Szeth and the Stone Shaman

[11thorderknight]

So, here goes nothing...

Szeth's Shardblade is described as "smaller than most" and at the same time as a "monstrosity of a Shardblade" by Taravangian. We know that Szeth's eyes turn bright blue when he summons his blade, "a peculiar effect of the blade he carried". We know his Surgebinding does not come from him becoming a Knight Radiant the way Kaladin is.

My theory: Szeth's Blade is not just any Shardblade, it's the Honorblade once carried by Jezrien. Each of the Honorblades will bestow upon their owner the full powers of a Radiant of the appropriate order.

Further baseless speculation: The Stone Shamans are the descendants of the order of Stonewards, and are the only Radiants who did not abandon their Oaths, since their Herald did not forsake them. They currently possess all 9 abandoned Honorblades, and for whatever reason, saw fit to punish Szeth by making him Truthless. Once he dies, they will go retrieve the Blade.

Please discuss.

[name_here]

The Stonewards abandoned their Oaths at Feverstone Keep with the Windrunners. They're the orange Plate ones.

[hoser]

I like the theory about Szeth carrying Jezrien's Honorblade. In fact, I've even propounded it. However, there is word of Brandon to the effect that we've seen three kinds of Shardblades. I now think that the honorblades are one type, Szeth's is another and all the others we've seen are Radiantblades. :(/>

Edited December 15, 2012 by hoser

[lDanielHolm]

Yeah, I agree with Hoser. Brandon has said we saw three types of Blades in tWoK (in the Q&A here on the forums). The only candidates are Honorblades, regular Shardblades, and Szeth's Shardblade, which is much shorter than the "regular" type. If Szeth's is an Honorblade, then what is the third type of Shardblade in tWoK?

BTW, it's "unique", not "peculiar":

"The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon."

Quibbling, really, but they do mean vastly different things.

[11thorderknight]

I stand corrected regarding the Stonewards. Three further points though...

1) I still don't think the existence of Stone Shamans and Herald #9 being the only one still bound to the Oathpact is an coincidence. I accept that the Shamans are probably not Radiants in the old sense of the term, but there's got to be some connection. They're clearly not just religious figures in the mundane sense of the word; how can you explain Szeth's casual thoughts about them "retrieving" his Blade from whoever took it after he died? The Shamans as an organization clearly must have some kind of abilities.

2) "Unique effect of his particular weapon". EXACTLY!! It's not just an effect of darkeyes becoming lighteyes, which will apparently happen with any commoner acquiring a traditional Blade (at least, that's the common knowledge according to Kaladin, an the situation must have happened enough times in history for that to be confirmed). Szeth's eyes are already green, and the change is only when he's using his abilities and/or the Blade. Note also that the prologue to the entire series describes the Honorblades as "unique". I can only imagine how much thought Brandon must have put into every word of that prologue, and again, I'd be very surprised if that use of the same word was a coincidence.

3) Regarding the three different types of Blades; we've obviously seen common Shardblades (#1) and the Honorblades in the prologue (#2). We know Szeth's Blade is not the same as #1. Therefore, people are assuming that it must be #3. However, I've got another candidate for #3 - the Shardblades we see the Radiants use in Dalinar's visions. In the vision at Feverstone Keep, he notices that there's a subtle light/glow that fades from them once they're abandoned. We know Syl doesn't like common Shardblades (#1) but it wouldn't really make sense for all Honorspren to strongly dislike the Blades of the original Knights. Plus, we know something changed about the Plate they abandoned so that it now works differently; why should the Blades have stayed the same? A strong possibility is that the original Blades (#3) became common Blades (#1) at the Recreance. We might not know exactly what the difference is, but I"m pretty sure there is one.

[lDanielHolm]

That doesn't work. If the Blades left at Feverstone Keep "became" the current Blades we know of (which is the only thing that makes sense), then they are the same type of Blade. The Radiants may have been able to use them more efficiently, but that doesn't make them a different kind of Blade.

