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Do all Shards have equal power/influence in all three realms?


ROSHtafARian

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Something I've been mulling over for awhile and have posited in smaller, less concrete thoughts - we know all the Shards have a physical, cognitive and spiritual aspect, and they and their power are distributed across all three Realms.  But are all of them distributed equally?  For instance, is it possible some Shards have a stronger presence and influence in the Physical realm, while others have stronger influence in the Spiritual?

 

We've posited that not every magic system's focus is necessarily physical, could this be part of it?  For instance, Ruin and Preservation had very strong physical presences and influence.  Their magic systems all had a physical focus (the physical molecular structure of metals), and their physical bodies were a major part of those magic systems with Lerasium and atium and the effects of those.  Most uses of their power involved manipulation of the Physical realm or had effects confined to the Physical.  By extension, Sazed after taking up both shards makes reference to being able to repair Vin and Elend's bodies, but not bring back their souls.  That they went somewhere he couldn't reach, but perhaps with time he'd get better at such things, etc.

 

Then contrast that with Endowment and the magic of Nalthis, in which the Spiritual (Breath) is a much more integral part of the magic.  Similarly, that which seems problematic for Sazed (restoring souls to life) is a common occurrence for Endowment, and Lightsong speaks of seeing a wave of coruscating light after he dies, from beyond which a voice speaks to him.  To me, this intimates that perhaps Endowment and his/her influence is rooted more in the Spiritual realm.  Likewise, given the peculiarities of travel in Shadesmar around Sel, and the strong Cognitive component to its many region based magics, perhaps Devotion and Dominion are more strongly rooted in the Cognitive Realm.  

 

From a certain perspective, this also matches the Shards' various Intents.  Ruin and Preservation are more Physical things, they're more natural parts of the physical universe, having to do with entropy, etc.  Devotion and Dominion are more Cognitive Intents, they're Intents that have very little meaning without sentient minds to perceive them.  All things with Physical form are beholden to the influence of Ruin and Preservation, but the Physical form of a rock has no Devotion to the land it comes from or the forces it interacts with.  That requires a mind to comprehend that Intent, let alone to adhere to it or be affected by it.  And then of course Endowment speaks of natural or innate qualities, talents, or abilities, things that are not inherently physical, but are inherent, regardless of Cognitive function, thus implying Endowment is more Spiritual.

 

I further posit that how a Shard's presence and influence is divided between the Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual realms has to do with their criteria in selecting which planet to settle.  Brandon has said that they have some control over where they ended up, but not total.  My suspicion is that like the Shards themselves, not all Shardworlds inhabit all three Realms equally.  All worlds have a Physical form of course, but perhaps some inhabit the Cognitive Realm more than others, thus making Shadesmar easier (or more dangerous, hard to say at this point) to enter, or some might be more in sync with the Spiritual realm.  Thus Shards like Endowment with a stronger Spiritual presence might have gravitated towards Nalthis due to it inhabiting the Spiritual Realm more fully than say, Scadrial.  Thus giving it more influence.

 

Does any of that make sense to anyone else?

 

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I like the general idea here, in principle. I hope you don't think of this as being negatively critical, but I'll probably spend some time looking for quotes to try and knock this down - only to see if it stands up to scrutiny. For the record I'd like it to ;) but that's currently the only way we have to test a theory's validity.

 

EDIT:

Ah, stupid fat fingers, that was meant to be an upvote  :( sorry Rosh

Edited by Windrunner
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The physical focus of Ruin and Preservation was due, at least in part, to the natural state of the planet. It is hinted that Odium might have a metal if he went to Scadrial. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#5 I wouldn't say that a shard was physical or cognitive or spiritual due to their focus, only due to whatever powers the metals have.

 

On why Sazed couldn't bring them back.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=428#10

 

Well, here's the thing. What Sazed is right now is something of a god in the classic Greek sense—a superpowered human being, elevated to a new stage of existence. Not GOD of all time and space. In a like manner, there are things that Sazed does not have power over. For instance, he couldn't bring Vin and Elend back.

Where Tindwyl exists is beyond space and time, in a place Sazed hasn't learned to touch yet. He might yet. If you want to add in your heads him working through that, feel free. But as it stands at the end of the book, he isn't yet with Tindwyl. (He is, however, with Kelsier—who refused to "Go toward the light" so to speak, and has been hanging around making trouble ever since he died. You can find hints of him in Mistborn 3 at the right moments.

