Theory: The House of Idris

[Windrunner]

Okay, I just today remembered a strange phenomena that we see in Warbreaker

“It’s true,” Vivenna said. “Being royal is about more than just blood. It’s about lineage and the holy calling of Austre. My children will not have the Royal Locks unless I become queen of Idris. Only potential heirs have the ability to change their hair color.”

Why would this be? How could Returned sDNA or the fragment of the Divine Breath possibly know who will inherit and who won't? It's not sentient, or able to see the future. The answer, I believe lies in the Emperor's Soul

All things exist in three Realms, Gaotona. Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual. The Physical is what we feel, what is before us. The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it views itself. The Spiritual Realm contains an object's soul-its essence-as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it.

Way back when Vo first had his child with the fragment of his Divine Breath, the first of the House of Idris, the child had the Royal Locks. Since the sailors from Chedesh had decided that Vo's line would rule them, the Royal Locks became a sign of the royal line. That's how the Royals themselves viewed it, and so did the people of their nation.

Now we can explain why only some of the people in the Royal Family end up with the Locks, even though they were equally close in relation to Vo. Those who had an opportunity to inherit the throne viewed themselves that way and knew that they should have the Locks, since they were the sign of the Royal Line, and so did the citizens of Idris. Since they were viewed that way by both themselves and the people, the fragment of the Divine Breath was expressed.

On the other hand, say Dedelin had a brother. This guy would have had the Royal Locks, since when he'd been born he had a chance to inherit the throne. His hypothetical children would have viewed themselves knowing that they wouldn't inherit the throne, and the people of Idris would have known they wouldn't inherit, so they wouldn't get the Locks, despite the fact that they are just as closely related to Vo as their cousins, Siri, Vivenna, and co.

I think a really interesting question to ask Brandon here, would be, "If Dedelin and all his children were killed, would the new heirs to the throne suddenly gain the Royal Locks?" Or we can just drop subtleties and say, "Is who gets the Royal Locks determined by how the Royals view themselves and how they are viewed by their nation?" I may pop in here later and tweak the wording to make some of my ideas more clear if I find a better way to express them, but I think I've got the gist of it across. Any thoughts?

[Kurkistan]

Interesting and plausible. It seems that TES really is "realmatics, the book."

I think that it's how the individual sees themselves, since Denth had the Royal Locks despite being a few dozen generations behind on the inheritance of the throne.
 
EDIT: Boom. A bit late (like half a year), but here's the answer.
 
Source

Kurkistan: Does Denth have the Royal Locks, independent of his being a Returned?

Brandon: Yes. (Good question.)

Edited April 18, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Windrunner]

Huh? Denth isn't related to the House of Idris, unless I've forgotten something. He's a Returned, which gives them the ability to change his appearance. (Although few know how it's done) The Royal Locks are actually a lesser form of this ability. I believe Denth's hair color is freaking out in the end because of his extreme emotion and pain from dying.

[Kurkistan]

Denth's death scene (p. 569):

Denth shook, bleeding, and lost control. His hair suddenly bled to deep black, then blond, then an angry red.

Finally, the hair turned white with terror and stayed there. He stopped moving, life fading away, new Breaths and old both vanishing.

Blushweaver died without any marked hair-changery. And Denth's body stayed exactly the same. Only his hair changed as he died. And it changed as a result of him "los[ing] control," with those changes specifically tied to his emotions. No other Returned are ever shown to have a "hair problem" akin to the Royal Locks. I suspect, then, that the Locks are a unique manifestation of the splinter of a Divine Breath in the royal family.

I thought this was a rather obvious hint and wasn't aware that others didn't also think that Denth was a Royal.

EDIT:

EDIT 2: Also recall that changing your appearance consciously requires mental gymnastics, while unconscious changes are a result of unconscious (who could guess!) changes in how you view yourself. "As a Returned, your body changes based on how you see yourself." I doubt that Denth, either consciously or unconsciously, saw himself as someone with differently colored hair corresponding to his emotions while he died.

-Sorry about the re-edit, lost my mind for a moment when I was doing all that quoting and forgot to actually finish my thought properly.

Some facts on the Royal Locks for your perusal, tangentially related to the Denth question:

Only Potential Heirs of Idris Have Royal Locks

This is true. It's not a matter of genetics, but lineage. That's a subtle distinction. Only the children of the person who ends up inheriting will have the Royal Locks. (Though there are a couple of notable exceptions to this, they won't show up in this book, as it will take another novel to explain why and how the Royal Locks really work. If I ever write a sequel, that should be in it.)