[Observer]

Don't forget the Herald in the epilogue, his eyes stayed dark even when holding the blade. That could just be a unique effect, but it's different than either other kind of blade we've seen.

[Meg]

So, here goes nothing...

Szeth's Shardblade is described as "smaller than most" and at the same time as a "monstrosity of a Shardblade" by Taravangian. We know that Szeth's eyes turn bright blue when he summons his blade, "a peculiar effect of the blade he carried". We know his Surgebinding does not come from him becoming a Knight Radiant the way Kaladin is.

My theory: Szeth's Blade is not just any Shardblade, it's the Honorblade once carried by Jezrien. Each of the Honorblades will bestow upon their owner the full powers of a Radiant of the appropriate order.

I can't agree with this. First, I think that Shardblades are kind of magical weapons so I would believe that a short Shardbearer has a smaller weapon than a big one. I think the weapons will fit with their bearers. Which means that the size of the blades varies with its bearer (as must the Plates or do we think all Shardbearers are of the same size, weight and so forth)?

Concerning the idea Szeth's Blade is Jezriens Honorblade I've to admit that I sure lack of informations (I don't see any clue which points to this theory).

Szeth's eyes are already green, and the change is only when he's using his abilities and/or the Blade.

Why "and/or"? I must have missed the part where it's written that his eyes change without having summonde his blade .

That doesn't work. If the Blades left at Feverstone Keep "became" the current Blades we know of (which is the only thing that makes sense), then they are the same type of Blade. The Radiants may have been able to use them more efficiently, but that doesn't make them a different kind of Blade.

Hmm, not necessarily, I think. If the Blades "became" the current ones, doesn't this imply that they changed? Changed to "normal Shardblades", which don't have or give the same abilities to their bearers than the "true" Knight Radiants Shardblades did? If only because the act of abandoning leaves them without their "true and original" Bearers. May be the combination Knight Radiant + Shardblade (respectively the Plates too?) is unique, but all "pieces" would work for their own, and only the combination makes the difference?

From where should the "actual" Shardblades have come if not from the Knight Radiants. I'm rather sure the Radiants didn't leave manuals to create new Shardblades .

Don't forget the Herald in the epilogue, his eyes stayed dark even when holding the blade. That could just be a unique effect, but it's different than either other kind of blade we've seen.

His blade surely is an Honorblade. I think these are bound to one specific person and can not be given away or token away, and because this is a unique and strong combination, there is no room for the need of changes (as like when common people gather a Shardplate or blade).

[Elwynn]

His blade surely is an Honorblade. I think these are bound to one specific person and can not be given away or token away, and because this is a unique and strong combination, there is no room for the need of changes (as like when common people gather a Shardplate or blade).

No Shardblade that we know of, can ever be taken away. Not even normal ones.

Honorblades can be given up, that's what they did in the prelude, gave up their burden..."our swords must be left, the oathpact ends now." (paraphrase)

And we have word of Brandon that any person can take up and bond an Honorblade.

[lDanielHolm]

Hmm, not necessarily, I think. If the Blades "became" the current ones, doesn't this imply that they changed? Changed to "normal Shardblades", which don't have or give the same abilities to their bearers than the "true" Knight Radiants Shardblades did? If only because the act of abandoning leaves them without their "true and original" Bearers. May be the combination Knight Radiant + Shardblade (respectively the Plates too?) is unique, but all "pieces" would work for their own, and only the combination makes the difference?

From where should the "actual" Shardblades have come if not from the Knight Radiants. I'm rather sure the Radiants didn't leave manuals to create new Shardblades .

No, this is precisely what I mean. The fact that the Radiants were able to do more with their Shardblades and Plate does not necessarily mean the Blades and Plate themselves have changed.

You cannot call that a separate kind of Blade. It just doesn't work. Szeth's Blade must be the third kind of Shardblade we've seen in TWoK.

[Elwynn]

You cannot call that a separate kind of Blade. It just doesn't work. Szeth's Blade must be the third kind of Shardblade we've seen in TWoK.

This is one part I'm not sure of yet. Could very well be correct, but...