 

Endowment could be snapping them up early, or could have done what Sazed could do and find a way to enter heaven and hell.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/1a3fj0/discussion_of_the_week_shadesmar_truthspren/c8tufs0

 

It is hard to travel in Shadesmar in Sel because of the power that Odium left shattered in his wake was uncontrolled and was being erratic.

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Fire away, Senor Feesh!  If I'm on the right track, it'll hold up to scrutiny.  If it doesn't, I'm not, so it hardly matters.   ;)

 

The physical focus of Ruin and Preservation was due, at least in part, to the natural state of the planet. It is hinted that Odium might have a metal if he went to Scadrial. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#5 I wouldn't say that a shard was physical or cognitive or spiritual due to their focus, only due to whatever powers the metals have.

 

On why Sazed couldn't bring them back.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=428#10

 

 

Endowment could be snapping them up early, or could have done what Sazed could do and find a way to enter heaven and hell.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/1a3fj0/discussion_of_the_week_shadesmar_truthspren/c8tufs0

 

It is hard to travel in Shadesmar in Sel because of the power that Odium left shattered in his wake was uncontrolled and was being erratic.

 

Right, and all of that would be factored in obviously, but I don't think any of that inherently contradicts what I'm saying.  We've known for awhile that the focus of a magic is due to the Shard's interaction with a planet.  What I'm saying is this would just be one more variable in determining that.  Basically, my theory is that Scadrial is a planet rooted most strongly in the Physical Realm, with very little Cognitive and Spiritual Realm overlap, compared to other planets.  This then, would be part of what determines that the focus of the magic will be physical, that the various Shards' interaction with the planet's natural state would result in physical focused magic, with metals forming from various Shards' investiture in it.  

 

Actually, let me correct myself.  I don't believe that the focus is reflective of whatever Realm the shardworld and Shard have the strongest presence in....I believe the form of a Shard's investiture in a planet and its magic is reflective of this.  On Scadrial, that investiture is present in metals, or the Physical.  On Sel, that investiture is present in shapes formed by conscious thought: Aons, soul stamps, bone formations, the shapes or positions of the body in a dance, representations of regions as defined by man-made or perceived boundaries: the Cognitive.  On Nalthis, that investiture is present in Breath, the Spiritual.  (Perhaps my wording is still wrong here, its tricky to define precisely given what we know at this stage, but I believe most of you understand what I'm suggesting here.)

 

Most simply stated:  The natural state of Scadrial is predominantly Physical....thus resulting in physical manifestations of the investiture by various Shards' interaction with it, and appealing most strongly to Shards who's nature/influence is predominantly Physical, a key factor in Ruin and Preservation 'settling' there,  By contrast, Nalthis has a stronger presence in the Spiritual Realm, thus spiritual manifestations of investiture result from Shardic interactions there.  Were other Shards to interact with Nalthis, at least significantly enough to invest portions of themselves there, these investitures would manifest as something akin to Breath.  Similarly, Sel, more strongly Cognitive than the other two worlds manifests investiture in Cognitive displays.  

 

As for your other points Nepene, I don't believe those quotes contradict my (admittedly rough and barebones) theory in and of themselves.  The critical component of the Sazed point I believe is when Brandon says this:

 

In a like manner, there are things that Sazed does not have power over. For instance, he couldn't bring Vin and Elend back.

 

There are things Sazed does not have power over.  This does nothing to say that all Shards are limited in the same ways, and indeed, that's exactly what I'm getting at here.  That Sazed holds two Shards, but they're Shards with Physical Intent.  That's where most of his power lies, I believe, and there will always be things Shards of Cognitive or Spiritual Intent will be better at, or will have power over, while he can manipulate the Physical Realm in ways they can not.  And Brandon's extrapolation of that quote would seem to indicate its more a matter of degree....he hints there are ways Sazed could eventually bring Vin and Elend back, if he became skilled or knowledgeable enough.  So perhaps its more accurate to say that while all the Shards are inherently capable of the same things, some are better at some things than others, depending on which Realm their influence lies in most strongly.  In fact, Honor's line about Cultivation being better at seeing the future than he would seem to indicate this as well.