Following what you said, "lineage" could mean conscious lineage, like how a lost heir raised by wolves wouldn't perceive himself as part of the Idrian royal lineage.

EDIT 4: Though that probably isn't all, since then you'd think at least one jealous prince or something would just continue to think of himself as the king...

Edited October 29, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Argent]

Sounds like being able to change one's appearance relies heavily on a couple of things: the amount of investiture the person or object has (or is being given) and the level of control this person or object has over their avatar in the Spiritual Realm (either direct control or by going through the Cognitive Realm first, using "mental gymnastics").

Anyway. We have Forging, where Forgers imbue objects with a form of investiture and change their appearance to something "plausible" - or something the objects would rather be, in Shai's paraphrased words. So Forging is kind of easy, actually, because the objects really "want" to be something... better... and because the Dor is a pretty eager source of investiture. We kind of know that it tries to flow through all kinds of rune-like doors from the Spiritual Realm it "inhabits" to the Physical one.

On the other hand we have those pesky Royal Locks and the Returned's ability to change appearance through conscious effort. The Royal Locks, on a base level, respond to the Royal's emotions and turn a color that, subconsciously, the Royal associates with the emotion at hand. After all, there is no good reason for the Royal Locks to turn white when their bearer is feeling horror and/or dread. Other colors also seem to follow this idea - black for stability/control/calmness, yellow for joviality, red for shame/embarrassment, and so on. My contribution to the thread is the theory - hypothesis, rather - that if we had somebody with the Royal Locks who was raised a society/culture where (for example) the color black was strongly associated with horror and dread (for some deeply embedded cultural reason), their Locks would turn black instead of white when they were horrified.

And I appear to have gotten sidetracked. To tie what I was just talking about back to the original idea (that physical transformation depends on investiture and Spiritual control), let look at the three types of transformation Warbreaker presents us with. Note that investiture is present in all of them, though not necessarily in an obvious manner. First, involuntary color change of the Royal Locks. The Royals are descendants of the first Returned, so I think it's more or less safe to assume that they have a little extra investiture in them; their Breath has a little more ZING if you will. Moreover, since the change is involuntary, they can't go through the Cognitive Realm to accomplish it - it deals with instincts and subconsciousness, not rational thought. The best way to explain this is by saying that, going back to my first example, if a Royal feels an intense horror all of a sudden, their Locks would turn white because their subconsciousness associates that color with the feeling of horror (corpses are pale, scared people are pale, white is the absence of all color and therefore - of life, and so on). Similarly, a conscious change in the Locks' length or color will be fueled by the same innate extra investiture, but the change to the Spiritual Realm will come through mental effort by the Royal. And finally, the reason the Returned can change more than just their hair, would be because they have a lot more extra investiture in the form of their Divine Breath. I haven't quite worked out why they don't change all the time, but I suspect it has to do with how each one Returns in the body of the man or woman (s)he imagines as perfect. So, in their mind, they are already perfect, and no subconscious change in their emotions or behavior would cause them to deviate from that image.

[Nepene]

Denth's death scene (p. 569):

Blushweaver died without any marked hair-changery. And Denth's body stayed exactly the same. Only his hair changed as he died. And it changed as a result of him "los[ing] control," with those changes specifically tied to his emotions. No other Returned are ever shown to have a "hair problem" akin to the Royal Locks. I suspect, then, that the Locks are a unique manifestation of the splinter of a Divine Breath in the royal family.

I thought this was a rather obvious hint and wasn't aware that others didn't also think that Denth was a Royal.

EDIT:

EDIT 2: Also recall that changing your appearance consciously requires mental gymnastics, while unconscious changes are a result of unconscious (who could guess!) changes in how you view yourself. "As a Returned, your body changes based on how you see yourself." I doubt that Denth, either consciously or unconsciously, saw himself as someone with differently colored hair corresponding to his emotions while he died.

-Sorry about the re-edit, lost my mind for a moment when I was doing all that quoting and forgot to actually finish my thought properly.

Some facts on the Royal Locks for your perusal, tangentially related to the Denth question:

Following what you said, "lineage" could mean conscious lineage, like how a lost heir raised by wolves wouldn't perceive himself as part of the Idrian royal lineage.

