The Oathpact

[Kiwi]

Ok, so I thought about continuing in my thread here, since that's where all of my thinking began.  But this is a separate theory and I think it deserves it's own.

 

Thanks to skaa's post, and probably a few others, I think I may have a clue as to what lead to the Oathpact.

 

What if the Oathpact came down to a philisophical difference between Honor/Cultivation and Odium?  If given power, what would sentient beings do with it?  Be honorable and save people?  Or destroy?

 

Because of this, I think I'm starting to understand the layout of Surgbinding chart.  I believe that the Ten Surges may come Honor and Cultivation (5 each), and that each order comes from a combination of 1 Surge from Honor and 1 Surge from Cultivation.  Furthermore, I think that all Shardblades come from Odium.  I'll try and explain my thought process of how I came to this conclusion.

 

First off, I don't agree with everything in skaa's post that I linked, but I do agree that Shardblades come from Odium.  Anyone who has a Shardblade is bound to it, and it seems like anyone who speaks of the Thrill is bound to a Shardblade.  It has been said that the Thrill basically makes men into more efficient killing machines.  Shardblades are also very destructive weapons, along the lines of Odium.  BUT... they don't force men to do the horrible things they do, mankind has merely been given a tool and it is up to them to decide how to use it.

 

Next, in some of Dalinar's visions, I remember there being a scene where he saw a woman from the Knights Radiant heal someone.  This sounds VERY cultivation-y (New word?).  IIRC all the Radiants were all considered Surgebinders.  I think the Radiant who healed may have been using some kind of fabrial, or atleast using infused gemstones to power whatever Healing Surge she possessed.  So my interpretation of the Surges we've seen thus far is they are fueled by Honor (Gravity) and Cultivation (Healing), and a combination of the two lead to an Order (I think it'd be kinda cool to see Kaladin have the Healing Surge as his second one, since he's also a surgeon).  I don't know that we've seen anyone use both Surges they have available to them, but I may be wrong on that.

 

If I am correct, and I'm not saying I am, then it would support my other short theory on the importance of symmetry (Each order has 1 Surge from Honor, and 1 Surge from Cultivation).  Also, like I explain in the following paragraph, each side essentially equal.

 

This obviously leads to a very important question: What about Voidbinding?  Well... I haven't gotten that far yet.  I do believe, though, that they are given the same tools: A magic system fueled by Honor and Cultivation (though perverted, or maybe inversed) and Shardblades from Odium.  Both sides are given the same tools, which will prevail?

 

I also think Stone plays an important roll in both magic system, but I haven't quite figured that part out either.  There are hints from the Shin, who believe walking on and carving Stone is blasphemy, and also think that using Stormlight as decoration is profane.  It's also been hinted that Chasmfiends, which contain Gemhearts, are not fully developed.  Perhaps they eventually grow into massive Stone creatures that can be controlled through binding?  And since they are naturally occuring in world, perhaps that comes from Cultivation?  We know that Gemhearts are used in Soulcasting, so it may not be too much of a stretch to imagine.  But then again, maybe it is.

 

The more I think on these things, the bigger headache I get.  It seems like we've only seen the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, on Roshar.  The scope of these Magic systems, and how they have influence on the world is just mind blowing *blasting sound and head explodes* /dead

[hoser]

Anyone who has a Shardblade is bound to it, and it seems like anyone who speaks of the Thrill is bound to a Shardblade.

I hate to throw cold water on creative thinking, but ...

If Dalinar was bound to his Shardblade, how could he give it away?  And how could Elhokar yield his Shardblade for duels if he was bound?  It seems that Shardblades are bound to people, but not vice versa.  Doesn't Sadeas speak of the Thrill before he has a Shardblade? I don't agree with either of these assertions.  People can be bound to Shards, but I don't see Shardblades as binding people. 

 

I think it'd be kinda cool to see Kaladin have the Healing Surge as his second one, since he's also a surgeon.  I don't know that we've seen anyone use both Surges they have available to them, but I may be wrong on that.

Kaladin's two surges are known to be gravity and pressure.  He uses gravity to attract arrows to objects he is in contact with (shield, bridge, etc) pressure to stick things together, land when falling from height (when placing the makeshift armor under the bridge) and amplify his voice (yelling at Adolin in the Tower battle).

 

It's also been hinted that Chasmfiends, which contain Gemhearts, are not fully developed.