 

And as for the quote about travel in Shadesmar being dangerous as a result of Odium's trip to Sel, you'll note that I mentioned the pecularities of travel in Shadesmar around Sel, first and foremost.  I don't have the quote handy, but I believe I've seen discussion about a quote of Brandon's where he mentioned that Shadesmar has always been tricky to navigate around Shadesmar, even before Odium came to Sel.  That quote about the mindless power he left in his wake there explains why its more dangerous to travel there now, but doesn't address why Shadesmar has always had a seemingly different relationship with Sel than the other Shardworlds we've seen thus far.

Edited by ROSHtafARian
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We've known for awhile that the focus of a magic is due to the Shard's interaction with a planet.

 

We don't know this explicitly. It may be that a focus is entirely determined by what planet you are on. Any shard that is on Nalthis may have a metal based magic system say. Anyway, we do not have nearly enough evidence to say that one shard is physical or spiritual based just on that. It could be as you say that shards are attracted to worlds that fit their magic systems, it could be that shardic qualities determine what focus a world has, but we don't have any evidence to say yet.

 

On Sel, wouldn't Devotion, love, be more of a spiritual attribute? An intent of our connections to others. Same with Dominion, about how a ruler relates to their subjects. But their magic is very cognitive in focus.

 

I agree that shards have limitations on what they can do based on their intent, but we don't have any clear evidence they are limited by their physical or spiritual or cognitive nature. Allomancy and Feruchemy do certainly have a lot of spiritual and cognitive powers for supposedly physical shards say. They are, in fact, mostly not physical. Allomancy only has 4 physical powers. It is not that limited.

 

If you met him at a signing you could ask him.

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We don't know this explicitly. It may be that a focus is entirely determined by what planet you are on. Any shard that is on Nalthis may have a metal based magic system say. Anyway, we do not have nearly enough evidence to say that one shard is physical or spiritual based just on that. It could be as you say that shards are attracted to worlds that fit their magic systems, it could be that shardic qualities determine what focus a world has, but we don't have any evidence to say yet.

 

On Sel, wouldn't Devotion, love, be more of a spiritual attribute? An intent of our connections to others. Same with Dominion, about how a ruler relates to their subjects. But their magic is very cognitive in focus.

 

I agree that shards have limitations on what they can do based on their intent, but we don't have any clear evidence they are limited by their physical or spiritual or cognitive nature. Allomancy and Feruchemy do certainly have a lot of spiritual and cognitive powers for supposedly physical shards say. They are, in fact, mostly not physical. Allomancy only has 4 physical powers. It is not that limited.

 

If you met him at a signing you could ask him.

 

Well as I clarified in my post, I didn't mean the focus of a magic system, but more the form a Shard's Investiture takes in a magic system.  Ie metal on Scadrial, forms on Sel and Breath on Nalthis.  And as established by the very quote you linked above, we do explicitly know that the various magics are due to the natural state of a world and how it interacts with its Shards.  That's what I'm referring to when I speak of part of that natural state possibly being a world having a stronger presence in the Physical, Cognitive or Spiritual realm.  Apologies for the confusion if I was unclear.

 

[Hemalurgy], like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it

 

And again, specifics are key in any kind of theorizing.  I'm not saying that the Shards are drawn to worlds that fit their magic systems, because that makes the assumption that any of the Shards had a specific magic system or end result to their magic in mind.  And we don't have evidence of that.  What I'm suggesting is that all worlds exist to some degree or another in all three Realms, just as the Shards do, and that rather than existing equally in all three, both Shards and worlds have a stronger presence in one Realm than in the other two.   And as such, Shards are drawn to worlds that have the strongest presence in the Realm they themselves inhabit most fully, as this would enable the Shard to interact with that world most fully.  That's all.

 

So perhaps a more strongly Cognitive Shard could settle on a world that had a stronger presence in the Spiritual Realm than in the Cognitive....but that Shard wouldn't be able to interact with that world as fully as he would a world that was most strongly present in the Cognitive Realm, like himself.