What Syl says about Dalinar's Blade, "(how she) hate(s) it" makes me think it's definitely not one of the old Radiant Blades. I mean, that just screams Odium. Inspiring hate like that from a BindSpren.

And we've seen Honorblades obviously.

So could Szeth actually have a Radiant's Blade of old?

For some reason this fits for me, could explain why he doesn't need a spren, there is something left in the blade that didn't die like the ones at Feverstone Keep.

Doesn't make all that much sense when you break it down, but I can't see Dalinar's Blade being an old Radiant Blade, and we've only seen 3, so...

...just a thought.

[The Count]

So could Szeth actually have a Radiant's Blade of old?

For some reason this fits for me, could explain why he doesn't need a spren, there is something left in the blade that didn't die like the ones at Feverstone Keep.

Doesn't make all that much sense when you break it down, but I can't see Dalinar's Blade being an old Radiant Blade, and we've only seen 3, so...

...just a thought.

Not convinced by this because Dalinar recognises the Blades left at Feverstone Keep as familiar Shardblades. That is, they are massive and ornate. If they were signifiacntly different (or smaller, curved etc) he would certainly have commented on it.

The simplest and logical conclusion is that all the 'normal' sharblades we have seen were amoung those left at Feverstone Keep by the Windrunners and Stonewards.

Leaving the other types being Szeth's blade and the Honourblades by default.

My guess is that Szeth's blade is much older than the 'normal' blades.

From the Nohadon vision we know that Surgebinding, Nahel Bonds and Desolations predate the formation of the KR. It is logical that Shardblades existed before the KR as well.

My guess is that Szeth carries one of these older blades. Bear in mind that my own theory is that Nohadon bound surgbinding powers to the KR oaths using a Dawnshard when the KR were formed. This could also have changed the nature of the Blades as well, which allows for the 'modern' blades to be a different type to Szeths's.

All Speculation and probably wrong - can't wait to see what the real deal is!

[Elwynn]

Not convinced by this because Dalinar recognises the Blades left at Feverstone Keep as familiar Shardblades. That is, they are massive and ornate. If they were signifiacntly different (or smaller, curved etc) he would certainly have commented on it.

Well I wouldn't say he recognized them, just described them. But that's a good point, I constantly forget that Szeth's Blade is smaller than most. Do we have any evidence that Blades change to fit their user like Plate does? Can't think of any at the moment

The simplest and logical conclusion is that all the 'normal' sharblades we have seen were amoung those left at Feverstone Keep by the Windrunners and Stonewards.

Leaving the other types being Szeth's blade and the Honourblades by default.

While you might end up being right, I wouldn't call it the, 'simplest and logical conclusion.' Szeth's Blade is the only one that makes your eyes turn a pale white, almost glowing white, when he wields it. The only correlation we have to that right now is the original KR. And yes, I know, the KR's eyes glowed even when not wielding their Blade, but it's still the only parallel we can draw with his Blade. Making it the simplest and most logical.

My guess is that Szeth's blade is much older than the 'normal' blades.

From the Nohadon vision we know that Surgebinding, Nahel Bonds and Desolations predate the formation of the KR. It is logical that Shardblades existed before the KR as well.

Wouldn't call that logical either. Just because they have those powers doesn't mean they have Blades, the bodies of the Voidbringers are whole, and there are blasted out sections of rock along the balcony where Surgebinders were fighting...but there isn't a single thing I'm seeing that suggests Shardblades were around.

And if they had Blades they would have had Plate, and 9 out of 10 people in the world dead doesn't lend credence to the ultimate weapon and armor combo.

My guess is that Szeth carries one of these older blades. Bear in mind that my own theory is that Nohadon bound surgbinding powers to the KR oaths using a Dawnshard when the KR were formed. This could also have changed the nature of the Blades as well, which allows for the 'modern' blades to be a different type to Szeths's.

You mean my theory right?

All Speculation and probably wrong - can't wait to see what the real deal is!

We're all so far out there on speculation sometimes we don't remember how we got on certain topics. That's what makes it fun!

