Reputation Reform?

[Comatose]

*Comatose follows Zas's suit (see what I did there?) and takes off his admin hat*

 

I'll leave an in depth discussion on the rep system for someone else, since that's not really my area.  I would like to try put some things in perspective though.

 

I understand that down-votes can hurt people's feelings, and that some of you feel the need to know why you get down-voted, but I also think it's important to remember that the rep system is just a small part of 17th Shard as a whole.  You may notice your rep going up and down, but for most people on the boards, the general trend seems to be up much more than down.  Generally, the more people post, the more up-votes they get.  While some might get more downvotes than others, the changes in rep that I've seen haven't been too drastic, especially when compared to positive rep changes.  There are situations where mass downvoting occurs, but on the whole this seems to be the exception rather than the rule.  I'd advise people, no matter what happens to the rep system in future versions of 17th Shard, to focus on the good instead of the bad.  Why fixate on one downvote that might have been accidental, or due to an opinion you don't share, when you could just focus on the overall growth of the community, and on the generally positive use of the system.  When you have literally hundreds of up-votes affirming you, why do a couple dozen downvotes matter so much?  Personally, I don't really fixate on the ebbs and flows of reputation.  I notice when I go up a title, and think 'that's cool', or sometimes I will pause and check how far away I am from the next one if it has been a while, but fixating on the reasons behind every single individual up or down vote seems a tad time consuming to me.  I don't mean to offend anyone, or belittle any feelings that have been hurt, but I do think it is important to keep things in perspective and not ignore a lot of good by fixating on a small amount of bad.  

 

I totally get the concern about offending people and not knowing it.  I'm often self conscious about the things I post online, and worry that some might find it offensive.  On this point, remember that you are not here alone.  If you are worried about a post that has recieved a downvote, ask a friend to read it over for you, or bring it to the attention of a staff member.  Also, take a look at how other people are responding to it, both in votes, and in their responses.  While it's true a single downvote might have been caused by an unintended slight, if it truly harmed someone, my hope would be that they bring it to the staff, or say something about how the post made them feel.  At the end of the day, you have to trust your own instincts, and the instincts of the community as a whole, rather than the whims of individuals whose motivations you have no way of knowing.  

 

Others have brought up that Rep is an important marker of contributions to the site.  While this is true, I would emphasize that it is a marker of one's contribution, not the marker.  There's also post count, displaying prominent theories in signatures, friendships, and, of course, the content of the posts themselves.  Whether or not your post has -1 rep, or 50 rep, you still made it.  Whatever it's approval rating, you took the time to write something, put it together, and send it out to the internet for people to read.  I think those words and paragraphs should count for something.  If you feel like the rep system is not an adequate representation of your contribution to the site, focus on the many other ways your work can be recognized.  To me, an affirmative comment or respectful debate in a thread is worth a lot more than a few upvotes.  Of course, I can't speak for everyone, and I'm not saying you should not pay any attention to your reputation.  Just remember to keep things in perspective.

 

I know I haven't answered all the point that were made here, but I'll leave that to others who can answer them better.  I just wanted to remind everyone to see the big picture.   

[+Slowswift]

To me, an affirmative comment or respectful debate in a thread is worth a lot more than a few upvotes.  

 

YES. So much yes. The internet is very much lacking in intelligent debate.

[Turos]

YES. So much yes. The internet is very much lacking in intelligent debate.

 

You've been hanging around Wit?

[+Slowswift]

You've been hanging around Wit?

 

Maybe a bit too much. But hey, he is best character.

[Mistdork]

Ugh, I think that the best way to get rid of misplaced/accidental downvotes might be to somehow give a "warning" when you try to downvote a member. That way, if you're scrolling through the forum on a touchphone, tablet, or kindle fire, you will be informed that you almost accidentally downvoted someone (that's if this works on phones, I don't know if it can). Such a "defense mechanism" against accidental downvoting could also act as a reminder that downvoting others can sometimes be hurtful and done without considering their feelings. It can protect users from malicious downvoting, and act as a member's conscious to make them think before they downvote while still staying anonymous and keeping most of the current system in tact...