 

As for the rest, I personally posit that Devotion would be a Cognitive Intent rather than a Spiritual.  Remember, Brandon said he went through a lot of synonyms before settling on Devotion, and kept us guessing as to the exact intent for a long time, because we were close, but not quite there.  Most guesses were along the lines of 'Love', and that's what he kept saying wasn't quite right.  Devotion isn't Love, explicitly.  There's a huge degree of overlap, but the precise word is critical when defining a Shard's Intent.  While Love might very well be a Spiritual Intent, Devotion is not, because devotion can not exist in a vaccuum.  By its very nature, devotion requires something to be devoted to.  Even used in the most generic sense, you are devoted to a cause, a principle or a person, you are not simply devoted.  Same with Dominion.  Dominion requires something to have dominion over, and the second you introduce someone else into the equation of an intent, you require thought to direct your intent and define its parameters.

 

Further, I would argue this is why Odium and Devotion are not perfect parallels.  Brandon has said that many of the Shards parallel others in some respects, but Ruin and Preservation are the only perfect pair.  This is because Odium and Devotion are not Love and Hate, which would be opposite ends of the spectrum, they're Odium and Devotion:  Directionless hate and directed love.  Odium I believe is a Spiritual Intent, innate and unreasoning hate that requires no cognition or focus, unlike Devotion.

 

Obviously there is overlap in all intents, because we know that the Shards have a Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual aspect.  They all exist in all three realms to some degree or another, and so do their Intents.

 

But I would argue that Physical Intents are those that directly affect the Physical world, like Ruin and Preservation.  Spiritual Intents are those that are innate and of the spirit, ie they exist regardless of anything else, like Endowment, which literally means a quality, talent, etc.  If you have an Endowment, its something you were gifted with, its not a result of something you did externally.  And finally Cognitive Intents would be those that require a direction, they're all about the individual's interaction with everything and everyone around them.

 

And again, no Shard exists solely in one Realm, so of course Allomancy and Feruchemy have Cognitive and Spiritual components and effects as well, just as all the magic systems do.  But of all the magic systems thus far, Allomancy and Feruchemy is still the most quantifiable and measurable of them, because it is so strongly Physical.  The region based magics of Sel are the most fluid and complex because they're so strongly Cognitive, and I do not think its a coincidence that Nalthis, which would be the most strongly Spiritual in its magic, is the only example we have thus far of human magics deliberately creating an object with sentience and its own innate Intent.  (I exclude Roshar from all this of course because there's still way too much we don't know about how its magic works to fuel speculation along these lines.  By most accounts, we've not even yet seen a third of the thirty magic systems Brandon's mentioned it contains, so...nuff said).  

 

 

Too long, didn't read version:

 

To use a real world parallel, think of the three natural states of matter (well, there are more than three, but I lack a better analogy).  There are gas giants, or predominantly gaseous worlds.  There are worlds that are predominantly liquid, methane oceans, etc.  And there are worlds that are predominantly rock.  Our own world exists in all three states, with a rocky crust, liquid oceans and gaseous atmosphere, all of which are necessary for life, but they are not equal.  If in the three natural stages of magic in the cosmere, the natural state of a planet is mostly Physical, all Shardic interactions with that world will manifest as Physical Investiture, and the most interactions will be available to Shards with Physical Intents.

Edited by ROSHtafARian
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Allomancy and Feruchemy were originally planned separately. I linked them together into this book when I realized that the 'focus' items that could store attributes could be metal, and therefore work wonderfully with the Mistborn book I was planning.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727

 

Metals are the focus of Scadrial, commands are the focus of Nalthis, symbols are the focus of Sel.

 

And as such, Shards are drawn to worlds that have the strongest presence in the Realm they themselves inhabit most fully, as this would enable the Shard to interact with that world most fully.  That's all.

 

 

I get that. I'm just not sure if it's true.

 

As for the rest, I personally posit that Devotion would be a Cognitive Intent rather than a Spiritual.  Remember, Brandon said he went through a lot of synonyms before settling on Devotion, and kept us guessing as to the exact intent for a long time, because we were close, but not quite there.  Most guesses were along the lines of 'Love', and that's what he kept saying wasn't quite right.  Devotion isn't Love, explicitly.  There's a huge degree of overlap, but the precise word is critical when defining a Shard's Intent.  While Love might very well be a Spiritual Intent, Devotion is not, because devotion can not exist in a vaccuum.  By its very nature, devotion requires something to be devoted to.  Even used in the most generic sense, you are devoted to a cause, a principle or a person, you are not simply devoted.  Same with Dominion.  Dominion requires something to have dominion over, and the second you introduce someone else into the equation of an intent, you require thought to direct your intent and define its parameters.