It's been outright stated that we have seen post-pupation Chasmfiends, but not pre-pupation Chasmfiends.  I am not aware of any hints that the Chasmfiend we saw was not fully developed.  Please correct me if I am missing something. 

 

Semi-relevant quotes:

Interview: Dec 25th, 2010

Stormblessed.com Interview with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

 

Question

You've mentioned that each of the smaller glyphs on the inside cover of the The Way of Kings represents a type of magic. Can you tell us how many of these types we've seen so far?

Brandon Sanderson

Remember that to get an order of the Knights Radiant you take two of the small glyphs and one of the large glyphs. The large glyph represents a concept or an ideal mixed with an essence, what they call the elements of this world, with two magics attached to it. You have seen the Windrunners, which is the first, top-right glyph, mixed with the two Surges—the forces in this world—attached to it. So you've seen pressure and gravitation as mixed together to form a Windrunner. You have seen one of the other Surges, which is Soulcasting—Transformation—though which other Surges that mixes with to form orders of the Knights Radiant I am not specifically going to say at this time. What else have you seen? Those are the only ones that are overt. But you have seen the effects of others.

 

Q: Have any Chasmfiends managed to mature? Or have they all been caught before they could finish?

Brandon: You've already seen one. The enormous Chasmfiend that Dalinar fought was one that had successfully matured. You haven't seen what they start out as...

Edited June 9, 2013 by hoser

[Shardbearer]

The first chasmfiend we see, the one that almost killed, had already pupated according to WOB.

[Leuthie]

Shardblades were obviously created to destroy things like Midnight Essence and Thunderclasts, with their ability to kill people being a side effect. Did Odium create them to destroy his own creations? Were Midnight Essences and Thunderclasts not created by Odium?

[Kiwi]

I hate to throw cold water on creative thinking, but ...

If Dalinar was bound to his Shardblade, how could he give it away?  And how could Elhokar yield his Shardblade for duels if he was bound?  It seems that Shardblades are bound to people, but not vice versa.  Doesn't Sadeas speak of the Thrill before he has a Shardblade? I don't agree with either of these assertions.  People can be bound to Shards, but I don't see Shardblades as binding people. 

 

Kaladin's two surges are known to be gravity and pressure.  He uses gravity to attract arrows to objects he is in contact with (shield, bridge, etc) pressure to stick things together, land when falling from height (when placing the makeshift armor under the bridge) and amplify his voice (yelling at Adolin in the Tower battle).

 

It's been outright stated that we have seen post-pupation Chasmfiends, but not pre-pupation Chasmfiends.  I am not aware of any hints that the Chasmfiend we saw was not fully developed.  Please correct me if I am missing something. 

 

Semi-relevant quotes:

Interview: Dec 25th, 2010

Stormblessed.com Interview with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

 

Oh by all means, throw cold water on my creative thinking, because that's all this is.

 

Just because you're bound to something doesn't have to mean you're permanently bound.  And I doubt there needs to be a distinction on the binding, once two things are bound they are bound together until they are separated.  The Heralds were suppose to be bound to the Oathpact, and that obviously didn't last forever.  But you do have a point about Sadeas... perhaps I could add Shardplate to the idea as well?  I don't remember if it is bound like Shardblades though, but if it is, Sadeas does have Shardplate.  I may be stretching to find things that fit my theory though... so take it with a grain of salt.

 

I guess I was lumping Gravity and Pressure together, wasn't aware they were two different Surges.  That's okay though, I never said this theory was perfect.

 

As far as the Chasmfiends, I was just go off on tangents by that point.

 

Shardblades were obviously created to destroy things like Midnight Essence and Thunderclasts, with their ability to kill people being a side effect. Did Odium create them to destroy his own creations? Were Midnight Essences and Thunderclasts not created by Odium?

 

Exactly!  It's been said that Odium has some rules he must follow, but there's only one that has been hinted at: A Champion.  Well what of other rules?  I'd imagine that the Oathpact was full of rules, and typically something like a pact won't favor one side more than the other.  If the people of Honor/Cultivation didn't have the means to fight fairly, what kind of pact would that be? 

 

Obviously it's difficult to get a lot of the specific details of the Oathpact right now with our limited knowledge, but I think if Odium was bound to the Oathpact, he would have to give up something in return.  So it's possible, at the very least, that he had to provide mankind with the means to fight back against his own creations, according to the Oathpact.

