Of Honorblades and Dawnshards

[blackmagic3]

From what I can glean its is the consensus that the Heralds carried the Honorblades, when I first came to the forums I was puzzled because I  thought that the Heralds carried the Dawnshards. I assumed people must have a good reason for believing so, therefore I didn't make an issue of it. During one of my rereads  I came across a couple of quotes with  interesting implications.

 

“You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And… without the Dawnshards…"  Tanavast during Dalinar's vision, the implication being that a Dawnshard is a weapon that can be used against Odium.

 

Yo Dawg, I heard you guys like quotes so here is a quote in a quote.(Apologies I digress)

 

"“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

—From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies."

Epigraph from Chapter 36

 

This quote just illustrates the association of the Dawnshards with the Heralds. The only other mention of Dawnshards is  metaphorically by Shallan. In regards to Honorblades they are mentioned twice, once by Shallan in the same metaphorical capacity as Dawnshards and then by Dalinar who likens them to fireplace poker in his vision of the midnight essence.

 

My point is that there is an association of Dawnshards with the Heralds and an implication that Dawnshards are used to combat Odium while there is no information about Honorblades other than its metaphorical use. All I suggest is that it shouldn't be established that Honorblades were carried by the Heralds because there is more evidence linking the Dawnshards to the Heralds.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Satsuoni]

There is more evidence. For example, here:

Can a Herald's blade/equipment be um....adopted? I only ask because Dalinar seems to be lacking one and that Herald at the end did kick the bucket in his capital and he's gonna need more than armor when Szeth shows up.

Brandon Sanderson (Goodreads)

Someone who is not himself or herself a Herald can indeed use one of the Honorblades.

And probably more, but I can't search right now.

We also know (IIRC) that Honorblades are fancy shardblades. Dawnshard, on the other hand, seems to be something else. Maybe it is something that can be used to force Odium to choose a champion? Binding him, as it were.

[hoser]

In the Prelude the Heralds have Honorblades, which we know from a herald viewpoint.  At the end, Taln shows up with a Shardblade that is likely an Honorblade, as it behaves differently than Radiantblades and the Szethblade. 

Neither of the quotes you offer connects the Heralds with Dawnshards directly. 

[blackmagic3]

Thank you Satsuoni I didn't know Brandon said that. It appears that people did have a good reason to believe honour blades were what the heralds carried.

Edited May 31, 2013 by blackmagic3

[Kolo]

I am now wondering whether or not the Dawnshards were actually swords. Both Shardblades and Honorlades are clearly weapons, but you don't need to be a sword to " bind any creature."

[skaa]

I am now wondering whether or not the Dawnshards were actually swords. Both Shardblades and Honorlades are clearly weapons, but you don't need to be a sword to " bind any creature."

 

Yes. And they're not Shardplate either since you seem to have to hold them in your hands.

 

I'm guessing they were some sort of wand or instrument that can be used to (among other things) bind people to their oaths. Perhaps their disappearance is connected to why the nine Heralds abandoned the Oathpact and how Rayse was able to finally kill Tanavast.

 

Edit: I wonder if Brandon named the Dawnshards and the Dawnsingers after the real life Order of the Golden Dawn? If so, the answer to their purpose might lie in Hermeticism and theurgy. *goes to research further*

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[The Count]

“You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And… without the Dawnshards…"  Tanavast during Dalinar's vision, the implication being that a Dawnshard is a weapon that can be used against Odium.

 

Not sure we can infer that the Dawnshards are a weapon from this necessarily.

 

Tanavast could be saying a number of things here:

 

1/ Without the Dawnshards, you have no hope of defeating a champion of Odium.

 

OR

 

2/ Without the Dawnshards you will not be able to make Odium choose a champion.

 

Personally I tend towards the second option.

 

The quote implies either a weapon (can be used to fight a champion of Odium) OR a tool which can somehow be used to influence the behaviour of a full Shard (can get Odium to choose a champion).

 

Either way, they are clearly extremely powerful artifacts.

 

As an asside, the quote linking the Dawnshards with binding creatures is interesting to me. Particularly since we have encounterd the concept of binding inherent to the Magic of Roshar - Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Nahel Bonds etc.

 

So there also seems some connection between Dawnshards and the Magic on Roshar. Mabe the Dawnshards were used to create the first Surgebinders?

Edited June 12, 2013 by MadRand

[blackmagic3]

I wrote this when I was under the assumption that dawnshards could have been the heralds blades, and I am glad that I approached it obliquely or I would have made a bigger fool of myself for I didn't know there was WoB on honourblades.

Rereading parts of the book I began to suspect that dawnshards are older than the heralds. All the things in the book that can be associated with dawn are the dawnchant, dawnsingers and dawncities are all by implication associated with the inception of Roshar. My theory is that the dawnshard precede the cycle of desolations and have the power to limit our actively oppose the power of odium.