 

Love can't exist in a vacuum either. Love requires other people around you to love. Ruin can't exist in a vacuum, nor can Preservation or any other Shard. They all require an object to do their intent to.

 

You're not presenting me a particularly convincing argument for Devotion and Dominion being cognitive. Since the spiritual realm is, explicitly, according to Shai, our connection to others, it requires other people and can't exist in a vacuum. Devotion is very much a connection to others.

Shai-

 

“All things exist in three Realms, Gaotona. Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual. The Physical is what we feel, what is before us. The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it views itself. The Spiritual Realm contains an object’s soul—its essence—as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it.”

 

Your definition of the realms doesn't seem to be based on this.

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http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727

 

Metals are the focus of Scadrial, commands are the focus of Nalthis, symbols are the focus of Sel.

 

 

 

I get that. I'm just not sure if it's true.

 

 

Love can't exist in a vacuum either. Love requires other people around you to love. Ruin can't exist in a vacuum, nor can Preservation or any other Shard. They all require an object to do their intent to.

 

You're not presenting me a particularly convincing argument for Devotion and Dominion being cognitive. Since the spiritual realm is, explicitly, according to Shai, our connection to others, it requires other people and can't exist in a vacuum. Devotion is very much a connection to others.

Shai-

 

 

Your definition of the realms doesn't seem to be based on this.

 

Fair enough.  The vaccuum line wasn't the best analogy.  Still, by Shai's definition of the Realms, Ruin and Preservation are still very much primarily Physical, and Endowment is very much pertaining to the soul or the essence.  Devotion and Dominion, I argue then, are more cognitive because they rely heavily on parameters set by perception.

 

You're correct in that all Shards need something to apply their Intent to, but Devotion and Dominion are the Shards that require context to that application.  

 

Here, let me try a Hypothetical Thought Experiment of Shardic Intent, lol:  And I'll use the vaccuum properly this time.

 

Okay.  Imagine if you made Ruin and Preservation manifest in human bodies and strip them of all their powers, and stick them in a bubble in the vaccuum of space with just one other person, a random human.  Now sit back and watch them act in pursuit of their Intents.  They could do that.  Ruin would act to ruin or destroy that person and Preservation would act to preserve them, even if all they had to make use of was their own bodies.  And its the physical acts that are significant there, because that's how they interact with the world.  There are direct, physical interactions they can make with the world that convey their Intents, because their Intents have physical weight and meaning.  If you act to preserve something, you take a specific physical action that has meaning in and of itself, that says 'I am trying to preserve this.'  While you could take a dozen different actions in pursuit of preserving that person, it makes no difference and needs no context.  Each action would be a direct physical manifestation of the intent to preserve, and the subsequent preservation of the person would speak for itself.  This is why Ruin and Preservation are Physical Intents, because the physical is the most important part of those Intents.  Without taking physical acts to preserve, an innate sense of preservation is meaningless.  Without taking physical acts to ruin, no cognitive view or perception of ruin will change anything.

 

Now imagine the same thing with Endowment.  It doesn't work the same way, because to act in pursuit of his/her Intent, Endowment needs to bestow something.  The physical component of that intent is the act of actually giving or bestowing something on someone...without the thing that's bestowed, the act and the intent have no meaning.  Problem is, remember Endowment's in this bubble in the vaccuum of space with just one other person, the recipient of their gift.  Meaning, Endowment can only gift the recipient with something that comes directly from them, something innate.  This is why Endowment is a Spiritual Intent, because the Spiritual component, that something innate, is the most important part of that Intent.  There can be no act of giving or perception of a gift without something to give, meaning that in the absence of anything else to give or anything else to give the perception of having gifted.....in that situation, Endowment's essence, anything and everything that makes it who and what it is, that's the most important part of that Intent.....because to give something, you first have to have something to give.