 

Ultimately this is just a theory, please try and poke holes in it.  These type of discussions are good

 

Thanks for the comments.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Kiwi

[skaa]

Thanks to skaa's post, and probably a few others, I think I may have a clue as to what lead to the Oathpact.

 

I'm glad my wild ramblings were somehow able to inspire creative thought.

 

I have one question, though. Why did you think the Heralds take the Honorblades in the first place, if they knew Shardblades were Odium's tools? I'm curious because I extended my theory to handle that issue, and you said you only agreed with the "Shardblades are from Odium" part.

 

 

Did Odium create them to destroy his own creations?

 

Rayse created them to destroy anything. He doesn't particularly love his own creatures because, if you remember, he's the personification of odium.

 

Though... Shardblades are immune to each other, so there's that. I suppose Odium might love weapons more than he loves creatures...

Edited June 10, 2013 by skaa

[Shardlet]

First off, I don't agree with everything in skaa's post that I linked, but I do agree that Shardblades come from Odium.  Anyone who has a Shardblade is bound to it, and it seems like anyone who speaks of the Thrill is bound to a Shardblade.  It has been said that the Thrill basically makes men into more efficient killing machines.  Shardblades are also very destructive weapons, along the lines of Odium.  BUT... they don't force men to do the horrible things they do, mankind has merely been given a tool and it is up to them to decide how to use it.

 

I am rather uncertain as to whether, the Shardblades are from Odium.  I am more inclined to think of them as voluntary splinters of Honor which were provided to the Heralds (Honorblades) and the KR (Radiantblades) for the purpose of defending Roshar against the forces of Odium.  To be sure, Syl hates the blades with a passion.  But, I believe this is due to their current condition rather than their original comdition.  I believe, as I expounded more in depth here, that the nature of the Shardblades has been corrupted by the intent for which they have been used since the Recreance.  From that point (the Recreance) on, the blades have been used almost exclusively for the purpose obtaining wealth and power.  This is far removed from the purpose which I believe they were created. 

 

I do make an exception for the case of the Shardblade wielded by Szeth (and others like it?).  As I pointed out here, it is described in a different manner than other Shardblades and it seems it may be Odium's version of a Shardblade.

[Kiwi]

I'm glad my wild ramblings were somehow able to inspire creative thought.

 

I have one question, though. Why did you think the Heralds take the Honorblades in the first place, if they knew Shardblades were Odium's tools? I'm curious because I extended my theory to handle that issue, and you said you only agreed with the "Shardblades are from Odium" part.

 

Hmm, this is a tough one.

 

I had read your extension, and that's really where I began to question things.  Not that all of that wouldn't be possible, just that my mind was going down a different path. 

 

This is all speculation of course.  But perhaps Odium came to Roshar with the intentions of making it another Sel.  But instead, was bound to this Oathpact to give Honor & Cultivation a chance to survive.  Honorspren seem to be able to bind things, so maybe Honor himself forced this on him somehow.  Perhaps in exchange for the 10 heralds sacrificing themselves after each Desolation, the rest of the people were given the tools in order to fight back.

 

In the opening scene, Jezrien says, "Better that one man should suffer than ten."  It could be a reference to the original intent of this Oathpact.  Better that 10 men should suffer than all mankind.  From there you might be able to delve into the importance of 10.  10 heartbeats to summon Shardblades for each Herald that is suffering for the times of peace.  The time period between Desolations is strongly connected to how many Heralds are in Damnation, or so it has been hinted at.  Further speculation on top of further speculation.  But fun

 

I know there's the "3 of 16 ruled..." death cry, so Idk if this totally fits.  I'm a little fuzzy on the details of when all the Shards arrived at Roshar.

[Isomere]

None of the shards are native to Roshar. Cultivation and Honor arrived long before Odium. There is another shard on a nearby planet or moon in the same solar system that was likely there before honor and cultivation showed up.

[Binnut]

None of the shards are native to Roshar. Cultivation and Honor arrived long before Odium. There is another shard on a nearby planet or moon in the same solar system that was likely there before honor and cultivation showed up.

I have seen theories of that, bur have it been confirmed?

[Isomere]

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=692/#11

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

I will tell you that one of the novels I skipped is actually set in the same solar system.

17TH SHARD

Oh...so this is the series that that book shares.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, this is the series that the book shares that I skipped. I was planning to do it first, but now was the time to do the Stormlight Archive. So you will eventually see a book set on a planet in the same solar system. You could just pick out in the sky of Roshar if you were watching when ..., and it may even get mentioned because it's a fairly close planet.