[Leuthie]

This "touching spren to corrupt them then they dive into the ground and bind with rock to become Thunderclasts" from the most recent reading, combined with "Dawnshards allow one to bind anything" (paraphrased) tells me that binding spren to stuff to create, for a lack of a better term, golems was a thing. Maybe the good guys needed Dawnshards to do it. Maybe Odium can do it without them. Or maybe he has the Dawnshards.

Maybe shardblades and Oathpacts and Heralds were ways to combat the golems that the bad guys can still make but the good guys can't because they lost the Dawnshards that made it possible.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Leuthie

[skaa]

Maybe shardblades and Oathpacts and Heralds were ways to combat the golems that the bad guys can still make but the good guys can't because they lost the Dawnshards that made it possible.

 

Well, Thunderclasts can apparently be fought using hammers (though of course a Shardblade would be of an immense help). Also, we don't know yet if Dawnshards can transform non-living matter into living matter (e.g. golems). All we know is that they bind creatures, "voidish or mortal".

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[macros]

Hello everyone. I have been a lurker here for awhile now and decided to finally start making some posts. If dawnshards have the ability to bind, is it possible that they can be used to bind spren to people to form new KR?

[Leuthie]

Well, Thunderclasts can apparently be fought using hammers (though of course a Shardblade would be of an immense help). Also, we don't know yet if Dawnshards can transform non-living matter into living matter (e.g. golems). All we know is that they bind creatures, "voidish or mortal".

Hence all the maybes and possiblys in my post. My guess is that the "binding" of Dawnshards is at least slightly related to the process behind what happened in that reading: touch to change the spren, spren binds to rock to become Thunderclast. Total speculation.

And yes, you can fight a huge animated piece of rock with hammers. You can technically take out a tank with pistols, but most troops would prefer something better. I'm guessing they want hammers because spears and blades are completely useless, not because the hammers are sufficient.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well, I think they can only animate things made out of the ten essences.  We've got rock monsters and smoke monsters, and they're called the midnight essence.

[skaa]

Hence all the maybes and possiblys in my post. My guess is that the "binding" of Dawnshards is at least slightly related to the process behind what happened in that reading: touch to change the spren, spren binds to rock to become Thunderclast. Total speculation.

You're right, I should have realized you were just speculating. I'm sorry. I guess I was just focusing too much on the "voidish or mortal" part, since spren don't seem to be either of those. I wasn't able to consider the possibility that the Dawnshards might be able to affect them as well.

[Leuthie]

Voidish might actually refer to spren.

[Haelbarde]

Digging up an old thread, but I have a quote to add.

 

Acording to legend, the Shardblades were first carried by the Knights Radiant uncounted ages ago. Gifts of their god, granted to allow them to fight horrors of rock and flame, dozens of feet tall, foes whose eyes burned with hatred. The Voidbringers. When your foe had skin as hard as stone itself, steel was useless. Something supernal was required.

 

supernal

suːˈpəːn(ə)l,sjuː-/

adjective

literary

 

1. 1.

   relating to the sky or the heavens; celestial.

    

    

    

While this could just relate to the fact that it was from the Gods, it is interesting that supernal would describe dawn.

[stratix]

Not sure we can infer that the Dawnshards are a weapon from this necessarily.

 

Tanavast could be saying a number of things here:

 

1/ Without the Dawnshards, you have no hope of defeating a champion of Odium.

 

OR

 

2/ Without the Dawnshards you will not be able to make Odium choose a champion.

 

Personally I tend towards the second option.

 

The quote implies either a weapon (can be used to fight a champion of Odium) OR a tool which can somehow be used to influence the behaviour of a full Shard (can get Odium to choose a champion).

 

Either way, they are clearly extremely powerful artifacts.

 

As an asside, the quote linking the Dawnshards with binding creatures is interesting to me. Particularly since we have encounterd the concept of binding inherent to the Magic of Roshar - Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Nahel Bonds etc.

 

So there also seems some connection between Dawnshards and the Magic on Roshar. Mabe the Dawnshards were used to create the first Surgebinders?

 

I personally think the "Old Magic" is the product of the dawnshards.  Who knows, perhaps Odium was once fooled into making a deal that he did not fully know the ramifications of.  Perhaps that deal is still in place?  This is why "Darkness" from the Lift interlude is so hell bent on justice.  Somehow, that deal included the Radiants to relinquish there abilities/powers.  Now, the new generation of Radiants are possibly and unknowingly rediscovering powers that are inadvertantly breaking an oath that has been keeping Odium from bringing the voidbringers.  Likewise, if any of the Parshendi bring back the voidbringers, that could also be a breach of the initial treaty.  Just a Theory :-)

[Gloom]

I've got a feeling that Dawnshards came into existence as a direct result of the shattering of Adonalsium. I don't believe that they are a direct part of the Rosharan magic system, but rather artifacts that were left behind on Roshar and could be literally anywhere. This may be something that Hoid can help with, as Honor being dead and all, would have no knowledge of Hoids involvement. I believe this may be so because they appear to have the power to force certain behaviors directly upon a Shard.