 

Now imagine Devotion in that bubble, with nothing else but the person you originally placed in there.  Strip away everything else.  Devotion can't be a Physical Intent, because there's no action she can take that directly conveys the Intent of Devotion.  There are a thousand different ways you can show devotion to someone, but there's no action that specifically conveys devotion in and of itself....actions only convey devotion because of the meaning a person has ascribed to those actions in their thoughts.  If Ruin strangles the person in his bubble, there's a direct end result that gives meaning and weight to that action, the person dies.  If Devotion kneels in her bubble, that act by itself is meaningless.  It requires her perception of kneeling as a sign of devotion, or the perception of such by the person she's kneeling to - in order for that act to be in pursuit of her Intent.  And Devotion can't be a Spiritual Intent, because it isn't innate, its not a mindless emotion you're born with and aim at everything around you in equal measure.  Devotion needs a target, and it doesn't exist without the conscious choice to devote yourself to a person or cause or idea.  Its that choice and adherence to that choice that gives your actions weight and meaning.  So floating in the void in her bubble with just one other person, Devotion isn't acting in pursuit of her Intent until she and/or the other person perceives that person as the object of her devotion.

 

Same with Dominion.  There's no one action that conveys physical dominion over the other person in that bubble, no one action that ends with the ultimate result of him having Dominion over the human, because what does that even mean?  Dominion could end up with the person in a stranglehold....but they'll stay in that position until that person interprets that act or position as meaning Dominion has power over him.  Similarly, can't be a Spiritual Intent, because manifested in a human body stripped of his powers and stuck in that bubble with nothing else in there but the other human, there's nothing innate in either of them that recognizes Dominion as having power over the other person.  With both Devotion and Dominion, the perception of the connection between the person and the Shard is ultimately what conveys the Shard's Intent.

Edited by ROSHtafARian
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I agree with Ruin, Preservation, and Endowment.

 

With Devotion, could she not simply grant the person her devotion? Devote herself to their protection and do whatever is necessary to protect them, ? She need not demonstrate her intent to the person. Perhaps Devotion would appear, see Dominion also in that bubble and, realizing that Dominion would slay the person, she would hurl herself and Dominion out of the bubble to protect the person. The person would have no idea what had happened- because devotion requires no witness. It is an innate quality of the heart. You do not devote yourself to a principle so people will see you as a better person. You do what needs to be done.

 

But perhaps as she left, her eyes would cross with the person's eyes. He would feel a deep and powerful sense of love, of connection. He would know that she was doing this for him, that he and all humans were special. That she had devoted herself to his protection. Nothing rational in his mind could explain it. But he'd feel it.

 

because it isn't innate, its not a mindless emotion you're born with and aim at everything around you in equal measure.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape

 

Agape (/ˈæɡəp/[1] or /əˈɡɑːp/; Classical Greek: ἀγάπη, agápē; Modern Greek: αγάπη IPA: [aˈɣapi]) is one of the Koine Greek words translated into English as love, one which became particularly appropriated in Christian theology as the love of God or Christ for humankind. In the New Testament, it refers to the covenant love of God for humans, as well as the human reciprocal love for God; the term necessarily extends to the love of one’s fellow man.[2] Many have thought that this word represents divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love.

 

She is acting in pursuit of her intent, in her mind. She would show it in her behaviour, in her devotion to their good health. Preservation, likewise, wouldn't be able to show it in more than behaviour until a situation arose where he could do something.

 

 Devotion needs a target, and it doesn't exist without the conscious choice to devote yourself to a person or cause or idea.

 

This isn't a legitimate distinction between the shards. All of them need to make conscious choices to do things. Ruin has to consciously chose things to ruin, Preservation has to chose things to preserve. They are all selective in their choices. None target everything.

 

Same with Dominion.  There's no one action that conveys physical dominion over the other person in that bubble, no one action that ends with the ultimate result of him having Dominion over the human, because what does that even mean?

 

Dominion stared at the human.

 

"Kneel. For I am your god. And I deserve your devotion."

 

Their eyes would meet. The human would feel that Dominion was innately superior. Perhaps he would be unsure for a moment, but he would feel domination.

 

"I have a plan to get us out of here. Obey me, and you might just survive."

 

Recognising authority, the human would obey this confident and powerful being. But still he was unsure.

 

"Kneel before me. I said... kneel! Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It's the unspoken truth of humanity that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power. For identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel."