I know what you mean though...even talking about this stuff makes me crazy for SA2!

[Meg]

No Shardblade that we know of, can ever be taken away. Not even normal ones.

I've to admit that you're right .

Honorblades can be given up, that's what they did in the prelude, gave up their burden..."our swords must be left, the oathpact ends now." (paraphrase)

And we have word of Brandon that any person can take up and bond an Honorblade.

Can't "normal" Shardblades been given up to? If they could be lent, why not given up or at least given away.

And we've seen Honorblades obviously.

So could Szeth actually have a Radiant's Blade of old?

I'd like to ask a perhaps silly question because I'm confused: Did or did not the Knight Radiants have spren?

And I obviously missed where we saw Honorblades in TWoK -- except Prelude and Epilogue. Or did you refer to this two parts? If not, I'd be grateful to get a hint about this.

Not convinced by this because Dalinar recognises the Blades left at Feverstone Keep as familiar Shardblades. That is, they are massive and ornate. If they were signifiacntly different (or smaller, curved etc) he would certainly have commented on it.

Dalinar perhaps would have commented on it, but Brandon ...?

edit:

While looking further around I found this thread about the Hidden Heralds where the question about the Shardblades came up too.

Now my brain is twirling and I nearly think, Szeth has an Honorblade because he is one of the 10 Heralds. But I don't believe myself .

/edit

Edited December 19, 2012 by Meg

[Elwynn]

Can't "normal" Shardblades been given up to? If they could be lent, why not given up or at least given away.

They absolutely can. Dalinar gives his to Sadeas in the end, you just kind of have to will it to stay and another person takes it. Sorry if I said anything to make you think otherwise.

However...lend a Blade? Not sure what you mean there, I don't think you can lend a Shardblade out to someone without un-bonding it.

I'd like to ask a perhaps silly question because I'm confused: Did or did not the Knight Radiants have spren?

Not silly at all. The answer...most definitely probably in-all-likely-hood maybe it seems kind of logical they did...kind of way. But we don't know that they did. i.e. never see an actual KR with one. But it's a pretty sure bet that they bonded spren.

And I obviously missed where we saw Honorblades in TWoK -- except Prelude and Epilogue. Or did you refer to this two parts? If not, I'd be grateful to get a hint about this.

Yup. I was refering to Prelude and Epilogue about seeing Honorblades.

Now my brain is twirling and I nearly think, Szeth has an Honorblade because he is one of the 10 Heralds. But I don't believe myself :)/>.

I've actually given that some thought before, but you basically have to wave bye-bye to occam in the rearview mirror to even give it a go. Still fun though.

If you have some interesting thoughts about Szeth being a Herald, make a thread, give it a go. It's all about having fun theorizing. I've got a crazy theory about Szeth having soulcasting like Shallan, kind of...it's all centered around the 'what are you?' question, crazy is what makes it fun!

[The Count]

***SPOILERS FROM SA2 READING BELOW***

You mean my theory right? :P/>/>/>/>

Sorry, just realised how posessive I sounded! Shall we say A theory I subscribe to is....

On the did the KR have spren thing, I think there a lot of evidence for a yes here even if we do not have a primary reference:

1/ Syl rememebers helping Men to kill before (not necessarily KR but who else could it be?)

2/ Nohadon implies that surgebinding comes from a bond with spren and the KR were definitely surgebinders.

3/ Teft thinks Kaladin is becoming a KR and kaladin has a spren to give hime is powers

4/ Brandon has said Kaladin is on the path to become a windrunner.

Together, I think it is safe to assume that, at least as far as windrunners go, the KR had bonded spren.

BUT: we also know that you do not NEED a spren to have windrunner powers (see our favourite truthless). Also I am not sure if all the KR orders had bonded spren. I am still not convinced whether Jasnah and Shallan's powers come from a bond with the 'symbol' spren or if the relationship is a bit different... I suppose it depends on how you define bond.

Another thought that just struck me is that the theme of bonding / interacting with / using Spren is recurring quite often in the books.

