a whole, thereby binding all the different specks together, realmatically, and thereby providing enough storage space to be useable

 

Actually... I like that forging perspective. That would help explain why, say, the copper ring a ferring is wearing doesn't give them access to the thirty lb block of copper in their backpack. Not only are they separate, but the objects see themselves as separate. But if they could be made to see themselves as the same specific thing, then maybe remote feruchemical access might be possible.

[Kurkistan]

I'll go along with Thought's "Forging" variant.

 

So far as "remote access",  I would hazard that it can never work. We know that breaking up a coppermind will break up the memories, despite the fact that the proper magic system might well be able to "heal" that coppermind into being whole again based upon its Cognitive perception of being whole. Unless physical objects' Cognitive identities lack any inertia at all, which I doubt.

 

EDIT: Beyond that, I also doubt it on a gut level ( ). Feruchemists need to touch their metalminds to get them to work. That's how it goes. Beyond my omniscient gut, though, I would say that a strong Cognitive unity coupled with actual physical unity might do the trick for a tattoo, but a rapidly weakening Cognitive unity without the accompanying physical unity isn't enough.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Thought]

Well, it would depend on the separate objects viewing themselves as a single object. If that could be done, then as far as the object was concerned, by touching the remote access ring, the feruchemist was touching the whole, even if the rest of the whole was a dozen feet away and actually unconnected. But, yeah, it can probably never work: getting two objects to view themselves as a single one would likely be impossible.

[Pechvarry]

So far as "remote access", I would hazard that it can never work. We know that breaking up a coppermind will break up the memories, despite the fact that the proper magic system might well be able to "heal" that coppermind into being whole again based upon its Cognitive perception of being whole. Unless physical objects' Cognitive identities lack any inertia at all, which I doubt.

For whatever reason, this makes me think of the EPR Paradox.

Short version: have your Copperspren access your metalmind for you!

[Kurkistan]

Are you aware that "copperspren" is almost certainly what we would call a Cognitive Aspect, and not properly a spren in the active sense of the word?

Edited June 19, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Pechvarry]

Yeah I'm not gonna pretend I have any idea what you're trying to say.

Still on phone, so staying brief: to connect 2 objects such that touching one qualifies as touching both, one could maybe subject them to some sort of quantum entanglement.

Fancy that. Spren exhibit a few quantum physics-esque properties.

Not a theory I actually intend to argue. Just a fun thought experiment.

[Kurkistan]

Yeah I'm not gonna pretend I have any idea what you're trying to say.

Fair enough. At leat you're honest.

I was referring to this quote, which, I argue (rather well, if I may say so) proves pretty well that Hessina's "there's a spren in everything" is, more properly, talking about everything having some kind of Cognitive aspect, which is quite distinct from the spren we see, the ones that represent forces, emotions, and whatnot. So while a coppermind has "a spren" in the sense that it has a definite conception of how its viewed and how its viewed by others, it most likely does not have the more active version.

 

Still on phone, so staying brief: to connect 2 objects such that touching one qualifies as touching both, one could maybe subject them to some sort of quantum entanglement.

Fancy that. Spren exhibit a few quantum physics-esque properties.

Not a theory I actually intend to argue. Just a fun thought experiment.

 

So, if you accept what I say, then you won't have any kind of copper-spren to facilitate such an entanglement.

[Aradel]

Kirk, you're forgetting spanreeds. If stormlight infused gems and spren can sync to each other across vast distances, there may be a functional equivilant for Scadrial. Especially considering the "Magic Technology" Brandon has said exsists there.

It might work, but I'll bet it's more than a little tricky.

[Kurkistan]

That is a good point on the known existence of "entanglement" effects on Roshar giving us some more wiggle room to consider similar effects on other Shardworlds. However, conjoiner fabrials (presumably) consist of trapping a single spren in a single gem, then splitting the gem in half. That's a rather unique circumstance that requires spren (proper spren, not just Cognitive aspects) in order to work. Conjoiners are rather strongly dependent on their initial singularity, and that's a relatively unique state of affairs in the Cosmere, so far as we've seen.

