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Is Odium incomplete?


Lightflame

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(I really hope nobody has come up with this before.)

Alright, let me put my theory right up front: The Odium shard possessed by Rayse is partially splintered, only half of Odium, or some other variation of "Not the complete Odium shard."

I say this because (my quote skills haven't fully awakened) there was one chapter opening in The Way of Kings which said something like, "Once three reigned, but now the Broken One reigns." Since "Odium Reigns" is repeated at several points in the novel, it's fairly obvious (unless this is Brandon's plot twist wizardry) that Odium is "The Broken One". That's an odd name for an extremely powerful Shardholder (that's our name for them, right?). In Brandon's books, every little detail is significant, so a strange title for a character that is mentioned in one of the "Chapter Opening Foreshadowing Zones" should stick out like a sore thumb.

As for why and how the Odium shard was broken, I would like to implicate Odium himself as the mastermind. I think that Brandon once said that Odium's goal was to kill all the other Shardholders, while not changing his way of thinking. Could this goal have stretched back to when Rayse obtained the Odium shard? At first, Shardholders still have their own thoughts, but the Shard causes them to take on it's aspects and decays their minds. When Rayse first obtained the Odium Shard, is it possible that he broke a small part of it off so that he could retain most of his mind while also having it's godlike powers?

As for why he wouldn't take further Shards and simply break them, there are numerous possibilities. Maybe because he's a Shardholder, the effects of the other Shard would overtake him before he could break it. Maybe his breaking of the Odium shard wasn't completely successful, or had some unknown side effect, and he doesn't want to replicate it. Or maybe the Odium shard still has partial influence on his mind, and he doesn't want something other than hatred to be amplified.

Next, allow me to offer some faulty proof. If Odium's powers are so "great", then why haven't we heard anything about an attack on Scadrial? I'm not sure about this, but I think a complete Odium shard is strong enough to defeat Harmony. Why then, has Odium not done anything about Harmony, who could become a serious threat to his plans? Could the Odium shard not be strong enough to defeat Harmony, as a consequence of being broken? Or could there be other reasons, all relating to the broken shard?

I'll leave you to think on that. (Also, it leaves a plausible way for Odium to be defeated in the series.)

Edited by Lightflame
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(I really hope nobody has come up with this before.)

Alright, let me put my theory right up front: The Odium shard possessed by Rayse is partially splintered, only half of Odium, or some other variation of "Not the complete Odium shard."

I say this because (my quote skills haven't fully awakened) there was one chapter opening in The Way of Kings which said something like, "Once three reigned, but now the Broken One reigns." Since "Odium Reigns" is repeated at several points in the novel, it's fairly obvious (unless this is Brandon's plot twist wizardry) that Odium is "The Broken One". That's an odd name for an extremely powerful Shardholder (that's our name for them, right?). In Brandon's books, every little detail is significant, so a strange title for a character that is mentioned in one of the "Chapter Opening Foreshadowing Zones" should stick out like a sore thumb.

As for why and how the Odium shard was broken, I would like to implicate Odium himself as the mastermind. I think that Brandon once said that Odium's goal was to kill all the other Shardholders, while not changing his way of thinking. Could this goal have stretched back to when Rayse obtained the Odium shard? At first, Shardholders still have their own thoughts, but the Shard causes them to take on it's aspects and decays their minds. When Rayse first obtained the Odium Shard, is it possible that he broke a small part of it off so that he could retain most of his mind while also having it's godlike powers?

As for why he wouldn't take further Shards and simply break them, there are numerous possibilities. Maybe because he's a Shardholder, the effects of the other Shard would overtake him before he could break it. Maybe his breaking of the Odium shard wasn't completely successful, or had some unknown side effect, and he doesn't want to replicate it. Or maybe the Odium shard still has partial influence on his mind, and he doesn't want something other than hatred to be amplified.

Next, allow me to offer some faulty proof. If Odium's powers are so "great", then why haven't we heard anything about an attack on Scadrial? I'm not sure about this, but I think a complete Odium shard is strong enough to defeat Harmony. Why then, has Odium not done anything about Harmony, who could become a serious threat to his plans? Could the Odium shard not be strong enough to defeat Harmony, as a consequence of being broken? Or could there be other reasons, all relating to the broken shard?

I'll leave you to think on that. (Also, it leaves a plausible way for Odium to be defeated in the series.)