 

In theory, I mean, but I don't know if it's possible to provide a warning on downvotes in practice (and it might get annoying, too).

Edited June 18, 2015 by Nymp

[Windrunner]

With the new version of IPB, it will be possible to cancel upvotes and downvotes, solving the problem of accidentally hitting one of those buttons once and for all.

[maxal]

Ugh, I think that the best way to get rid of misplaced/accidental downvotes might be to somehow give a "warning" when you try to downvote a member. That way, if you're scrolling through the forum on touchphone, tablet, or kindle fire, you will be informed that you almost accidentally downvoted someone (that's if this works on phones, I don't know if it can). Such a "defense mechanism" against accidental downvoting could also act as a reminder that downvoting others can sometimes be hurtful and done without considering their feelings. It can protect users from malicious downvoting, and act as a member's conscious to make them think before they downvote while still staying anonymous and keeping most of the current system in tact...

 

In theory, I mean, but I don't know if it's possible to provide a warning on downvotes in practice (and it might get annoying, too).

 

I like the idea of a warning before downvoting. The warning could be accompanied by a disclaimer on how downvotes are to be used for posts purposefully rude, aggressive and offending, but not to express a disagreement. It could also state if you believe one forumer is crossing the line too often, to communicate with the moderation/admin team to solve the issue.

 

It should discouraged many unwarranted downvotes.

[Windrunner]

In my personal opinion, (not the staff's) that's kind of missing the point though. Members have the power to upvote and downvote as they please. As long as they are not abusing that privilege by targeting someone or a certain group, they get to decide what specifically they use their voting power for. A lot of times being offended and disagreeing go hand in hand, but not always. There's no specific criteria for when someone is or is not allowed to downvote.

I realize that downvotes can be hurtful and you may wonder what you did wrong. However at the end of the day, it's really just a number. I've gotten downvotes for things I was surprised about. But you can't please everyone, and if you find yourself extremely upset about a handful of downvotes, I'd personally recommend that you reevaluate how much value you put in downvotes. It's just not that big a deal.

If something is actually seriously offensive or downvote abuse is occurring it's the work of the moment to contact the staff. Addressing a point that came up earlier, making voting public does not help us track abuse easier, because admins can already determine who does the voting without trouble. And there has been no trouble handling problems like that, so I don't see that as being a point in favor of removing anonymity in the voting.

[Mistdork]

Agreed, and I think that having the ability to "cancel" (is this more like canceling or undoing?) is satisfactory to me. I figure if something was done in "anger" most people would come back later and fix it...(or I'm an idealist, I probably am, oh well!)

 

(But if you HAD a warning, you could always make it, "Remember, Sazed is watching", though Harmony wouldn't really care...for the most part)...xD

[+Wax]

The thing is, that's the point of the rep system. Upvote things you agree with and/or like, downvote things you disagree with and/or don't like. It's not a Like system such as the one Facebook employs, it's a reputation system. A downvote does not necessarily mean the person wanted to attack you, that's just the stigma that has become attached to the system.

 

My personal opinion is to keep the system anonymous. Though I do believe our current user base is kind enough and smart enough to not abuse a non-anonymous system, we are an ever growing community. An anonymous system will likely be a necessity eventually, so I don't feel there is a reason compelling enough to make the change worthwhile.

 

That being said, I do believe adding a quick form of why a downvote is being cast should be added, for more reasons than those stated above. Though I don't place much importance or value in my reputation number, knowing whether I've offended someone is very important to me. I love this community and everyone in it, and as such I want to respect everyone here. Knowing what I've said that offended you allows me to avoid doing so in the future. It also allows me to potentially explain myself too, as perhaps it was a mere misunderstanding, because I'm not as eloquent with words as Kobold. I don't care about my rep count decreasing by one. I care about you, and how I've hurt you, and how I can avoid doing so in the future.