EDIT 4: Though that probably isn't all, since then you'd think at least one jealous prince or something would just continue to think of himself as the king...

A royal being able to shapeshift their hair isn't a special magical ability. It's a minor manifestation of the divine soul that is in all royals due to their ancestry. Any returned could change their hair colour or change any feature of themselves.

He may have lost control due to the pleasure from having all the breaths in him.

[Kurkistan]

A royal being able to shapeshift their hair isn't a special magical ability. It's a minor manifestation of the divine soul that is in all royals due to their ancestry. Any returned could change their hair colour or change any feature of themselves.

He may have lost control due to the pleasure from having all the breaths in him.

Ah Nepene, once again we clash where I am obviously right.

As I said, frequent and incidental hair-changery appears to be a unique manifestation of the Royal Locks. Certainly its derived from the Divine Breath, and all Divine Breaths almost certainly have the capacity to enable such an attribute, but we see no evidence that normal Returned have this attribute.

In fact, the lack of such evidence provides a preposterous amount of negative evidence against normal Returned changing their hair color with the ease/cause of the Royal Locks.

As far as the pleasure of having all the Breaths in him:

First of all, Denth's hair only changed color when he is dying. There is no mention of it changing between the infusion of Breaths and his killing.

Second, Denth's hair goes through a variety of emotions while he dies, none of which could conceivably be linked to "pleasure" in the context of the scene.

Third, Vasher gets a massive, pleasurable influx of Breath in the beginning of the book, but no mention is made of his hair changing color.

So, is your "pleasure" point suggesting that, quite uniquely, a Returned hair will go through the range of their emotions if and only if they are given a massive influx of Breaths (causing intense pleasure) and then immediately killed?

Edited November 12, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Nepene]

Ah Nepene, once again we clash where I am obviously right.

As I said, frequent and incidental hair-changery appears to be a unique manifestation of the Royal Locks. Certainly its derived from the Divine Breath, and all Divine Breaths almost certainly have the capacity to enable such an attribute, but we see no evidence that normal Returned have this attribute.

Frequent and incidental hair changery is a manifestation of a Royal's poor self control over themselves and their lives. It is not a unique ability, it's a weakness.

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation/414/Warbreaker-Chapter-Thirty-Six

I'd presume that most returned have better self control and perhaps some greater degree of emotional strength from the divine breath. Whatever a person loses that causes depression might be added to them, or the full divine breath may have some degree of self control.

In fact, the lack of such evidence provides a preposterous amount of negative evidence against normal Returned changing their hair color with the ease/cause of the Royal Locks.

Changing the hair color, especially at random when it wouldn't be a good idea, is a mark of poor self control not good self control. Vasher is quite capable of turning his hair golden at the end. Denth, likewise, has excellent self control and experience keeping his form constant.

As far as the pleasure of having all the Breaths in him:

First of all, Denth's hair only changed color when he is dying. There is no mention of it changing between the infusion of Breaths and his killing.

Second, Denth's hair goes through a variety of emotions while he dies, none of which could conceivably be linked to "pleasure" in the context of the scene.

Third, Vasher gets a massive, pleasurable influx of Breath in the beginning of the book, but no mention is made of his hair changing color.

So, is your "pleasure" point suggesting that, quite uniquely, a Returned hair will go through the range of their emotions if and only if they are given a massive influx of Breaths (causing intense pleasure) and then immediately killed?

I'd presume any returned will have some random fluctuations if they are overwhelmed by sensation and confusing experiences and they feel out of control. I'd presume the returned have a lot of experience absorbing breaths.

Even if it was a unique power there's no reason to believe that only one returned could have it. It could be an ability of certain returned (although as noted, Vasher can change his hair color).

[Windrunner]

Yeah, I strongly agree with Nepene on this one. It's a fragment of a Divine Breath that's responsible for the Royal Locks, so if only one small part of a Divine Breath can cause that to happen, I imagine it can happen to someone with a full Divine Breath as well. As for why Blushweaver didn't freak out like that, it's probably because she died relatively quickly. Neither her nor Lightsong expected that they'd be in any real danger, and Lightsong only had the chance to yell a quick phrase before she was gone. Denth died relatively slowly. I think making him a member of the royal family makes things unnecessarily complicated.

[Kurkistan]

Frequent and incidental hair changery is a manifestation of a Royal's poor self control over themselves and their lives. It is not a unique ability, it's a weakness.