For one thing, Harmony has got one of the most powerful Intents possible. With both protective and destructive powers, he might be dangerous enough that Odium wants to save him for last. Also, it is possible that Odium hasn't attacked Scadrial because he's been too busy with his grand master plan to get rid of Honor for always and eternity.

On your other points, I suspect "The Broken One" refers more to a moral than a numinous breaking, especially since Hoid says that Odium "holds the most frightening and dangerous of the Shards."

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I think I have a plausible explanation for why Odium hasn't been on Scadrial (to our knowledge at least). Brandon has said that Odium's goal is to be the only one at his power level, so he has to take out the other Shards to do that. For millenia, Ruin and Preservation were all but gone from Scadrial, with Leras's mind dead and Ati's trapped. They weren't going to be challenging him anytime soon. On the whole scale of the cosmere, this whole Harmony thing has only been going on for 341 years or so. Odium's in full on attack mode on Roshar, he won't be turning his attention to Scadrial so quickly.

You could make the argument that he should have destroyed Ruin and Preservation utterly while they were weak, but I disagree. If you're in a fight, do you go to kill the unconscious guy (Leras) or the guy who got the weapon knocked out of his hands (Ati)? No, you go for the ones still able to fight, and Devotion, Dominion, and Honor must have been first on his hit list, with the possible exception of other Shards that he's Splintered in unpublished Shardworlds.

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There's not much evidence that reducing the power of a Shard increases the wielder's ability to remain themselves. Ati had a large portion of his power stripped away as atium and didn't seem to suddenly not want to Ruin things, or even associate himself as Ati. That said, I kind of like this idea as it could explain a connection between Shardblades and Odium.

Weird question though. Do Shards think of themselves as the people they were or the Intents they hold? And if it's the second one... does that play with their memories of themselves, pre-Shard?

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There's not much evidence that reducing the power of a Shard increases the wielder's ability to remain themselves. Ati had a large portion of his power stripped away as atium and didn't seem to suddenly not want to Ruin things, or even associate himself as Ati. That said, I kind of like this idea as it could explain a connection between Shardblades and Odium.

Staying yourself by reducing a Shard's power is actually irrelevant to my theory but that's a good point.

The relevant part is whether Rayse thought breaking his Shard would allow him to stay himself.

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What is Odium doing on Roshar? He seems to be bent on destroying everything on Roshar (the everstorm from Dalinar's visions). That is very unlike him if we consider that on Sel he was content with just splintering the shards and killing their holders. And even if he for some twisted reason wants to destroy Roshar, what is stopping him?? A little vague and slightly off topic but I think this is relevant to explain his "brokenness".

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Perhaps Odium himself has been shattered, or splintered, or imprisoned in some way?

Devotion and Domination seemed to be a bit at odds, so he may have been able to divide and conquer them. But on Roshar, Honor doesn't seem to be the sort to let one of the other shards fight Odium alone. Hence, there was at least a two on on (maybe a three on one). Odium was hurt, retreated, and had some of his power siphoned off. Rayse himself is still alive, but he needs to regain his power before moving on to greener pastures. Thus, the desolations. He's too weak to risk a frontal assault, so he's working through the creatures of the planet.

The shardblades would be the most likely candidate for the manifestation of Odium's lost power. They are destructive and seem to help fuel "The Thrill," which causes one to hate one's enemies.

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Staying yourself by reducing a Shard's power is actually irrelevant to my theory but that's a good point.

The relevant part is whether Rayse thought breaking his Shard would allow him to stay himself.

It's actually kinda relevant. We only see two examples of Shards at less-than-full power who are not, you know, dead. Preservation and Ruin. Out of the two, only one of them was in full possession of his consciousness: Ruin. And he was literally a broken Shard, in that his power was split off into atium and the rest of the Shard. However, I guess if Rayse had split off a chunk of Odium IMMEDIATELY after receiving it... it might work.

However, not sure if that works, the more I think about it. Or Odium is an extremely strong Shard. Otherwise killing 3 Shards seems a bit... crazy.

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There's not much evidence that reducing the power of a Shard increases the wielder's ability to remain themselves. Ati had a large portion of his power stripped away as atium and didn't seem to suddenly not want to Ruin things, or even associate himself as Ati. That said, I kind of like this idea as it could explain a connection between Shardblades and Odium. Weird question though. Do Shards think of themselves as the people they were or the Intents they hold? And if it's the second one... does that play with their memories of themselves, pre-Shard?

