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Why Worldhopping is hard on Sel


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I couldn't help but notice something on my second Elantris readthrough. The Elantrian books Roaden studies mention the the Dor seeks only to escape, and that there is immense pressure in its realm, forcing it outward. We know the Cognitive and Spiritual relams are very closely linked, so it makes sense that that immense pressure would have an effect on the Shadesmar. Maybe worldhoppers just get ejected back out (And like the travel Aon, who knows to where?), or maybe something else. Either way, I think the Dor and how it relates to Aona's shattering is crucial to understanding Sel's cognitive realm.

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Magic on Sel is related to its geography in some way -- that, at least, is the general assumption. In TES, Shai fancies that the setting mark that finishes all soulstamps looks like her homeland MaiPon, similar to how all Aons are built around Arelon.

Shadesmar reflects the geography of the world that you enter it from in some way. (The one map we have of Shadesmar is from the perspective of one entering it from Roshar, and the map is Roshar inverted: land becomes sea, sea becomes land (and in some cases, mountains).)

This probably has a great deal to do with why it is difficult to travel to Sel from Shadesmar.

Edited by lDanielHolm
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I'm not sure if it'd work like that, didn't the heavy pressure from the Dor get relieved once Raoden started using proper magic?

Elantrian magic is scientific, I imagine it would be a lot easier to make it help you do some wave hopping. It also includes a lot of transformation which we know from TES is related to the cognitive realm.

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I've suggested that splinters of Dominion chill about in Shadesmar trying to eat people, for what it's worth. That suggestion came from the fact that WoK apparently hinted at why it's dangerous to travel through Shadesmar near Sel.

Edited by Kurkistan
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I would suggest, that all aspects of Shadesmar look like an inverted map of the world you enter it from, or perhapes based upon the goegraphy of the world the magic system used to access it from. Now we know that Aons are built around the geography, and the shape of the world. I hypothisis then, that Aons, are reversed, upon entering shadesmar, as it is inverted there. Thefore upon entering Shadesmar, the Aon that gets you there is inverted, resulting in it immediently ejecting you from the shadesmar, unless you can resist it, maybe by redrawing the Inverted Aon quickly. Without proper experience of the Aons, I imagine it would be difficult to avoid being "ejected".

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I've suggested that splinters of Dominion chill about in Shadesmar trying to eat people, for what it's worth. That suggestion came from the fact that WoK apparently hinted at why it's dangerous to travel through Shadesmar near Sel.

He said it was indirectly related to the splintering. I'd guess that Odium made some evil Seons (the local manifestation of splinters) and they're messing about in Shadesmar with no one to oppose them.

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He said it was indirectly related to the splintering. I'd guess that Odium made some evil Seons (the local manifestation of splinters) and they're messing about in Shadesmar with no one to oppose them.

Do you mean Skaze? Because, while it could be Odium, I think that we can chalk up "evil Seons" to the Shard called "Dominion" easily enough. It would also cost Odium some of his power if he were to Splinter himself at all, and all for the rather dubious benefit of stopping the puny monkey-men of one planet, without even a proper Shard, from traveling; and maybe messing with their politics a bit.

EDIT: Though I guess he could just be that mean that he would do that, he would probably hold off on wasteful pettiness until he Splinters all of the other Shards that are the real threat to him.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Do you mean Skaze? Because, while it could be Odium, I think that we can chalk up "evil Seons" to the Shard called "Dominion" easily enough. It would also cost Odium some of his power if he were to Splinter himself at all, and all for the rather dubious benefit of stopping the puny monkey-men of one planet, without even a proper Shard, from traveling and maybe messing with their politics a bit.

EDIT: Though I guess he could just be that mean that he would do that, he would probably hold off on wasteful pettiness until he Splinters all of the other Shards that are the real threat to him.

Shards are extraordinarily powerful. I doubt it would cost that much for Odium to leave some reminders of himself on Sel to keep an eye on the fort.

He may have some big plan too to boost his power, like stealing spirit energy from dead people.

Edit. You think Odium is beyond wasteful pettiness?

Edited by Nepene
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Shards are extraordinarily powerful. I doubt it would cost that much for Odium to leave some reminders of himself on Sel to keep an eye on the fort.

He may have some big plan too to boost his power, like stealing spirit energy from dead people.

Edit. You think Odium is beyond wasteful pettiness?

Perhaps. It certainly isn't impossible.

Whether Odium is wastefully petty really is the question, isn't it? We know that Ruin was capable of at least moderately non-Ruinous actions in favor of his greater goal (think The Joker: an agent of chaos, but not its embodiment), and we also know that Odium's ultimate goal is to Splinter all of the other Shards and be the most powerful being in the Cosmere--at which point he will probably start being as petty as all get out, with no chance of anyone ever being able to stop him.