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation/414/Warbreaker-Chapter-Thirty-Six

Yes, that's why I called it an "attribute," not an ability, since it is not an unmitigated benefit for those who possess it. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, though.

I'd presume that most returned have better self control and perhaps some greater degree of emotional strength from the divine breath. Whatever a person loses that causes depression might be added to them, or the full divine breath may have some degree of self control.

...

Changing the hair color, especially at random when it wouldn't be a good idea, is a mark of poor self control not good self control. Vasher is quite capable of turning his hair golden at the end. Denth, likewise, has excellent self control and experience keeping his form constant.

...

I'd presume any returned will have some random fluctuations if they are overwhelmed by sensation and confusing experiences and they feel out of control.

The ability of Returned to alter their appearance (either consciously or unconsciously) is not well-known in Warbreaker--at least not by the Returned themselves--to the point where Lightsong ponders at why Returned of different eras look differently based on contemporary conceptions of perfection (pg 320) (oh, Cognitive Realm! Shiny! That merits some additional threadery).

EDIT:

Lightsong goes on to wonder at why the Returned change their appearances:

"But there have been gods who were fat, he thought, remembering some of the pictures he had seen of Returned who had come before him. There was a time in our culture’s history when that was seen as the ideal. . . . Did Returned looks have something to do with the way society saw them? Perhaps their opinion of ideal beauty? That would certainly explain Blushweaver."

One would think that witnessing Returneds' hair change color/length either at will or accidentally would make this a bit less of a "perhaps" thought process for Lightsong.

---

Because of this complete and utter lack of knowledge about the ability of Returned to alter their appearance drastically at any given time, I very very seriously doubt that any normal Returned suffers from emotional hair-changing.

Recall, also, that Siri had to consciously focus fairly hard to stop Treledees from reading her emotions based on "very minute changes of color," (pg 412) that Lightsong "could tell an ideal red from one that had been mixed with even one drop of white paint" (pg 49).

In the back-stabbing court of Returned politics, it would be quite useful for Returned to read each others' emotions, even if only very occasionally and in emotionally volatile moments. And yet we do not see a single mention of "making sure his hair didn't go red with anger," or "Lightsong watched closely to see if he'd shocked Blushweaver into losing control of her hair," or "Blushweaver, her perfect calm destroyed by her capture, had lost control of her hair, which was a stark white."

The Returned who came back as a child (forget the name), never gets any mention of how he'd "quickly gained control of his hair as he rapidly matured" or anything of the sort.

Really, I'd just be flabbergasted if the Returned have an attribute like the Royal Locks without even the smallest hint about their hair changing based on emotion being given in the entire book either before or after Denth's death.

I'd presume the returned have a lot of experience absorbing breaths.

Not any real experience, since they only ever get one at a time, which is far, far below the "ecstasy" threshold.

Even if it was a unique power there's no reason to believe that only one returned could have it. It could be an ability of certain returned (although as noted, Vasher can change his hair color).

Vasher changes his entire body due to conscious mental gymnastics, with his hair being the very least of these changes and having nothing to do with his emotions, unless he was feeling particularly mirthful at that moment. I never said that Returned can't change their hair color, just that it is quite a different phenomenon from why/how the Royal Locks operate.

Yeah, I strongly agree with Nepene on this one. It's a fragment of a Divine Breath that's responsible for the Royal Locks, so if only one small part of a Divine Breath can cause that to happen, I imagine it can happen to someone with a full Divine Breath as well. As for why Blushweaver didn't freak out like that, it's probably because she died relatively quickly. Neither her nor Lightsong expected that they'd be in any real danger, and Lightsong only had the chance to yell a quick phrase before she was gone. Denth died relatively slowly. I think making him a member of the royal family makes things unnecessarily complicated.

Blushweaver and Denth both die by a surprise slicing of their throats (pg 532, 569), with Blushweaver specifically having time to have a "look of panicked terror in her eyes" (still no mention of hair color changing, where this would have been quite appropriate). In fact, line-count-wise, Blushweaver took a bit longer to die than Denth did, while both had discrete stages of "shock, terror, death/BioChroma fades."

Lightsong's hair didn't change during or after any of this either (despite his "watching in horror").

Also recall that we would know if Lightsong's hair ever changed at all because we're in his head and the royals can feel their hair change color even slightly, without having to look at it to confirm.