17TH SHARD

Is that on Divine Silence?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Silence Divine happens there.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836/#49

So the number of Shards that have been on Roshar is three, correct?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Correct.

ZAS

People have been thrown by you saying that Odium is not native to Roshar.

BRANDON

Odium is not native, that's the thing. Are any of them native? So if you dig the deeper question, are any of them native, ehhh, none of them are native to the planets you've seen so far. What I probably should've said to be more precise is that Honor and Cultivation were there long before Odium showed up.

 

A planet visible from Roshar has a shard. Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar long before Odium showed up, but presumably after leaving their own native planets. To me it makes sense that the "Old Magic" was the magic available before the Almighty showed up, but that is purely conjecture. It is not clear if the shard from silence divine has any magical influence on Roshar, but it is clear that it never actually "came" to Roshar since only three shards (Honor, Cultivation and Odium) have been on the planet. 

 

[Shardlet]

I have seen theories of that, bur have it been confirmed?

 

Here is the quote and reference:

Quote

 

ZAS

So the number of Shards that have been on Roshar is three, correct?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Correct.

 

ZAS

People have been thrown by you saying that Odium is not native to Roshar.

 

BRANDON

Odium is not native, that's the thing. Are any of them native? So if you dig the deeper question, are any of them native, ehhh, none of them are native to the planets you've seen so far. What I probably should've said to be more precise is that Honor and Cultivation were there long before Odium showed up.

 

From here: http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=836#49

 

Edit: Nevermind, Isomere beat me to it while I was reading another post. Pico de Gallo!!!!

Edited June 22, 2013 by Shardlet

[Leuthie]

The Shards are all native to Yolen. Holders from Yolen. Shards pieces of Adonalsium..from Yolen. They all went to planets they're not native to.

Odium went elsewhere before coming to Roshar (like Sel); Honor and Cultivation went straight to Roshar. That's what Sanderson is saying.

[Windrunner]

That straight to Roshar bit is not explicitly confirmed. We know that they arrived on Roshar together before Odium, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had been somewhere else first, with the whole Tranquiline Halls mythos going on.

[Carcinios]

One thought I had on how the King could loan his shardblade even whilst bound to the blade:

- we know that a shardblade does not disappear when driven into rock.

- I don't think this was ever explicitly stated to only apply to rock in the ground.

-There could be some sort of stone disc or ring that the blade is driven through preventing it from vanishing and allowing it to be used by someone else whilst Elhokar was effectively summoning the blade.

[NotBridge4]

Shardblades were obviously created to destroy things like Midnight Essence and Thunderclasts, with their ability to kill people being a side effect. Did Odium create them to destroy his own creations? Were Midnight Essences and Thunderclasts not created by Odium?

 

Also, Shardplate and blades glowed before the Knights Radiant were disbanded. This implies a link between the glow and honor and by extension, the shards.

On top of that, the shards are described as works of art, and Odium doesn't strike me as the artistic type.

Given all the evidence, it seems unlikely to me that Shardplate and Shardblades are creations of Odium.

[Isomere]

The Shards are all native to Yolen. Holders from Yolen. Shards pieces of Adonalsium..from Yolen. They all went to planets they're not native to.

Odium went elsewhere before coming to Roshar (like Sel); Honor and Cultivation went straight to Roshar. That's what Sanderson is saying.

 

Yea native is kinda vague. I'm coming up with several ways to use that term, will be interesting to see how it ends up:

1. A shard is native to the first planet it "occupied" after the Shattering of Adonalsium
2. A shard is native to any planet it creates from scratch 
3. A shard is native if it was the first to create sentient life on a planet. 
4. A shard is native if it was the first "investiture" to arrive on the planet. (perhaps the same thing as option 3)
5. Leuthie's idea that all shards are native to Yolen

 

Given all the evidence, it seems unlikely to me that Shardplate and Shardblades are creations of Odium.

 

I also think most of the shardblades we see in the WoK are derived from the Almighty, though Szeth's could be an exception. 

[Shardlet]

Also, Shardplate and blades glowed before the Knights Radiant were disbanded. This implies a link between the glow and honor and by extension, the shards.

On top of that, the shards are described as works of art, and Odium doesn't strike me as the artistic type.

Given all the evidence, it seems unlikely to me that Shardplate and Shardblades are creations of Odium.