I think it's a bit of both, but quotes from Brandon say that the person becomes the Shard, he doesn't really seem to like using their names at all once they take up the Shard. The Letter states that "Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met.", so it definitely influences their thinking. Brandon also says that part of the reason Rayse Splinters Shards instead of taking them up himself is because he doesn't want to be influenced by holding them. Even after holding Ruin and Preservation for only a few hundred years, Sazed is already thinking more in line as "Harmony" than simply "I'm backing the good guy here.".

I got the impression that using your Shard in any to power a magic system would limit what you could draw of it (or through it, since I'm not clear whether they use the Shard itself or simply use it as a catalyst to channel the "power of creation"). Ruin and Preservation also put themselves/were put into the people of Scadrial, the Mists, the Well, and the Pits. Since they had nearly equal amounts of the Shards invested into things other than themselves, they were pretty much equal. The bits that were in people allowed people to access the magic system. This is true of all Cosmere magic systems created post-Splintering. I really don't understand how pre-Splintering systems like Lightweaving work or whether they're outside of Realmatic Theory.

Odium is powerful because Rayse doesn't invest himself into anyone or anything else, he keeps all of the Shard's power for himself. So I'm in the same boat as Reader in thinking that "broken" refers to Rayse's personality and morals than the state of the Odium shard. Of course, if he has invested himself into the Shardblades, I'm completely wrong.

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when the theory of odium being broken somehow came up, my thoughts went in the exact opposite direction from everyone else apparently. i immediately wondered how dangerous odium would be if rayse's identity became so fused with odium that he splintered away part of his memories - namely, of the time when he was human. this would sort of be like 'the broken' referring to his morals and such, but in a far more profound way. he became so much of odium that he hated even his own human self, and got rid of it. this way, he's still not investing anything, and actually strengthening odium itself. even a memory of humanity could carry the taint of morality and love.

this is a far more dangerous state of affairs, imo. one far more worthy of Hoid's pleading in the letter.

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  • 3 weeks later...

"Once three reigned"

There are three shards on Roshar, Honor, Cultivation, Odium.

So what if this quote is hinting at a higher force, something beyond Odium? Bavadin is the only likely choice for that though. Or it could possibly mean that all three got kicked out of Tranquiline Halls, rather than Odium having done the booting

I'm probably taking this in all the wrong directions.

Edited by Observer
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when the theory of odium being broken somehow came up, my thoughts went in the exact opposite direction from everyone else apparently. i immediately wondered how dangerous odium would be if rayse's identity became so fused with odium that he splintered away part of his memories - namely, of the time when he was human. this would sort of be like 'the broken' referring to his morals and such, but in a far more profound way. he became so much of odium that he hated even his own human self, and got rid of it. this way, he's still not investing anything, and actually strengthening odium itself. even a memory of humanity could carry the taint of morality and love.

this is a far more dangerous state of affairs, imo. one far more worthy of Hoid's pleading in the letter.

I don't know. Rayse was apparently a pretty awful person to start with. Splintering away some of his memories might actually have made him nicer, if you prescribe to the people are basically good theory. The most powerful bad guys are the ones that actually have some kind of way to see themselves as the hero.

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What I don't get is how odium, extreme hatred, has anything to do with the power of creation. Each of the other known shards make perfect sense:

Sel:Devotion-Dominion--Authority

Scadrial:Ruin-Preservation--Justice/Mercy

Roshar:Honor--Commitment

Roshar:Cultivation--Goal

Roshar:Odium--Doesn't Make Sense

Nalthis:Endowment--Structure

Even Ruin is not contradictory: things need to be resolved when they go wrong, but i don't see hatred being a motivator or asset to some godlike essence. It really is a broken one. I wouldn't be suprised if odium wasn't the original intent and the shard was corrupted somehow.

Edited by Turos
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...

Odium is powerful because Rayse doesn't invest himself into anyone or anything else, he keeps all of the Shard's power for himself. So I'm in the same boat as Reader in thinking that "broken" refers to Rayse's personality and morals than the state of the Odium shard. Of course, if he has invested himself into the Shardblades, I'm completely wrong.

Basically, I agree with this, with the minor exception of the Voidbringers. I do think that Odium invested the ten Voidbringers, perhaps a similar expenditure to what Honor did with the Heralds.