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A very intriguing theory Rosh. I have never thought of shards as having imbalances between the three realms since I assumed they are almost purely spiritual objects since they require a human intellect and a physical focus to even work properly. Definitely something to watch for in future books to see if we can firmly classify Shards into realm-centric categories. I hope this theory proves to be correct and each Shard does have an inclination toward one of the three Realms. 
 
As for focus, I strongly disagree. Each planet seems to have a very PHYSICAL focus despite which realm the Shardic Intent leans toward. And each magic system can be used to access powers from all three realms and is not usually restricted by the Shard's Intent.
 

Metals are the focus of Scadrial, commands are the focus of Nalthis, symbols are the focus of Sel.

I don't think this is right. My understanding could be flawed, but I believe all Shards use a Physical Focus: 
 
Magic requires contribution from each of the three realms to work: Physical Focus, Spiritual Investiture, and Cognitive Activation/Control. 
 
On Scadrial, physical focus = metal, Investiture = Ruin and/or Preservation, and Cognitive = burning the metal (and potentially shaping the effect)
 
On Nalthis I personally think the BioChromatic Aura is the physical focus and forms a wave pattern similar to the "Aon" created by atomic resonance on Scadrial. Some people think the color that gets leached to create Biochroma is the focus. Either way, color is a physical thing and works well as a physical focus. Breath = spiritual investiture,  and the Commands are Cognitive Control.
 
This quote is one of the reasons I think this. 

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.”   Source

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On Nalthis I personally think the BioChromatic Aura is the physical focus and forms a wave pattern similar to the "Aon" created by atomic resonance on Scadrial. Some people think the color that gets leached to create Biochroma is the focus. Either way, color is a physical thing and works well as a physical focus. Breath = spiritual investiture,  and the Commands are Cognitive Control.

 

The focus for Awakening is the Commands not BioChromatic Aura.  Foci can be Cognitive, and presumably Spiritual, in nature as well as Physical.  (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Awakening)

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Also, I just want to clarify again that I don't believe any longer that the focus of a world's magic system is determined by this theory, but rather the form a Shard's investiture takes on a given planet.  So Scadrial --> physical --> metals, Sel -->cognitive-->perceived forms, Nalthis-->spiritual-->Breath.

 

For what its worth, I asked Brandon in a Q and A last year if the Shards were separated into groupings or a classification of some kind.  He said 'Good question, RAFO,' which is when I started thinking along these lines.  Especially when he later answered someone else that no, the Shards did not separate into four classifications like the Allomantic table.  Another thing I noted was he answered this at one point:

 

Are Shards all paired? Does Endowment have a counterpart?

BRANDON SANDERSON

RAFO. Also, yes and no. Not all Shards have perfect counterparts like Ruin and Preservation.

 

Which to me seemed to imply that yes, Shards are all paired, but no, not with perfect counterparts.  Alternatively, depending on which question he was actually answering first, he could have been saying Endowment has a counterpart, and no, not all shards are paired.  I lean towards the former rather than the latter personally.

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@ WeiryWriter: The stub for Command on Coppermind says it needs urgent attention and I think it is incorrect about the true nature of the Focus for Awakening. I could certainly be wrong, but have been spending quite a lot of time researching Focus recently and don't see any strong evidence proving the Command to be the focus. 

 

@ Rosh: I also think the shards are grouped and somehow separated with counterbalanced attributes. Will be fun to see where that plays out. And just think, only a couple dozen more books to go before we find out!

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@ WeiryWriter: The stub for Command on Coppermind says it needs urgent attention and I think it is incorrect about the true nature of the Focus for Awakening. I could certainly be wrong, but have been spending quite a lot of time researching Focus recently and don't see any strong evidence proving the Command to be the focus.

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/662-focuses-on-roshar/

Some backstory: In my own discussion with Brandon (from 2009, I believe), he said that Aons are the focuses for AonDor, metal is the focus for the Metallic Arts. Those are sort of no-brainers. But then he surprised me, and said that the Commands are the focus in Warbreaker. At the time, I had guessed color, so that revelation blindsided me.

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@ WeiryWriter: The stub for Command on Coppermind says it needs urgent attention and I think it is incorrect about the true nature of the Focus for Awakening. I could certainly be wrong, but have been spending quite a lot of time researching Focus recently and don't see any strong evidence proving the Command to be the focus.

 

It is not mistaken, Commands are the focus for Awakening. 

 

"The Command is a focus..."