EDIT 2: Which would make it even less likely that the Returned simply have a "better" version of the Royal Locks, since they would most definitely know about it and have a comparable or superior "hair changing detection" ability for their own hair. We also never see anyone say to Siri that "oh, you're hair is like a stupid ignorant version of how the Returned change their hair," with even Treledees reacting with mild shock, if I recall correctly.

EDIT 3: Actually, on the point of Vasher getting the influx at the beginning of the book, that would have been a ludicrously excellent point to put in a "hair going <color> with uncontrollable pleasure": it wouldn't have disrupted the narrative at all and would have been a nice hint at Vasher's nature and the nature of the Royal Locks.

EDIT 4: Besides Vasher's hair changing color being appropriate in a "bookly" sense, we know that, no matter how much control an individual has over their emotions normally, you just can't shrug off an influx of Breaths over a cetain threshold--like how even "control-man" Vasher's hair should have changed color in the jail scene at the same time as he functionally lost control of his body.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Djerf]

The thing is that Denth has lived a loong time, probably under some very diffrent personas and looks. The very fact that it is a conscious effort that enables returned to change how they look makes it plausible that denth just lost control when he died because he didn't "know" how he should look.

Blushweaver on the other hand "knew" how she should look and the lack of a identity crisis meant that she didn't undergo the transformation.

The reason that only denths hair changes would indicate that hair is more "fluid" then the rest of the body and indeed hair do change colour naturally, it grows rapidly and we change the form of our hair often.

Another point to consider is that the royals can change the colour of their hair with only a small part of a divine breath this would indicate that the hair is more fluid then the rest of the body.

However this is writen on my phone and might be even less understandable then usually, is soo just dissregard this

[Nepene]

Yes, that's why I called it an "attribute," not an ability, since it is not an unmitigated benefit for those who possess it. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, though.

It's not especially a benefit though, as the author noted. It's a sign of the erratic self image of the princesses. A manifestation of a useful talent but not a sign of superior ability. The other returned wouldn't be expected to have this inferior flaw as a regular feature.

The ability of Returned to alter their appearance (either consciously or unconsciously) is not well-known in Warbreaker--at least not by the Returned themselves--to the point where Lightsong ponders at why Returned of different eras look differently based on contemporary conceptions of perfection (pg 320) (oh, Cognitive Realm! Shiny! That merits some additional threadery).

EDIT:

Lightsong goes on to wonder at why the Returned change their appearances:

"But there have been gods who were fat, he thought, remembering some of the pictures he had seen of Returned who had come before him. There was a time in our culture’s history when that was seen as the ideal. . . . Did Returned looks have something to do with the way society saw them? Perhaps their opinion of ideal beauty? That would certainly explain Blushweaver."

One would think that witnessing Returneds' hair change color/length either at will or accidentally would make this a bit less of a "perhaps" thought process for Lightsong.

The returned unconsciously mold themselves into perfect forms quickly and do not change subsequently, for the most part. I imagine some may discover their abilities and keep it to themselves as those who discover new commands do. I would not think that Lightsong would witness them changing form as I am saying, as Brandon said, that uncontrolled random transformations are not an ability. Why improve on perfection?

And indeed, this is another very clear sign of the power of the cognitive realm. We can mould physical objects into our desired forms.

Because of this complete and utter lack of knowledge about the ability of Returned to alter their appearance drastically at any given time, I very very seriously doubt that any normal Returned suffers from emotional hair-changing.

I agree.

Recall, also, that Siri had to consciously focus fairly hard to stop Treledees from reading her emotions based on "very minute changes of color," (pg 412) that Lightsong "could tell an ideal red from one that had been mixed with even one drop of white paint" (pg 49).

In the back-stabbing court of Returned politics, it would be quite useful for Returned to read each others' emotions, even if only very occasionally and in emotionally volatile moments. And yet we do not see a single mention of "making sure his hair didn't go red with anger," or "Lightsong watched closely to see if he'd shocked Blushweaver into losing control of her hair," or "Blushweaver, her perfect calm destroyed by her capture, had lost control of her hair, which was a stark white."

The Returned who came back as a child (forget the name), never gets any mention of how he'd "quickly gained control of his hair as he rapidly matured" or anything of the sort.

Yes, I agree. The returned are superior beings empowered by a shard.

Really, I'd just be flabbergasted if the Returned have an attribute like the Royal Locks without even the smallest hint about their hair changing based on emotion being given in the entire book either before or after Denth's death.