 

I agree that the upvote and downvote is like a facebook "like" or "dislike".

 

Frankly, I am surprised that people care so much if they get a downvote.  I downvoted 1 post, coz I disagreed with it, but to take it as personal is waay over the top.

 

I wouldn't take it personally if any one of you downvoted me.  The upvote and the downvotes aren't a reflection on the poster, but the actual post.  Let's just say for example, you've won the Nobel peace prize, and then you got a downvote here - does it mean you are diminished as a person?  I think not.

 

I would agree to have it non-anonymous.  I think most times people are giving upvotes and it's always great to recognise and meet people who appreciate me.  VIce verca - If people don't like what I've posted, I might give some thought to what I've posted and reconsider.

Edited June 19, 2015 by axcellence

[FeatherWriter]

*takes off her mod hat too*

 

I also like the anonymous downvote upvote system, and I think some of the other supporters have talked about it being a good general consensus of how the fandom feels about a certain post. However, I also like that there isn't a "right" or wrong way to use them. I've seen some people talk about "you should only use downvotes for certain things" but, there aren't any hard and fast rules about what deserves a downvote and what does not.

 

Aside from stalking a user's posts and downvoting them all until you hit the limit, which is definitely downvote abuse and should be reported, you're allowed to downvote posts for any reason you'd like. Maybe you think it's harsh, or rude, or inappropriate. Okay, you can downvote that -- though remember that if something is breaking the rules, that's what the "Report" button is for rather than the downvote button. Downvotes can be "I disagree with your opinion" if you want them to be. Downvotes can be for petty reasons too, though of course downvoting people for superficial reasons is pretty mean and I'd hope people are being considerate. You can do it though, it's not breaking the rules.

 

I know, I personally used to a lot more hesitant about downvoting. I pretty much never used them ever. As I became a more active poster, however, and interacted with more people on the site -- especially other friends who used the site -- I started downvoting where I felt it was warranted. If I didn't like the way a post was assuming things or maybe I just didn't like the person's opinion to the point of actively being upset. If a post made me angry or hurt, even if it didn't break rules, I'd downvote it. To me, a downvote tells the poster "Hey, a user didn't like what you just said!" If I really didn't like something, the downvotes let me say that.

 

Now, I try not to hit and run. If I'm going to use a downvote on a discussion, I'll try to respond respectfully to it as well in a reply. I don't always say "Hey, I downvoted you, and it was for this reason!" but I'll usually explain that I disagree with what they said and try to have a polite discussion. Sometimes if someone is really freaking out about getting a downvote and it was me, I'll send a private message explaining, but I usually don't. I don't necessarily think it's necessary, especially if I'm in a discussion in public already.

[maxal]

...

 

This highlights exactly why I despise downvotes and I wish for a better control. I understand I seem to be in the minority, but downvotes are more hurtful than a dissident opinion, so to read the confirmation posters do indeed use the button to express their disagreements just confirms my suspicions about the system. 

 

A few days ago, I wrote I did not think Shallarin was ship with much possibilities of happening. I got downvoted for it. Why? The only reasonable reason was someone disagreed with me as the post was comprised of two sentences, was not aggressive nor judgmental. Can't I express a pure opinion without getting a downvote? Should I have kept quiet about it? Should I just simply not post on topics where I know for sure others will disagree to avoid the petty downvotes?  I can't fathom anyone could have been offended by a simple two liners post. This post did not deserve a downvote: there is no world where a downvote was warranted, but still it happened. That's just one example per many. It happens to be the latest one. 

 

Even when I got angry at certain responses I received, I never ever used the downvote button as I strongly stand against it, except for the rare case where I believe the interlocutors crossed the line and even then I am reluctant to use the downvote. If I disagree with an opinion, the interlocutor will know about it, I do not need to enforce the downvote button. I am already probably hurting their feelings for strongly disagreeing, why should I need to stampede on it by downvoting it? Besides, how interesting is a discussing where everyone is just furiously pressing the downvote button? How inviting is it? It isn't. Not at all. In fact, it is so uninviting that each time it happens, other forumers steer away from it.

