Spren and the Radients

[The Count]

OK, so I know that Spren threads are like water drops in a thunderstorm on here but I thought about this while reading some of the generally accepted Spren theories and rather than ressurect an old thread I thought I would start a new one.

I guess this must have been thought of already but here goes...

The most common theories for Spren seem to be theo following:

1/ They are the splinters of Honour / Tanavast.

I sort of agree with this although I am more inclined to believe that Spren are to Honour as Allomantic potential is to Preservation. A creation rather than unintended consequence.

I am sure Brandon has said that Tanavast was still around at the Prologue and we know that Spren predate this time (from Dalinar's vision of Nohadon).

I guess this still makes them splinters (after a fashion). The key point here is that I believe that Spren are of Honour.

2/ The second most common theory seems to be that Spren are attracted to people through actions / oaths similar to those espoused by the Knights Radiant. (the obvious example is Kaladin - Windrunner oaths / actions = attracts an honour spren).

I think this however is backwards. I think the Knights Radient were created to control Surgebinders. Not the other way around. I agree that the character of a person attracts a bond but that does not necessarily mean that the person is not selfish / proud / ambitions etc..

The main source for this is the Dalinar / Nohadon vision. Nohadon states that a surgebinder who "should have known better" causes a war just before the Desolation and "not all Spren are a discerning as Honour Spren".

My theory is that Surgebinders were "lighteyes" in Nohadons time. They were given positions of responsibility or ruled outright and being one made you a member of the aristocracy.

When Nohadon wrote the Way of Kings it was meant as an instruction for Surgebinders, essentially meaning Great power = Great responsibility. This has been misinterpreted by Dalinar to mean Kings / Rulers more generally.

This ultimately lead to all Surgebinders becoming KR.

The key point is that the words / ideals of the KR were created to channel / control the powers of surgebinders and do not in themselves attract a spren.

In the case of Windrunners, an Honour spren will, by its nature, be attracted to a man of good character. Other Spren Bonds... not so much, so required a code to enforce good character in those who attracted a spren.

I hope this rambling makes some sort of sense.

Peace.

P.S. Szeth is unique.... I have no idea how he fits in with this...

[dionysus]

Do you have an explanation then on why Kaladin goes nova when he speaks the second ideal of the KR? To me that indicates that the power of a surgebinder is tied to actions and oaths, not that the oaths were meant to reign in the power of surgebinders.

[The Count]

Do you have an explanation then on why Kaladin goes nova when he speaks the second ideal of the KR? To me that indicates that the power of a surgebinder is tied to actions and oaths, not that the oaths were meant to reign in the power of surgebinders.

Good point, I think the significance of the words themselves is less important than the realisation of their significance.

It the scene in question (the best of the book by far IMO) Kaladin finally takes responsibility for the death of his brother and comes to terms with what has been driving him all his life - the desire to protect. He takes responsibility for his growing power and the words serve as an affirmation of this (similar to vows at a weeding I guess).

I think he would still have leveled up if he had said "I will defend the defenceless" or some such. The specific words used I think came to him from his bond with Syl (who was bound to the KR in the past). The key is that the words were defined by the KR but it is the acceptance of the power / responsibility that is important.

Also remember that Honourspren are the most picky of the bond spren. We have no idea what 'oaths' the other surgebinders have to level up.

I think the 'oaths' for the KR orders are articulations of acceptance of certain aspects of their powers and not to the KR specifically. For a Windrunner (main charateristics of Protect / Leadership) a second oath about protecting makes perfect sense. But for a Stoneward (resolute / builder) it makes sense that the second oaths would be tied to the one of these. But you can still commit selfish / foolish acts and be resolute about it.

It could easily have been Nohadon's motivation to make all surgebinders act like Windrunners who must be inherently honourable to attract a spren in the first place (discouting our favourite Shin of course).

[dionysus]

I agree with your second post.

And I see your point about other orders of KR maybe needing oaths to direct their abilities in good directions. At this point we basically know nothing about the other orders other than what is revealed in Dalinar's visions, and it is one of the things I really want to learn more about in book 2.

Didn't Dalinar see the same 2 orders, windrunners and ???, in both the Recreance flashback and the one where he is a dad and fights along side them?

Edited October 12, 2012 by dionysus

[Windrunner]

I think you're referring to the Order of the Stonewards. It's not explicitly confirmed, but the Plate of the Radiants is described very similarly, so I'd say it's a safe assumption to assume that both Knights in amber Plate were Stonewards.

[hoser]

Good point, I think the significance of the words themselves is less important than the realisation of their significance.

...

I think he would still have leveled up if he had said "I will defend the defenceless" or some such. The specific words used I think came to him from his bond with Syl (who was bound to the KR in the past). The key is that the words were defined by the KR but it is the acceptance of the power / responsibility that is important.