Whether and to what extent Odium's nature will allow him to divert some power (and thus a small part of his chance at winning the broader war) into ruining the lives of a few puny mortals for fun along the way is still unknown, though.

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Perhaps. It certainly isn't impossible.

Whether Odium is wastefully petty really is the question, isn't it? We know that Ruin was capable of at least moderately non-Ruinous actions in favor of his greater goal (think The Joker: an agent of chaos, but not its embodiment), and we also know that Odium's ultimate goal is to Splinter all of the other Shards and be the most powerful being in the Cosmere--at which point he will probably start being as petty as all get out, with no chance of anyone ever being able to stop him.

Whether and to what extent Odium's nature will allow him to divert some power (and thus a small part of his chance at winning the broader war) into ruining the lives of a few puny mortals for fun along the way is still unknown, though.

I was looking through the glossary and I noticed something.

""The Svrakiss," Dilaf said quietly.

"Yes." Svrakiss. The souls of the dead men who hated Jaddeth, the opponents to

all that was holy. According to Shu-Dereth, there was nothing more bitter than

a soul who had had its chance and thrown it away."

Maybe you're right and Odium wasn't petty. Maybe he corrupted the souls of the dead so they would use their spiritual power to mess with anyone on the plane, perhaps hoping to block Hoid and the 17th shard from accessing the world and keeping the world in general chaos.

If it worked, and he managed to shatter Dominion and Devotion through some cheap trick like that it would be very impressive.

Edited by Nepene
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I'm not sure if it'd work like that, didn't the heavy pressure from the Dor get relieved once Raoden started using proper magic?

Elantrian magic is scientific, I imagine it would be a lot easier to make it help you do some wave hopping. It also includes a lot of transformation which we know from TES is related to the cognitive realm.

It's from pre-Raod books, so I doubt that's the case. As to inverted Aons, that theory works too. Possibly a combo of the two. On a related note, I wonder what would happen if you ran into a splinter while waltzing through Shadesmar. Probably nothing good.

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Well, we know that the chasm caused the change in Elantris, but have we determined what caused the chasm? If something changed the landscape of the entire planet enough, it might have affected the link to Shadesmar enough to make it tricky to go through. That said, I wonder how easy it is for Hoid to go to the Mistborn world. Two major continental changes as well two planetary shifts could cause havoc. At least his appearances in Mistborn have massive time passage between the event and his travel. One thousand years and three hundred, but Elantris is only ten years.

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Magic on Sel is related to its geography in some way -- that, at least, is the general assumption. In TES, Shai fancies that the setting mark that finishes all soulstamps looks like her homeland MaiPon, similar to how all Aons are built around Arelon.

Shadesmar reflects the geography of the world that you enter it from in some way. (The one map we have of Shadesmar is from the perspective of one entering it from Roshar, and the map is Roshar inverted: land becomes sea, sea becomes land (and in some cases, mountains).)

This probably has a great deal to do with why it is difficult to travel to Sel from Shadesmar.

I also feel that it's related to the geography-based magic.

Perhaps the land itself is "blinding" in Shadesmar, the way metal is to gods on Scadrial. Or if not quite on the level of "blinding", at least the geography is setting up a lot of interference, and making it hard to distinguish the features one needs to navigate Shadesmar. Brandon seemed to suggest that going to Shadesmar on Sel was actually dangerous though, not just confusing.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Chaos recently posted some pictures of questions answered in his signed books that said part of the reason was that that Devotion and Dominion were shattered there, and also had to do with 'the name of that expanse' speculation in that thread turned to the expanse of broken skies, and my particular take on that is that the region of shadesmar around Sel is filled with the wild uncontrolled and undirected power that once made up Devotion and Dominion, which incidentally to this thread is the Dor.

I'm not really sure how to support that beyond simple gut instinct, but there you have it.

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Is it possible that a forger messed up Shadesmar? That would certainly be.....interesting.

Regardless, all the excess and pressurized energy left over from the two dead shards likely makes things difficult, and the blinding idea adds into the nicely as well.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Is it possible that a forger messed up Shadesmar? That would certainly be.....interesting.

Regardless, all the excess and pressurized energy left over from the two dead shards likely makes things difficult, and the blinding idea adds into the nicely as well.

Unlikely. Brandon added forgers to Sel post Elantris. As far as I know he decided to do so early on in the creation of the novella.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I believe that the Shadesmar is connected, or focused, at the pool where the Elantrians went to die. It would explain why it's dangerous to travel through the Shadesmar on Sel, as the only one who we know of who hasn't died there was Raoden. We know he's strong-willed/stubborn enough to fight against it, and retain his sense of self.

And maybe the entrance to Shadesmar is different considering the location you enter? Like how Shallan had to reveal a secret, perhaps someone has to have a strong sense of purpose on Sel?

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