1/ Kaladin's powers (and possibly all surgebinding)

2/ Fabrials

3/ Parshendi Forms

4/ Symbiotic relationship with Greatshells

I am beginning to think that maybe all Magic on Roshar is tied in with Spren in some way...

[Meg]

They absolutely can. Dalinar gives his to Sadeas in the end, you just kind of have to will it to stay and another person takes it. Sorry if I said anything to make you think otherwise.

However...lend a Blade? Not sure what you mean there, I don't think you can lend a Shardblade out to someone without un-bonding it.

Oops! I've been so struck on Szeth and Oathpact that I lost track about this.

About lending (out) Blades and Plates: I don't have my book here at work but I'm pretty sure to remember that Shardbearers can lend their Shardblades and -plates to other people and get them back. I. g. to give non-Shardbearers the opportunity to duel with shardbearers (non-Shard vs. Shard would not really work).

If I remember right this is mentioned when Adolin is preparing for his duel.

Yup. I was refering to Prelude and Epilogue about seeing Honorblades.

I see :)/>.

BUT: we also know that you do not NEED a spren to have windrunner powers (see our favourite truthless). Also I am not sure if all the KR orders had bonded spren.

Hmm, somebody mentioned, that Szeth has a spren to which is locked up in his Oathstone. So I am not sure whether we can take it as a fact, that "you do not need a spren to ...".

[lDanielHolm]

They absolutely can. Dalinar gives his to Sadeas in the end, you just kind of have to will it to stay and another person takes it. Sorry if I said anything to make you think otherwise.

However...lend a Blade? Not sure what you mean there, I don't think you can lend a Shardblade out to someone without un-bonding it.

It is a tradition for the King of Alethkar to lend his Plate and Blade to anyone who pays a fee. It probably does transfer "ownership", though in that case, I wonder why we haven't heard of anyone trying to steal them. (I totally would.)

[Meg]

It is a tradition for the King of Alethkar to lend his Plate and Blade to anyone who pays a fee. It probably does transfer "ownership", though in that case, I wonder why we haven't heard of anyone trying to steal them. (I totally would.)

Please don't get me wrong but I couldn't resist [ha, now I've learned what SNCR means]. The exact quote is:

By tradition, the king's own Shardplate and Blade were available for a large fee to those who both had his favour and the wish to duel a Shardbearer.

... And yet, the lending of the king's Blade and Plate -- or before the monarchy had been restored, the lending of highprince's Blade and Plate -- was a strong tradition.

Why am I so insisting about that? I think the possibility of lending Plates and Blades is not depending on the very person of the Shardbearer. King or highprince ... they are bound to their Plates and Blades in the same way like not-highranked Shardbearers. I kind of have the feeling this might become important later on.

About trying to steal a Shardplate or Blade: I think this would not work because lending as well as giving away is an act the Shardbearer is intended to do, it is his will.

I don't have an idea how the Plates are stored but when we think about pulling them on, I'd like to think it would take more than only one man to carry the parts away -- bit too obtrusiv one would say.

And Blades aren't stored anywhere, they are "nothing" when not summoned by their bearer. In fight, when the Shardbearer is knocked over but still alive, the Blade vanishes.

[lDanielHolm]

Please don't get me wrong but I couldn't resist [ha, now I've learned what SNCR means]. The exact quote is:

Thanks, though I don't see how it contradicts what I said...?

Why am I so insisting about that? I think the possibility of lending Plates and Blades is not depending on the very person of the Shardbearer. King or highprince ... they are bound to their Plates and Blades in the same way like not-highranked Shardbearers. I kind of have the feeling this might become important later on.

I don't think there's anything special about being king or highprince regarding Blade and Plate, if that's what you're referring to.

About trying to steal a Shardplate or Blade: I think this would not work because lending as well as giving away is an act the Shardbearer is intended to do, it is his will.