(http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/398/Warbreaker-Chapter-Twenty-One)

 

Well, Brandon told me that Commands are indeed the focus, actually - Chaos

(http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2679-shardic-focus-theory/?p=51297)

 

Edit: Ninja'd by Phantom...

Edited by WeiryWriter
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@ WeiryWriter: The stub for Command on Coppermind says it needs urgent attention and I think it is incorrect about the true nature of the Focus for Awakening. I could certainly be wrong, but have been spending quite a lot of time researching Focus recently and don't see any strong evidence proving the Command to be the focus.

The coppermind now has a reference to the Annotation that provides that tidbit:

The Command is a focus, the spoken words an important part of the process, but the real trick is getting the right mental picture.

EDIT: ninajed by both of you ¬.¬
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At the time, I had guessed color, so that revelation blindsided me.

Blindsiding me too right now. The Command is a focus, but he doesn't specify that Color is not a focus as well. Could he be saying there is both a cognitive AND a physical focus for each use of magic?

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Blindsiding me too right now. The Command is a focus, but he doesn't specify that Color is not a focus as well. Could he be saying there is both a cognitive AND a physical focus for each use of magic?

 

Seems unnecessarily complicated.  As it stands, Awakening is:

 

Breath + Command + Color

Investiture + Focus + Fuel

Spiritual + Cognitive + Physical

 

Pretty complete and elegant in its simplicity when broken down that way, I think.

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Also, I just want to clarify again that I don't believe any longer that the focus of a world's magic system is determined by this theory, but rather the form a Shard's investiture takes on a given planet.  So Scadrial --> physical --> metals, Sel -->cognitive-->perceived forms, Nalthis-->spiritual-->Breath.

 

The metals on Scadrial are the focus of the world's magic system, likewise with the forms on Sel. Breaths are what is controlled by your power on Nalthis.

 

Incidentally, I believe it has been confirmed reasonably well that body parts and gemstones are focuses on Roshar.

 

It's an important concept. Corruption of the focus (impure metals, earthquake in sel) are major themes in his book.

 

For what its worth, I asked Brandon in a Q and A last year if the Shards were separated into groupings or a classification of some kind.  He said 'Good question, RAFO,' which is when I started thinking along these lines.  Especially when he later answered someone else that no, the Shards did not separate into four classifications like the Allomantic table.  Another thing I noted was he answered this at one point:

 

 

Which to me seemed to imply that yes, Shards are all paired, but no, not with perfect counterparts.  Alternatively, depending on which question he was actually answering first, he could have been saying Endowment has a counterpart, and no, not all shards are paired.  I lean towards the former rather than the latter personally.

 

It is a good question, and there probably is some sort of grouping that the shards have. It is just unrelated to their focus, or 'forms' if you prefer that word.

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The metals on Scadrial are the focus of the world's magic system, likewise with the forms on Sel. Breaths are what is controlled by your power on Nalthis.

 

Incidentally, I believe it has been confirmed reasonably well that body parts and gemstones are focuses on Roshar.

 

It's an important concept. Corruption of the focus (impure metals, earthquake in sel) are major themes in his book.

 

 

It is a good question, and there probably is some sort of grouping that the shards have. It is just unrelated to their focus, or 'forms' if you prefer that word.

 

Nepene, you keep correcting me about the focuses, and I keep telling you, they're not what I'm talking about.  I don't know how I can be any clearer.  The focus of magic on Nalthis is the Commands.  The form Endowment's direct Investiture takes is Breath.  I'm talking about the latter, not the former.  They are not the same thing.  

Edited by ROSHtafARian
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I would say that this theory could still hold water if you swapped Sel and its Shards to be Spiritual. Connections to each other in Devotion and Dominion, represented magically through connection to your land and cultural identity (as speculated by KChan).

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Nepene, you keep correcting me about the focuses, and I keep telling you, they're not what I'm talking about.  I don't know how I can be any clearer.  The focus of magic on Nalthis is the Commands.  The form Endowment's direct Investiture takes is Breath.  I'm talking about the latter, not the former.  They are not the same thing.  

You keep implying that metals aren't a focus.

 

You can be clearer by not saying "Scadrial --> physical --> metals" and then saying you understand that metals aren't a focus. Those two statements are contradictory. Either metals are a focus, or they are not.

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