Also remember that Honourspren are the most picky of the bond spren. We have no idea what 'oaths' the other surgebinders have to level up.

I think the 'oaths' for the KR orders are articulations of acceptance of certain aspects of their powers and not to the KR specifically. For a Windrunner (main charateristics of Protect / Leadership) a second oath about protecting makes perfect sense. But for a Stoneward (resolute / builder) it makes sense that the second oaths would be tied to the one of these. But you can still commit selfish / foolish acts and be resolute about it.

It could easily have been Nohadon's motivation to make all surgebinders act like Windrunners who must be inherently honourable to attract a spren in the first place (discouting our favourite Shin of course).

The book is composed of 40 stories plus the introduction that Dalinar quotes to Sadeas and the king. I think that the 40 sections correspond to the 2-5 oaths for the 10 Radiant orders. The introduction represents the shared first oath. Several of the 40 sections are presented in our "Way of Kings". So I think that Nohadon accepted the differences between the orders. I think the orders were all basically honorable with different emphases.

Once the oaths were discovered the surgebinders who had taken the oaths were much more powerful than those who did not. I don't think they would tolerate other surgebinders doing evil things with their powers. So the Radiants would have quickly become the only surgebinders.

I can't imagine that just saying the words would mean much if one were not committed at a deep level, which would be reflected by one's actions. Or maybe the spren would first have to be attracted by one's actions before the oaths would be significant.

Edited October 13, 2012 by hoser

[Vortaan]

Nohadon talks about finding a way to limit Surgebinders. Reading this thread makes me wonder if somehow he locked the full power of Surgebinding behind a tier of oaths. Looking at Syl and Kaladin, it's obvious that she wanted to help him get greater power to defend himself and his men. Kaladin's powers also start to accelerate once he learns and starts to accept even the first oath. I think in these discussions, the fact that Kaladin becomes noticebly better to control his abilities AFTER learning the first oath is overlooked too often.

[The Count]

Nohadon talks about finding a way to limit Surgebinders. Reading this thread makes me wonder if somehow he locked the full power of Surgebinding behind a tier of oaths.

That is an interesting thought. Isn't one of the death quotes about carrying a dawnshard (able to bind any creature) up some steps? I seem to recall people speculating that this was referring to Nohadon.

Could he have used that to bind surgbinding ability behind oaths?

Pure speculation but it could have limited the surgebinder's powers I suppose.

[Cayden]

I think that it has something to do with the symbiotic relationship between a surgebinder and his/her Spren. The tighter the bond between them, the greater the effect of said surgebinding. Take Shallan and the Truthspren... The greater the secret the stronger the bond. So maybe honorspren are similar, the stronger the oath the stronger the bond.

And the Bond's strength gives a greater ability to surgebind.

As for Szeth, I think his powers are somehow due to Cultivation and Shinovar.

[Cayden]

That is an interesting thought. Isn't one of the death quotes about carrying a dawnshard (able to bind any creature) up some steps? I seem to recall people speculating that this was referring to Nohadon.

Could he have used that to bind surgbinding ability behind oaths?

Pure speculation but it could have limited the surgebinder's powers I suppose.

Hmm That is possible, I think it was Kabsal who said that the Dawnshards were a kind of spren which helped mankind when they were first exiled from the Tranquilline Halls, It could be possible that they didnt fade until Tanavast died or that they are still around just choosing not to show themselves.

Im not so sure whether Surgebinders are limited as much as the power that created them is on the bench waiting for the Desolation or a Coach to teach them.

From everything we have seen, Surgebinding ceased when the Knights Radiant abdicated. So they no longer trained others in how to do it, so it died away, and with Odium sitting on the bench watching the grass on the pitch grow, there was no need for surgebinding to get off its own bench and ruin the grass.

[Vortaan]

Hmm That is possible, I think it was Kabsal who said that the Dawnshards were a kind of spren which helped mankind when they were first exiled from the Tranquilline Halls, It could be possible that they didnt fade until Tanavast died or that they are still around just choosing not to show themselves.

Im not so sure whether Surgebinders are limited as much as the power that created them is on the bench waiting for the Desolation or a Coach to teach them.

From everything we have seen, Surgebinding ceased when the Knights Radiant abdicated. So they no longer trained others in how to do it, so it died away, and with Odium sitting on the bench watching the grass on the pitch grow, there was no need for surgebinding to get off its own bench and ruin the grass.

You're thinking of the Dawnsingers, actually. I actually don't think they were spren, but I can see your point about just now knowing how to use their abilities. It's just odd to me that Kaladin instinctively learns to use Stormlight better after the second oath. Maybe Surgebinding is more instinctual than intellectual.