 

Should I thus actively start to downvote every single posts I disagree with? Why should I be the only idiot person standing on my side of the fence and thinking: "I will not downvote this, even if it makes me very angry, because I am not a mean person and I perceive downvotes as mean." This post makes me feel like the forum's fool for rampaging everywhere and claiming the downvotes should NOT be use to express a mere disagreement.

 

Downvotes have hurt me in the past, a lot, not those I felt I deserved, but those I felt were unwarranted and petty. I wish the admin would clarify the situation over the downvotes. What are their purposes? Are meant to express a mere disagreement or are they to be reserved for out-of-boundaries posts? If it is the former, then I will bow my head down, never raise the issue again, but I will never be comfortable over the downvotes.

[Kobold King]

This highlights exactly why I despise downvotes and I wish for a better control. I understand I seem to be in the minority, but downvotes are more hurtful than a dissident opinion, so to read the confirmation posters do indeed use the button to express their disagreements just confirms my suspicions about the system. 

 

I agree most heartily with this opinion. I don't downvote people who disagree with me. In fact, if they phrase their arguments well I usually upvote them. I've upvoted a lot of posts on this very thread that I vehemently disagree with, as a matter of fact.

 

Because of how the system is set up, a downvote is very literally a subtraction from a member. A downvote says "I do not appreciate having this on the forum," quite loudly and clearly.

 

And forgive me for saying, that is awful. I value the people who hold dissident opinions from myself. I'm glad they're on the forum. I encourage them to continue arguing so long as they're civil and rational, and attaching a red badge of shame to everything I disagree with goes against every rule of conduct that I hold dear.

 

Essentially, disagreement downvotes to me seem the equivalent of yelling "Shut your mouth! No one wants to hear what you have to say!" at someone. A disagreement downvote doesn't foster a proper conversation. It fosters only bitterness and a system where only majority opinions are allowed to be expressed.

[FeatherWriter]

WARNING: THIS POST GOT LONG

 

I wish the admin would clarify the situation over the downvotes. What are their purposes? Are meant to express a mere disagreement or are they to be reserved for out-of-boundaries posts? If it is the former, then I will bow my head down, never raise the issue again, but I will never be comfortable over the downvotes.

 

Alright, I'll throw the mod hat on for a sec. Admins have already addressed this in site rules. Quote from the rules post: 

Reputation Points

On the bottom right of topics, posts, and comments, you’ll see a + and - button. Here, you can upvote or downvote a post in the site’s reputation system. Think of these as ways you can regulate content as good or bad. If you think something is awesome, upvote them! And if you thought something was dumb, don’t troll a person (more on that in the rules section), but you could always downvote them.

Reputation points are carried throughout the site and are displayed whenever make a post. When you give out reputation, it’s completely anonymous, so feel free to let your voice be heard!

Also, it is plain fun to see who can amass the most reputation points.

 

"Rep is anonymous, feel free to use it. Don't be a troll." Those are your site rules in regards to downvotes. After that, your personal choice to use or not use them is just that: personal. The thing to remember is that if someone is breaking the rules that needs to be reported,  rather than downvoted. (I mean, if it's bad, you can downvote them too, but please report any breaches in site etiquette.)

 

If you think downvotes are mean and don't want to use them, alright! I think that's really nice of you and you probably care a lot about not hurting people's feelings. If you're a person who wants to use rep as a policing system to encourage some posts and discourage others, okay that's fine too. If you're downvoting people spitefully because you hate them, then that's not okay and you should stop that.

 

(mod hat off)

 

I get downvoted quite a bit. It happens. I mean, I can see that my post above there was downvoted (because it shows up in my rep screen, even though it's at zero right now). I mean, obviously that's okay. I expected it even. I can't exactly say "yes you can downvote people you disagree with" and then get upset that someone downvoted me for disagreeing with me. Though I am amused by how meta that thought is. 