When Honor further invested the Radiants and maybe all the people of Roshar, he became weaker. Odium, due to the nature of his intent, could see how to render Honor's investment worthless in the distant future and eventually turn on an Honor weakened by his multiple investments. So Odium has invested in the Voidbringers, but with only 10, he has retained more strength than any of the other Shards that he splintered.

The Voidbringers, which he presumably hates, and who probably hate him also, exist only to corrupt, take over and destroy, so they are a very efficient investment.

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I wouldn't be suprised if odium wasn't the original intent and the shard was corrupted somehow.

Like...the Human intent corrupted the Shard's? I always wondered if a strong mind could do that.

The only way Odium makes sense is if he has a counterpart. Otherwise we can't say much about how he fits into all this.

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Unless it's why adonalsium's shattering is necessary. If you prescribe to the theory adonalsium became corrupt and, therefore shattered, perhaps it broke down into 16 base concepts, such that only those qualities which could achieve harmony with the others would come together to create utopia. Obviously, hatred doesn't play well with others, so the expectation would be exile to its own hateful existence. And of course, things have to go wrong if you want a good plot.

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And of course, things have to go wrong if you want a good plot.

That's true, but what would the balancer be? we have already seen a 'Love' like shard in Aona aka Devotion, but I suppose that was just an interpretation of the Korathi religion.

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Even Ruin is not contradictory: things need to be resolved when they go wrong, but i don't see hatred being a motivator or asset to some godlike essence. It really is a broken one. I wouldn't be suprised if odium wasn't the original intent and the shard was corrupted somehow.

I feel sorry for hate. It always gets a bad rap. It is a terribly powerful motivator, and can do quite a bit of good. The key is in hating the right things. Hate inequality, inaction, wrongs, etc. If anything, Honor strikes me as the proper counterpart to Odium. Together, they'd be proper motivation. That might explain why Odium's so focused on Roshar: Honor could be the shard he fears the most since it is the shard that would corrupt him the most.

"Once three reigned"

There are three shards on Roshar, Honor, Cultivation, Odium.

The problem there is that Odium doesn't play well with others. It is quite unlikely that at any point he shared authority with Cultivation and Honor. So, that quote probably doesn't refer to him.

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The problem there is that Odium doesn't play well with others. It is quite unlikely that at any point he shared authority with Cultivation and Honor. So, that quote probably doesn't refer to him.

Honor+Cultivation Ruled either Tranquiline together, or they had different worlds they controlled. Didn't WoK mythos mention a "Hell" of sorts somewhere in the Voidbringer stories? What if Odium reigned there? It never said they have to be working together or even on the same world. It could simply be that they reigned on connected worlds before something broke the peace.

Warning, slightly wacky theory above. Take seriously at own risk.

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  • 1 month later...

My apologies is this is off topic, already postulated elsewhere, or not the right place to post, but the thread got me thinking.

We often assume that the statement '3 of 16 ruled... now the broken one reigns... etc' means that the broken one is odium and he is in charge.

Has it been considered that the the broken one could in fact be still be Honour, in a dead yet splintered form essentially in conflict with the fellow splinters?

All the societies on Roshar seem to have their own view on honour, based on their own culture.

Has their individual ideas of how to live with honour in life been distorted by an individual splinter, or an external influencer - ie odium who then just sits back and lets peoples cultural differences lead them to self destruct while off world. (I am not sure Odium is on Roshar during TWoK but believe he is in transit on the way back)?

-The Shin have a clear view on honour (don't touch the rocks etc)

-The Alethi seem to find honour in the contest of war or general contest

-Even the Parshendi often seem to act with honour

-Kaladin and Dalinar are trooping back towards what seems to be the original take on honour held by the radients.

All these different views on Honour end up causing conflict between cultures and characters (just what Odium wants).

Perhaps Dalinar's 'Unite them vision' refers to trying to to get much more back together than just the Alethi and people of Roshar.

If you buy into the idea that the shard blades and plate are of Honour, then much of Roshar seems to be ruled by the lust to acquire shards, and shard holders do the ruling.

--

Anyway, who talks to Kaladin when riding the storm? Surely Honour, would not call Kaladin Child of Honour/Tanavast if he was in fact Honour? Would he not just say "My Child"?

This could be a splinter talking, but it probably more likely Cultivation, or can the shard (if not held) still talk to people?

Terrible theory and diversion I know, ahh - but its late here!

Edited by william_wallace
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