 

Maybe there is some techno-magic way to get it done on Scadrial, one not involving spren, but I must say that I doubt it.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Pechvarry]

Ehh. Spren was just a cosmere-aware way to mention QEDs.

Maybe taking an invested object to Roshar and splitting it under that planetary identity would make it still see itself as a whole. Maybe bonding with a spren, Syl style, makes it a strong enough part of your identity to be considered you and it can just go sit on your metalmind.

But this is all rather semantic. Whether it's achieved via spren or straight cognitive aspect or particle fission, it's just an amusing thought that for any power that specifies touch, one could feasibly trick the universe into thinking you are touching.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Senor Feesh]

I wholly support the notion of remote-access metalminds, simply because it would be AWESOME.

 

Cosmere versions of the Choedan Kal anyone?

[king of nowhere]

I disagree with the feasibility of tattoo metalmind. the metals contained in the ink, as far as I know, are metal ions, possibly bound in complexes to other organic molecules. there's plenty of metal ions that will give intersting colors that way. there's a demonstration for students where you take some copper salts and change their color in a half dozen ways just by replacing the ligands. But for feruchemy? you need metallic metal. an aggregate of metal atoms bound reciprocally by a metallic bond. And bulk metal is no good for color. gold is yellow, copper is red, every other metal on the table is grey, white, silvery, or a variation on the theme. Maybe osmium has a bluish tone, not sure, but it's not feruchemical anyway.

A possibility to make it work is to use nanoparticles. However, nanoparticles have properties that are sort of midway between bulk metal and isolated atoms. Not sure if they would be good enough for feruchemy. But even if they were, they are nasty little buggers to work with. Trust me, I did my master thesis on them.They have a tendency to aggregate. They have several chemical properties that would not be suitable for the task. And they probably cause cancer if they reach the blood or penetrate the living tissue.

 

So, I think the easiest way is still to embed some splinter of metal in your body. if they are small and in the right place, they are not a healt hazard. After all, we put microchips under the skin of animals, and it's perfectly safe.

[Kadrok]

/>/>So, I think the easiest way is still to embed some splinter of metal in your body. if they are small and in the right place, they are not a healt hazard. After all, we put microchips under the skin of animals, and it's perfectly safe.

I too started out thinking along the lines of installing metal 'nodes' throughout the body, but from what I read (googling 'metals in the body') the metals would degrade over time, is that not the case (you sound more knowledgeable in this)? Or are there places in the body, or ways of treating the metal that would prevent this breakdown?

AoL and Mistborn Spoilers.

I wonder if the metals being invested Feruchemically prevents this breakdown in the same way I assume being invested Hemalurgically prevents breakdown for Inquisitor spikes. Afterall, Marsh has been hanging around for 300 years, I would have imagined his spikes would have corroded somewhat.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Kadrok

[king of nowhere]

I too started out thinking along the lines of installing metal 'nodes' throughout the body, but from what I read (googling 'metals in the body') the metals would degrade over time, is that not the case (you sound more knowledgeable in this)? Or are there places in the body, or ways of treating the metal that would prevent this breakdown?

AoL and Mistborn Spoilers.

I wonder if the metals being invested Feruchemically prevents this breakdown in the same way I assume being invested Hemalurgically prevents breakdown for Inquisitor spikes. Afterall, Marsh has been hanging around for 300 years, I would have imagined his spikes would have corroded somewhat.

Good point. I don't really know about metal corrosion inside human body, but it is true that most metal will corrode as there are enough reactive chemicals to attack them. Gold would resist, and most other noble metals, but many allomanticc metals, like iron and steel, or tin or zinc, would corrode. not sure about copper. There are chemical reatment that would prevent this, but they would all involve covering those metals with a layer of something else that will prevent furether oxidation. And since you must touch metals to access their feruchemy, I think that kind of treatment would prevent you from tapping them, even if the layer is only a few tens of atoms thick. But the process of degradation should be slow enough that all you had to do to fix it would be getting new metalminds every few years, so it still could be feasible.

 

On the other hand, if inquisitors spikes did not corrode, maybe invested metal is chemically resistant.

That could be a neat trick in the construction field: you have a feruchemist fill a small amount of power into a large metal structure and you achieve cheap corrosion resistance.