 

For the most part, I understand when I get downvoted. Usually I'm thinking as I type the post out: "Okay, I feel like people might dislike this, but I feel like it needs to be said." When the downvotes come, okay. That's the price I paid for having an unpopular opinion, and I'll take them. All part of the discussion process. If I'm getting a really high amount of downvotes that tells me "oh, maybe I overstepped and need to apolgize and back off." But one or two? That just shows me people read it, honestly. 

 

I value the people who hold dissident opinions from myself. I'm glad they're on the forum. I encourage them to continue arguing so long as they're civil and rational.

 

(...)

 

It fosters only bitterness and a system where only majority opinions are allowed to be expressed.

 

I agree with the former, and disagree with the latter. If people disagree with what I say, they should be able to express that, I think. If I'm posting a minority opinion, then sure, maybe downvotes will come, but that's not a bad thing. It just shows me that there's people who disagree. Downvotes, for the most part, I think are used as a method of disagreement. At least, that's how I interpret them when they're used against me.

 

If something needs to be said, I'm willing to take the downvotes for it. If I think it's not worth starting a disagreement, then I'll hold off and not post it. I don't need my posts to be universally agreed with or even universally liked. I don't think that's realistic or feasable. I don't take getting downvoted to heart. If you express an opinion, someone's probably going to disagree with you. Sometimes they write that out in a response. Sometimes they just downvote you. I don't follow the same logic of, "people who disagree with me are welcome, but only if they don't use this one button to do it."

 

To me, getting a downvote is the same as getting a reply where someone says "actually, I disagree and think you're wrong."

 

Sometimes they just don't want to type that out. Maybe all they felt they needed to convey was "I disagree and think you're wrong." Or maybe this person is saying "what you wrote hurt me and made me upset, but I don't want to reveal that publically by writing a reply." I've had friends who say "This thread is really bothering me, but I don't want to start a thing with a response. I'll just downvote to let them know I disagree." 

 

Personal philosophy: I hardly ever use downvotes. They're really only for when a post actually upsets me. Unless I feel like someone's saying things that are hurtful (even unintentionally) and out of line, I'll just use a reply. Sometimes though, I do feel the need to hit that button. I'll admit that. Like the rules said, the system was made to be used and sometimes people say things on the site that I really wish they wouldn't. It's not a substitute for a discussion, but it's another mode of reply. 

 

Rep is just a number. It goes up, and it goes down. I like getting upvotes because it says people think I'm right or that they appreciated what I added. Downvotes say that there's people who don't like what I'm saying. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop saying it, just because someone disliked it. If it needed to be said, it needed to be said, and I'm gonna probably stand behind what I said, but it's good to see that there's people who don't agree. If I'm getting a bunch of downvotes, then that shows me I did something wrong and need to tone it back. 

[RenegadeShroom]

I disagree with the idea that reputation is just a number. I do consider it trivial, effectively meaningless, especially on a personal basis, but that's because I've only ever had upvotes anywhere. And I'm certain that I only have upvotes on another forum because they have no downvotes over there -- which makes the already trivial rep system even more pointless, to be honest.

 

The point, though, is that while many people do consider it just a number that goes up or down, for many people it can be hurtful and upsetting! That's totally fine, what I'm saying is that you can't help how you react to this emotionally. It's easy to rationally say, "yeah, okay, it's just a number, whatever", but when negativity is directed at you, people have a tendency to linger on that longer than positivity. It sucks! You can't just... choose not to feel bad, you know? 

 

So I think that should be a point of consideration here. Regardless, I do think that downvotes should remain anonymous, for various reasons which have been said here already far better than I could have.

[+Wax]

Well, another idea can be to just get rid of the "downvote"?

 

Just have upvotes - you either get "likes" or you get an effective no comment.