Once someone else is wearing the Plate and wielding the Blade, I don't see how the original owner can make them give it back. Dalinar alludes to the possibility of stealing Plate -- he thinks that the Parshendi can attempt to grow an entire Plate set out of the gauntlet he was forced to abandon, so it is not bound to you. As for the Blade, I think that if you hold it, you are the possessor of it, regardless of whether the original owner is still alive (and still wants it). I doubt Dalinar can just will his Blade to return, for instance.

I don't have an idea how the Plates are stored but when we think about pulling them on, I'd like to think it would take more than only one man to carry the parts away -- bit too obtrusiv one would say.

And Blades aren't stored anywhere, they are "nothing" when not summoned by their bearer. In fight, when the Shardbearer is knocked over but still alive, the Blade vanishes.

That's not quite what I meant, though. Since you can lease the king's Shardblade and Plate, once you are wearing them, you could conceivably just decide to run off with them.

[name_here]

Well, if anyone tried to steal the Plate and Blade, the other Shardbearers would probably murder him and give them back. Though it's also possible the Blade registers a distinction between giving it away and loaning it. There's a lot of magic in the Cosmere where it's important to be intending to do something for that to happen. Elantrians can't accidentally create or destroy Aons, just saying a Command doesn't automatically make it take effect unless the speaker is trying to perform Awakening, and so forth.

[Odium's Beard]

Am I crazy to think the Shin are making modern shardblades and that's why they need " metal that bears no stain of broken rock"?

*First Post*

[Voidus]

Am I crazy to think the Shin are making modern shardblades and that's why they need " metal that bears no stain of broken rock"?

*First Post*

First off, welcome to the forums! I think it more likely that this is just another cultural component they hold those who destroy things in contempt and hold stone to be sacred so I'd say that's all it is, they still might be making Shardblades but I'd say that most of that metal would be used for ordinary metalwork.

[Martinitram]

This is an old topic I know, but I had some thought along a similar path and I thought it best to avoid any possible necrothreads...

That being said, First off, I think that these all are valid, well thought out points.

I definitely like the Stone Shaman = Taln disciples theory a lot. And I can accept the possibility that Szeth does indeed carry Jezrien's blade or perhaps another honorblade, although it could be any number of things.

My question is this:

Does anyone see Szeth as an agent for Odium, even if unknowingly? Or perhaps, a KR type that has been corrupted. What does it really mean to be Truthless in that regard. Is that somehow ties to Shadesmar, where you seem to need truth to access? Are the blade and surgebinding skills part of a tie to Odium or Honor, or both?

He mentions having dutiful honor binding him to his purpose, the will of his masters. But he also, is perceived as having uncontrollable hate. He even goes so far as to call himself 'hate' if I'm not mistaken. Tanavast mentions to Dalinar that if Odium chooses a champion it may be for the best. Im not implying that Szeth is said champion, but I do feel there is a connection between Szeth the Truthless and Odium.

As already posted earlier, Szeth references the voidbringers and his 'punishment' demands that they don't exist, yet his honor demands they do. And it was also said that when he dies he will go back to the place that sounds a lot like Damnation (and where the Heralds would have to go after they die)

Here an observation to that:

So the Heralds are immortal... but hey can die in battle...

What if... Szeth was once a Herald, heck even perhaps Jezrien. He dies somehow couple thousand years later. He goes to Damnation. Odium is like, "Hey buddy, you broke the Oathpact, now you mine!" He is then brought back to Roshar as Szeth (its a stretch I know, Szeth's a Shin and doesn't fit the description of a Herald). He has little knowledge of the past, kinda like Syl, yet knows things he shouldn't, like surgebinding. Maybe the reason he is called Truthless is because the Stone Shamans were awaiting the return of Taln, and instead they got a corrupted version of a Herald.

Of course this is all based on speculation, and it all leads to more speculation about his assassinations and who is really behind them...

To wrap it up... back on topic here.. What if his blade IS the 3rd kind of blade, but those blades were crafted by Odium, and if he WAS a Herald than his original blade is still in the SP somewhere being guarded by the Parshendi (only half serious there, but still..) Or maybe it is Jezrien's blade after all..

Who knows? Its fun to guess though!!!