To me, this is like you saying you are flabbergasted that endlessly healthy people don't have an attribute like puking and headaches.

Not any real experience, since they only ever get one at a time, which is far, far below the "ecstasy" threshold.

Oh, I apologize, I was imprecise with my phrasing. I meant that the five returned, Denth, Arsteel, Vasher and co, they probably had experience taking lots of breaths. They were used to maintaining control through it. They weren't used to dying though.

Vasher changes his entire body due to conscious mental gymnastics, with his hair being the very least of these changes and having nothing to do with his emotions, unless he was feeling particularly mirthful at that moment. I never said that Returned can't change their hair color, just that it is quite a different phenomenon from why/how the Royal Locks operate.

The way Vasher does it is the superior way, transforming his body according to his wishes.

EDIT 2: Which would make it even less likely that the Returned simply have a "better" version of the Royal Locks, since they would most definitely know about it and have a comparable or superior "hair changing detection" ability for their own hair. We also never see anyone say to Siri that "oh, you're hair is like a stupid ignorant version of how the Returned change their hair," with even Treledees reacting with mild shock, if I recall correctly.

Your hair changing colors according to your emotions is not an attribute. As far as I can remember, it's never been used usefully for either of the princesses.

EDIT 4: Besides Vasher's hair changing color being appropriate in a "bookly" sense, we know that, no matter how much control an individual has over their emotions normally, you just can't shrug off an influx of Breaths over a cetain threshold--like how even "control-man" Vasher's hair should have changed color in the jail scene at the same time as he functionally lost control of his body.

We know that you can maintain some degree of self control when receiving breaths. If he had pissed or pooped himself he would have said. You can't control your bodily motions, but you don't lose all control.

[Kurkistan]

The thing is that Denth has lived a loong time, probably under some very diffrent personas and looks. The very fact that it is a conscious effort that enables returned to change how they look makes it plausible that denth just lost control when he died because he didn't "know" how he should look.

Blushweaver on the other hand "knew" how she should look and the lack of a identity crisis meant that she didn't undergo the transformation.

The reason that only denths hair changes would indicate that hair is more "fluid" then the rest of the body and indeed hair do change colour naturally, it grows rapidly and we change the form of our hair often.

Another point to consider is that the royals can change the colour of their hair with only a small part of a divine breath this would indicate that the hair is more fluid then the rest of the body.

However this is writen on my phone and might be even less understandable then usually, is soo just dissregard this

So you're suggesting that Denth's form is just more plastic than normal Returned because he's been changing so often? Perhaps, but this would suggest that he has less control over his hair (or even body) in the normal course of his life as well, which might have come up when he was getting emotional in any of his scenes (and didn't).

Also, I'm fairly sure that, Realmatically, your Cognitive aspect (which determines the form of Returns) really ought to become more inherently fluid when you change it often. Shai doesn't mention how an oft-forged table is easier to forge or anything of the like, and doesn't express any fear that testing stamps on herself or Gaotona opens them up for further manipulation in the long term.

Good point about the hair being intrinsically more malleable (it is the most tangential part of anyone's body, after all). I can buy that.

It's not especially a benefit though, as the author noted. It's a sign of the erratic self image of the princesses. A manifestation of a useful talent but not a sign of superior ability. The other returned wouldn't be expected to have this inferior flaw as a regular feature.

You have two options here: either Returneds' hair never changes against their will (either conscious or unconsciously) since they have a better version of the Royal Locks, or it is possible for their hair to change in cases of physical or emotional extremity.

Since Denth's changes when he dies, then there must be some threshold (it may be death and death alone, but some threshold) where Returned should lose control of their hair as a result of extremities. But, why should this function like the breaking of a dam? If Returned normally have complete unconscious control of their hair without even knowing that they're doing it, why should death cause them to suddenly be expressing a range of emotions with their hair, rather than just the one extreme emotion (oh no I'm dying) being the only one expressed?

The returned unconsciously mold themselves into perfect forms quickly and do not change subsequently, for the most part. I imagine some may discover their abilities and keep it to themselves as those who discover new commands do. I would not think that Lightsong would witness them changing form as I am saying, as Brandon said, that uncontrolled random transformations are not an ability. Why improve on perfection?

Such perfect public ignorance relies on constant perfect control by essentially everyone, assuming that death is not the only extremity which can cause hair-changing.