 

That is a really dang good point Notbridge4.  If Odium created the shardblades as a requirement of the Oathpact, then why are they fancy?  I doubt that, under these conditions, Odium would have cared a whit about how pretty they were.

 

@Carcinios- This idea that, for a shardblade to remain when released, it needs to be driven into stone, is very pervasive.  But I don't think it is justified.  When Dalinar describes his shardblade while fighting, he only says that for it to remain when released, he needs to will it to stay.  Yes, whenever we have seen a blade stay, it has been driven into stone. But, if you are in battle and you want to put down your sword, you are going to drive it into the ground so you can grab it again easy.  You are not going to set it down flat.  It just so happens that in Eastern Roshar the ground is stone everywhere.  So, if you drive your blade into the ground, it will necessarily be driven into stone.  In the end scene with Sadeas, Dalinar is not going hand the blade to Sadeas, because how are you and your soldiers going to react if a rival is approaching you with a summoned blade?  He's not going to throw it down, because these things are special and you just don't treat them that way.  He also is not going to set it down on the ground gently, this would be weak.  The situation demanded that he drive it into the ground to make the offer.

 

Long story short, I don't think it needs to be driven into stone.

[Windborne Sword]

What if the Shardblades and Plate were created by Honor and Cultivation? That could explain why they are so artistic and would also link Cultivation to Shallan's abilities with her perfect memory snapshots that she uses up whenever she draws a picture. Odium splintering Honor could have affected the Blades and Plate in some way that prevented them from glowing afterwards.

[Meg]

The Shards are all native to Yolen. Holders from Yolen. Shards pieces of Adonalsium..from Yolen. They all went to planets they're not native to.

Odium went elsewhere before coming to Roshar (like Sel); Honor and Cultivation went straight to Roshar. That's what Sanderson is saying.

 

 

Theory? Speculation? Source? Evidence? 

 

 

 

Yea native is kinda vague. I'm coming up with several ways to use that term, will be interesting to see how it ends up:

1. A shard is native to the first planet it "occupied" after the Shattering of Adonalsium
2. A shard is native to any planet it creates from scratch 
3. A shard is native if it was the first to create sentient life on a planet. 
4. A shard is native if it was the first "investiture" to arrive on the planet. (perhaps the same thing as option 3)
5. Leuthie's idea that all shards are native to Yolen

Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar long before Odium showed up, but presumably after leaving their own native planets.  

 

That's the question: Do (or did) the Shards (of Adonalsium!) have "own native planets"? 

 

That question catches up with my question whether there were all the planets/Shardworlds prior to the Shattering of Adonalsium. 

[DocHoliday]

Hmm. Honor points out stars going dark in Dalinar's last vision. Is there a timeframe for Silence Divine? More pertaining does it occur prior to Honor demise?

 

Also, do we have any confirmation that honor and cultivation came to Roshar at the same time? People refer to the Almighty and the Tranquiline Halls repeatedly, but NOONE talks about Cultivation. Alot of theories have been proposed about Honor coming to Roshar...but why is there then no mention of his counterpart?

[Windrunner]

Here you are:

LANCE ALVEIN
Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Good question. They came together.
Source

[Meg]

Also, do we have any confirmation that honor and cultivation came to Roshar at the same time? People refer to the Almighty and the Tranquiline Halls repeatedly, but NOONE talks about Cultivation. Alot of theories have been proposed about Honor coming to Roshar...but why is there then no mention of his counterpart?

 

We do have that confirmation: 

 

Lance Alvein

Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. They came together.

 

source

 

And I wouldn't say that Cultivation is a "counterpart" of Honor: 

 

STORMATLAS

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

source

 

 

And: Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar long before Odium arrived.

 

But, yes, I'm, too, confused that there is no mention of Cultivation. 

 

edit: ninjad by Windrunner  but I have more quotes. 

Edited July 6, 2013 by Meg

[Isomere]

People refer to the Almighty and the Tranquiline Halls repeatedly, but NO ONE talks about Cultivation. Alot of theories have been proposed about Honor coming to Roshar...but why is there then no mention of his counterpart?

The Almighty was BOTH Honor and Cultivation according to my theory. The reason they weren't mentioned separately is because they had converged. 

[DocHoliday]

I've read that Thread Isomere. I'm just not sure I agree. Cultivation still being around seems to me to be a far better reason for Odium to still be sticking around. All though perhaps romantically involved did for the double conscience you describe