 

If we can say nothing positive, we won't say negative as well, that way?

[skaa]

I won't partake in the debate about anonymous rep votes, but I do have a rep-related request:

 

Is it possible to change the ordering of posts in the Reputation tab from "Most recent post first" to "Most recently upvoted/downvoted post first"? So when an old post gets upvoted/downvoted, it would rise to the top of the list.

 

This would be useful to me because occasionally I wish to check which post caused the latest change in my rep points. If the particular post is old, it will be impossible to find it under all the newer posts that have been voted on.

 

I know this isn't a common problem (I guess I'm particularly prone because I link to a lot of old threads in my sig), but it would still be nice to know which of my old threads are being rediscovered and are still making people happy (or angry).

 

I have no experience with IPB code so I don't know how easy it is to implement this idea (are voting timestamps being stored at all?), but what do you guys think? Is it worth implementing?

[FeatherWriter]

@Shroom - Much as it pains me to agree with my sworn nemesis, you're right about me probably being too callous and expecting others to be the same. I'm pretty thick skinned when it comes to disagreements, but you're right, not everyone is.

I guess what I was trying to encourage was just... For the people who get really upset when they're downvoted, try to remember that it's not always meant to be mean. I saw someone describe downvotes as "getting a rock thrown at you out of nowhere" but I think when people are giving downvotes, they aren't trying to their rocks. I think the people who use downvotes are the ones who don't see them as really mean, just disagreement.

@axcellence: It's come up and been discussed before, but from what I've seen in other discussions, the admins feel reputation levels would be kind of pointless of they were only positive. If you can only gain them, then rep is little more than another sign of his long you've been around or how much you post. Comparisons to Facebook came about too, if I remember. How people always ask Facebook to add a dislike button with the like button.

Shroom kinda said it well with, the rei system is already kinda trivial, but getting rid of downvotes kind of makes it pointless. We might as well do away with the system entirely, but I don't think either of those things will happen.

[Adamir]

@axcellence: It's come up and been discussed before, but from what I've seen in other discussions, the admins feel reputation levels would be kind of pointless of they were only positive. If you can only gain them, then rep is little more than another sign of his long you've been around or how much you post. Comparisons to Facebook came about too, if I remember. How people always ask Facebook to add a dislike button with the like button.

Shroom kinda said it well with, the rei system is already kinda trivial, but getting rid of downvotes kind of makes it pointless. We might as well do away with the system entirely, but I don't think either of those things will happen.

If the downvote were removed, then it would just bring more emphasis onto what I, personally, look for when judging a user; rep point to post ratio. My personal formula is that someone with two posts per rep point is a contributing member of the forum, someone with an equal rep/post ratio is not just an active poster, but an intelligent poster, and someone with a 2/1 rep to post ratio is someone worth paying attention to. I wouldn't apply this to admins and moderators, though, because a large majority of their posts involve answering other peoples' questions in as clear a way as possible so as to be understood, rather thankless work in my opinion.

 

However, we would still have the problem of when someone posts something offensive/disturbing/off topic, but which isn't breaking any rules. For example, imagine the following.

 

Sanderson Elimination: Yup, you lynched me; I was an eliminator. By the way, my fellow eliminators were (name), (name) and (name).

 

Any RP: (My character) then proceeds to brutally murder your character via (insert description here). Yeah, yeah, I'm not allowed to rp other peoples' characters, or kill them without their permission - but do I look like I care about that?

 

A Theory: But if this happens, it means there would be no (Character)/(Character) pairing. Your theory is completely wrong, and I storming hate it with every fiber of my being.

 

General Discussions: Someone brings up something offensive relating to genocide, terrorism, etc.

 

Fan Fiction: I dislike this pairing, therefore I will rant at this fanfiction until my fingers drop off.

 

In conclusion... I have no idea where I was going with this. Except for the fact that the disadvantages of removing the downvote system are greater than the advantages.

[maxal]

This is a fight I will not win.