Further down, I noted that Hopefinder (the young returned) would have been an excellent time to note a Returned's inability to control his hair. As it turns out, he was Returned at age 2 (pg 310), which would have provided ample time (a year during which Hopefinder matured fully) for anyone to notice a varying hair colors based on strong childhood emotion.

People use makeup and hairstyling to change their appearance all the time for different events and outfits, with "perfection" defined by the circumstance. Siri changes her hair to match a dress. I image that some of the more vain female Returned (*cough* Blushweaver *cough*) would be quite eager to alter their hair or even faces and bodies based on how they felt that day and what they were wearing.

Yes, I agree. The returned are superior beings empowered by a shard.

...

To me, this is like you saying you are flabbergasted that endlessly healthy people don't have an attribute like puking and headaches.

As it turns out, it's possible that expressing your emotions to others is not an unmitigated evil. Situations could easily arise where a Returned would want to show the depth of their emotions, or maybe fake them, what with their perfect control of this unmentioned ability.

As I mentioned above, we see Siri change her hair color for fashion, which I think Blushweaver would be all in for, as opposed to Blushweaver's "superior" control not allowing her to change her hairs length or color at will.

Oh, I apologize, I was imprecise with my phrasing. I meant that the five returned, Denth, Arsteel, Vasher and co, they probably had experience taking lots of breaths. They were used to maintaining control through it. They weren't used to dying though.

Perhaps they could grow used to controlling their hair through such extremities (though still lacking the control to stop themselvs from falling into quivering balls in the middle of a swordfight so that they can be killed like fish in a barrel), but I'm not sure what they're motivation would be, since the majority of the time when they were on "Breath highs" was while they were tooling about as acknowledge Returned and wouldn't have to hide their changeable nature. They wouldn't have gotten much practice in any case (especially while in hiding), though, since getting a large amount of Breaths isn't exactly a daily occurrence.

The way Vasher does it is the superior way, transforming his body according to his wishes.

"Different" might be the word you're looking for here. It could be "superior," but Vasher's body-changing behaves in such a fundamentally different way for such different reasons with such different effects that you can't just say it's Royal Locks 2.0.

Recall that the Royals can change their hair color and length with conscious effort, as well as having unconscious changes. They do not, however, need to do "mental gymnastics" for the change to occur, "the ability was more instinctive than conscious—like flexing a muscle" (pg 385). This as compared to Vasher needing to fundamentally alter how he saw himself as a person in order to accomplish anything like that effect. I would say that Vasher loses out in this case, especially if his "superior" ability (the Royal Body?) should allow him to change his hair or even entire body "like flexing a muscle," which could have proved useful in the story.

I suspect that Vahser, and indeed all Returned, actually have a fairly limited range of "body options" available to them. Vasher just looks like a Returned version of himself when he changes, not a completely different person, and I think that Lightsong still looks the same. This is supported by Denth and Vasher not disguising themselves to the point where they can recognize each other on sight, despite Vasher, at least, having a very good reason not be be recognized.

This also goes against Djerf's "plasticity" argument, since that would mean that Denth did not, in fact, change his appearance on a regular basis, since it wouldn't matter and he might only be able to switch between "Returned" and "not-Returned" versions of himself. That means you still have to explain Blushweaver.

Your hair changing colors according to your emotions is not an attribute. As far as I can remember, it's never been used usefully for either of the princesses.

First of all, attributes don't need to be beneficial (Attribute: A quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something).

Second, the Royal Locks also allow relatively easy conscious control of hair. In the very scene that I referenced (though it was Bluefingers that time, not Treledees), Siri had her hair chopped off and then grew it out in order to avoid the need to have it combed. We also see Siri changing her hair color for the sake of fashion in another scene.

Third, why exactly would the Royal Locks be uniquely tied to emotions--while Returneds' hair is not--if the Royal Locks were only a weak manifestation of Returneds' abilities? That seems like a lot of extra (if sometimes harmful) functionality for only a watered-down manifestation.

We know that you can maintain some degree of self control when receiving breaths. If he had pissed or pooped himself he would have said. You can't control your bodily motions, but you don't lose all control.

You're dancing around what "control" means here. Unless you're going to adopt Djerf's idea of increased bodily plasticity, you still haven't explained why Denth's hair changes (based on his emotions as he dies, once again) while Blushweaver's doesn't.