 

Perhaps I am not thick skin enough, perhaps I put too much importance in such a trivial system, but downvotes are, for me, the equivalent of throwing a rock. Some posters claim they get so upset about certain posts they feel they need to downvote them, but all the while they put the emphasis on themselves not wanting to be mean... This does not make sense to me. If you downvote someone out of anger, then you are purposely taking a personal revenge on a post you strongly disagree with. If you need anger to fuel your downvoting process, then you are not using the system in a rational way: you are channeling your feelings into it. There is no world where I can accept this is a sound process, but if these are the rules of the forum: I will bow to them, though I will state my disagreement in the matter.

 

Downvotes do feel like rocks being thrown, especially when you get the vibe your interlocutor is simply doing it out of anger or spite. Whereas I am able to stare disbelievingly as some downvotes I do receive, I do get very self-conscious about them. 

 

Some will say it is all my fault. I should be a better poster. I should phrase me thoughts better. I should avoid heated discussions. I should not be so obstinate. I should not talk as if I knew all the answers. I should not sound so self-confident all the time. I should improve my mastery of the English language to avoid making grammatical faults that arose ire. Heck, I have thought I needed to change whom and what I like about SA to be more inline with the crowd and thus avoid being so controversial.

 

I should be a great many things I am not. I have wondered long and hard as to why I had such a poor rep per posts ratio, one of the worst in the top posters/rep. I had wondered why I keep getting downvotes, every week, even in posts I consider quite sound. 

 

I have wondered if my contribution to this forum was worth anything. I have wondered if I should just leave since my posts seemed to be so unappreciated and since my person seems to upset so many others. 

 

Nothing positive has come out of the downvote system, for me. As for inserting on facebook, this thought gives me the creep, sincerely. 

[Moonskin]

“Essentially, disagreement downvotes to me seem the equivalent of yelling "Shut your mouth! No one wants to hear what you have to say!" at someone.”

 

 

 

That is not true. On the contrary, we should remember that downvotes (just like upvotes, for that matter) apply only to a specific post, not to a whole person. In real life, even the persons you love the most can sometimes say something you don’t want to hear for various reasons. When you say to a friend “don’t talk about this, it makes me uncomfortable”, it does not mean that you don’t care about them anymore, just that this specific subject is sensitive. And if you can say something like that to someone you love, you should be allowed to express freely your disagreement on a public forum, even if it is via a downvote/dislike system. Not everybody is enough a ease with words to post a 2 pages explanation on why they disagree or are hurt by something, and not everybody has the time (or care enough) to do so; should that mean that they don’t have a right to express their own opinion? Either we have a quick and easy way to like/unlike, or we don’t. None asks for an explanation when they get upvotes, why should there be one for the downvotes ?

 

 

“Some will say it is all my fault. I should be a better poster. I should phrase me thoughts better. I should avoid heated discussions. I should not be so obstinate. I should not talk as if I knew all the answers. I should not sound so self-confident all the time.”

 

 

Well, in my opinion, you certainly should not change who you are just because of a ranking system in some public forum. If YOU think there is a problem with the way you interact, it is good that you try to improve that; but if it is in reaction to the fact that some people don’t always agree with you, it is another matter entirely. None will ever achieve a total consensus and I personally think it is a very good thing. Maybe I am just lucky to be one of those who don’t care much about what people think of them; maybe it is because I never got downvotes yet, but I must admit that I find difficult to understand why it matters or hurt so much 

 

As for the anonymity of the upvote/downvote, I find it a very good thing, even though I never used the downvote yet. As a principle, I am strongly against the fact that anything and everything under the sun should be controlled, regulated and monitored. Yes, there always will be jerks to abuse the system for personal vendettas, but it is not a reason why we should change said system. I am afraid that making the downvotes non-anonymous would only either lead to open war and grudges between the concerned persons or discourage people to ever disagree with something, out of fear of reprisal.

[Twenty@20]

I have been following this topic and decided to post after a long gap. I would like to suggest two simple modifications to the downvote mechanism to minimise downvote abuse.

First, the colour of the down vote button can be changed to some neutral colour like blue or yellow. The red down vote button and red coloured negative reputations do look very damaging in a sharder's posts and profile. Changing the colour would go a long way in alleviating the negative implications of the downvote.

Second, the downvotes can be excluded from the reputation count - both total and for individual posts. The forumwide reputation can be comprised of total upvotes only while the downvotes shouldn't be counted at all. This will let downvotes to used as originally intended - as a criticism of the specific post- and useless as means of personal vendetta if anyone is inclined to do so.

That's my two cents.

[Kobold King]

I have been following this topic and decided to post after a long gap. I would like to suggest two simple modifications to the downvote mechanism to minimise downvote abuse.

First, the colour of the down vote button can be changed to some neutral colour like blue or yellow. The red down vote button and red coloured negative reputations do look very damaging in a sharder's posts and profile. Changing the colour would go a long way in alleviating the negative implications of the downvote.

Second, the downvotes can be excluded from the reputation count - both total and for individual posts. The forumwide reputation can be comprised of total upvotes only while the downvotes shouldn't be counted at all. This will let downvotes to used as originally intended - as a criticism of the specific post- and useless as means of personal vendetta if anyone is inclined to do so.

That's my two cents.

 

I could get behind this.

 

I would still very much oppose downvotes' usage in casual disagreements, but this would remove a bit of the sting. There are apparently members who can watch their posts bleed into the red negative without a twinge of unhappiness, but I am not one of those people.

[maxal]

Well, in my opinion, you certainly should not change who you are just because of a ranking system in some public forum. If YOU think there is a problem with the way you interact, it is good that you try to improve that; but if it is in reaction to the fact that some people don’t always agree with you, it is another matter entirely. None will ever achieve a total consensus and I personally think it is a very good thing. Maybe I am just lucky to be one of those who don’t care much about what people think of them; maybe it is because I never got downvotes yet, but I must admit that I find difficult to understand why it matters or hurt so much 

 

We all are different persons. I personally get quite upset for being unjustly downvoted. I do not complain about those I feel I may have deserved, but there is a fair bunch that seemed to have come out of the blue. None of these ever came with an explanation as to why I was receiving a downvote. 

 

For you, a downvote expresses a disagreement.

 

For me, a downvote expresses a statement claiming my opinion is not wanted because it does not align with that of the popular crowd. The popular crowd has decided certain opinions could not be shared without being downvoted and it is not consistent. It goes far beyond a simple matter of disagreement. I could tell you at lengths the comments you cannot say without being downvoted and those you can without fear. I see this fact as pure injustice and it riles me as all opinions are not treated equally. 

 

It is true I have gone sour over the issue through out the last year or so. Anyone could call me out for it, but those downvotes have been a constant nail and too often a true sting.

 

I could get behind this.

 

I would still very much oppose downvotes' usage in casual disagreements, but this would remove a bit of the sting. There are apparently members who can watch their posts bleed into the red negative without a twinge of unhappiness, but I am not one of those people.

 

That makes two of us Kobold and where there is two, there usually are more. It does not matter if we have 16 000, 1000 or 100 upvotes, the downvotes still hurt people, especially when the poster has no idea as to why this specific post is going into the red.

 

I would support Twenty's suggestion as well, though my wish would be for downvote to be accompany by a private anonymous notice stating why an individual chose to downvote this specific post. 

[Chaos]

I will be making an official response this week. I have been extremely busy.

Maxal, I will be following up with you directly regarding potential abuse. However, I would note that your rep to post ratio is above .5 and for much of 17S's lifespan that's *extremely* good. Do not look at Kobold and lament; that outlier is not relevant here. You also don't RP which is a rep farm. Seriously, your ratios are fine and are not systemic of really anything. But if there is abuse towards you, I will discover it

More addressing the topic at hand coming soon.