Even if you jump on Djerf's wagon, you still have to explain why Denth's death functions like breaking a dam, as I said a higher up in this post: you don't lose control of your bladder or kick continuously just because your kick-reflex got triggered once, and all of your emotions shouldn't bleed through if the only reason you "lost control" is unadulterated a result of the emotion evinced by dying.

P.S. Though I suppose all emotions may be magnified as you die, which would mean, for you, that it's not the actual dying that does the trick, but instead just incredibly strong emotions (which I still think we'd have seen from Vasher a time or two). This all contingent on Djerf's idea working out.

Side note: more evidence of hair-changery being surprising: (pg 74)

Bluefingers was watching her with an inquisitive expression, his ledger held loosely in his fingers. “That is . . . fascinating,” he said. “The Royal Locks. We have waited quite some time for them to grace the palace again, Vessel. You can change the color at will?”

What an excellent opportunity to mention the ability of Returned to change their hair! If Returned are so very perfect with such a better manifestation of everything ever, chopping off and regrowing their flowing locks (which Siri saves considerable time by doing in this scene) instead of dealing with snarls and whatnot would probably be a common thing for them.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Windrunner]

Ok, I'd say that's about enough. I don't see the Denth debate getting solved anytime soon. We've moved away from my original theory pretty far now, so if you'd like to keep debating this, please make a topic of your own. I don't want my theory as some sort of epic battleground. If you'd like I'm even willing to move the topics discussing this to elsewhere for you.

If anyone else has something to contribute that directly relates to my theory, feel free, I'd love to hear from you

[Nepene]

Spoiler for the emperor's soul here.

There is one interesting thing that came out of this diversion.

But there have been gods who were fat, he thought, remembering some of the pictures he had seen of Returned who had come before him. There was a time in our culture’s history when that was seen as the ideal. . . . Did Returned looks have something to do with the way society saw them? Perhaps their opinion of ideal beauty? That would certainly explain Blushweaver.

Is who gets the Royal Locks determined by how the Royals view themselves and how they are viewed by their nation?

Brandon touches on your original debate, whether the way returned look was due to how society viewed them or how they viewed themselves.

You don’t need to worry about me talking,” Shai said, truthfully for once. “The more people who know of a Forgery, the more likely it is to fail.

That was a maxim of good Forgery: improve slightly on an original, and people would often accept the fake because it was superior.

People's expectations can weaken a forgery. Perhaps the more people who expect a transformation will work the easier it is. People expect the returned to look like golden Gods so it's very easy for them to look like that. Likewise with the royal family, people expect them to have magic hair and be divine.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Nepene

[Kurkistan]

@Windrunner

Sorry Windrunner . I guess our instincts kicked in.

That's a good point there, Nepene. I suppose that Returned probably access the "Returned" Form much like windows accessing a "Window" Form, to play into Brandon's conception of Realmatics as a mixture of oriental "everything has a soul" and Platonism (Writing Excuses on TES, 7:30).

-I'll probably start a thread on this a bit later.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Nepene]

I just found out something awesome which explains a lot.

"Brandon Sanderson Jung's philosophy was that all people are connected.

Question

Oh, like the dream psychologist?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe that collective unconscious was one of his terms. So it's not hive mind, but there is—there's something the Parshendi can tap into."

Perhaps the collective unconsciousness empowers the divine spark?

Edit. It's an awesome idea of Brandon's. A magical database of archetypal forms that anyone can tap for magic, making a whole load of things easier. Presumably people expect the royal family to be magical, so they are.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Nepene

[dyring]

Just one other point.

Denth was the only returned able to conciously change his appearance wich we saw die.

Blushweaver´s appearance may have changed, but it was not by her own control, simply regarding how she think she should look. And how she think she should look wouldent change cause she was dying.

On the other hand, if you conciously haveto control the way you look, like Denth likely needed to, then the panic of death and all that, is likely to have an effect;). So can´t see royal locks on Denth as something necessery. And there is nothing else speaking for him having them, or him having royal blood.

Edited November 14, 2012 by dyring

[lDanielHolm]

Likely the reason his hair changed color was because he was consciously able to change his shape, which he lost control of as he lay dying. The other Returned we see aren't capable of consciously controlling their shape; they simply become their ideal selves over time.

[Kurkistan]

If anyone wants to contest Denth's liniage, feel free to post a thread and send me an invite. Otherwise, I'll abide by Windrunner's wishes and not continue that line of discussion on his thread.