Theory on why Vin avioded Hoid *Minor spoilers for WoK*

[Nesh]

So in Chapter 27 of Hero of Ages Vin is out getting intel from informants Cett suggested in, I believe it was Fardex City and one of them was Hoid. Now Vin for some reason she couldn't figure out herself was uncomfortable approaching Hoid and decided not to talk to our favorite worldhopper. Now as for why Vin avoided him the answer in my mind is simple: Ruin, remember she was still spiked with her earring at the time.

We know from the imfamous letter in Way of Kings that Hoid knew Ruin (Ati) before he got his Shard. Now it stands to reason that Ruin kept his pre-Shard memories so my guess is he recognized Hoid and knowing the man guessed that Hoid would likely give Vin some clue to spoill the desolation of Scadrial and influencedVin to avoid him.

That's right Hoid sppoked Ruin or so I think. Although it makes me wonder what kind of information Hoid might have passed on to Vin if they had talked and how it would've affected things. Of course I could be completely wrong.

[Windrunner]

Wow, this is definitely something that I've never considered before, and to my knowledge, no one else here has either. It makes a lot of sense. My only hesitation is that in the Annotations it says that something about Hoid spooked her, which always implied to me that she sensed something alien about him. I guess Ruin could have been increasing her paranoia, just like he did in making her want to find the atium. Whether you end up being right or wrong, kudos for a truly original idea!

[Nesh]

Wow, this is definitely something that I've never considered before, and to my knowledge, no one else here has either. It makes a lot of sense. My only hesitation is that in the Annotations it says that something about Hoid spooked her, which always implied to me that she sensed something alien about him. I guess Ruin could have been increasing her paranoia, just like he did in making her want to find the atium. Whether you end up being right or wrong, kudos for a truly original idea!

I'm looking at the anotation right now and all it say about the brief encounter is and I quote:

Vin Avoids Hoid

Ah, and Hoid is in this chapter. Hum . . . wonder what he was up to.

[Windrunner]

My bad, it's not in the annotations it's from an interview.

AHOYMATEY (15 OCTOBER 2008)

Brandon, I just wanted to confirm that you did have a couple of cameos as Slowswift? Or was that mean to be someone else?

CHAOS

I'm pretty sure Slowswift is Hoid. The Ars Arcanum says he "bears a striking resemblance to a storyteller", which I take to mean Hoid.

BRANDON SANDERSON (16 OCTOBER 2008)

Slowswift is an homage to Grandpa Tolkien. A study of his personality will reveal why that name was chosen for him.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hoid appears in that same chapter, but Vin doesn't meet him. Something he does spooks her. She's just too darn observant for her own good.

FOOTNOTE

This is actually the first time Brandon mentioned Hoid.

Source

Clicking on that link will bring you to the Interview database. If you haven't already, you should check it out. It's got every Brandon interview we can get our hands on. It also has Robert Jordan quotes, because it is a joint thing with Theoryland. If you just want the main page you can click here. Plan for a lot of time. Also, welcome to the forums!

Edited April 11, 2012 by Windrunner

[Nesh]

My bad, it's not in the annotations it's from an interview.

Clicking on that link will bring you to the Interview database. If you haven't already, you should check it out. It's got every Brandon interview we can get our hands on. It also has Robert Jordan quotes, because it is a joint thing with Theoryland. If you just want the main page you can click here. Plan for a lot of time. Also, welcome to the forums!

First of all, thank you for te welcome. Rereading the section in the book I'm even more convinced in was Ruin-induced paranoia. All Hoid was doing was standing in an ally humming to himself, as Cett's instructions said he would be. Cett by that point was a fairly trusted ally Vin had no reason not to trust his informants. In the text it said that Vin couldn't plsce what it was that made her uncomfortable, it was just a feeling.

[Thought]

But Sanderson said that Hoid was doing something that spooked Vin, and that she is too observant. While Ruin may well have influenced Vin to be overly paranoid, there was at least a basis of some sort for that behavior. The question then becomes what Hoid was doing that spooked her. We're only told that he was sitting in the light ashfall and humming. I feel like the tune might be important, but have no justification for why that might be.

[Nesh]

But Sanderson said that Hoid was doing something that spooked Vin, and that she is too observant. While Ruin may well have influenced Vin to be overly paranoid, there was at least a basis of some sort for that behavior. The question then becomes what Hoid was doing that spooked her. We're only told that he was sitting in the light ashfall and humming. I feel like the tune might be important, but have no justification for why that might be.

Vin was spooked, I'm not denying that. Hoid can still do something that spooked Vin and have that spooking be because of Ruin's influence. Brandon says she was too observant but whatever it was that spooked her exactly Vin couldn't identify. So it was likely something very subtle, likely blown out of porportion by Ruin.

[ulyssessword]

My guess: Hoid was using magic of some kind (not any of the metallic arts), which Vin subconsciously detected with Bronze (she was burning it, right?)

[Nesh]

My guess: Hoid was using magic of some kind (not any of the metallic arts), which Vin subconsciously detected with Bronze (she was burning it, right?)

She had been burning it earlier nd there was no mentionof her extiguishing it. Cpuld Broze even pick up non-Allomantic pulses? What magic could he have been using. Awakening takes verbal commands so that's out. Nothing from WoK either. Maybe he was using AonDor to disguise his appearance like Raoden did, but there's no garuntee he could channel that off of Sel or at all. Then again Hoid doesn't follow the normal rules.

[Sweetness]

Hoid is supposed to be something called a Lightweaver. It's a completely different kind of magic, but there isn't much information as to what one can do with it.

Mind, this isn't technically canon yet. It comes from the unpublished story the Liar of Partinel. I believe it's been confirmed that this is the same Hoid, but I'm not 100% on it.

(Someone please correct me if any of this stuff is wrong)

[Nesh]

Hoid is supposed to be something called a Lightweaver. It's a completely different kind of magic, but there isn't much information as to what one can do with it.

Mind, this isn't technically canon yet. It comes from the unpublished story the Liar of Partinel. I believe it's been confirmed that this is the same Hoid, but I'm not 100% on it.

(Someone please correct me if any of this stuff is wrong)

He was also present when Adonalsium shattered, that could've had all kinds of side-effects/

[Windrunner]

She had been burning it earlier nd there was no mentionof her extiguishing it. Cpuld Broze even pick up non-Allomantic pulses? What magic could he have been using. Awakening takes verbal commands so that's out. Nothing from WoK either. Maybe he was using AonDor to disguise his appearance like Raoden did, but there's no garuntee he could channel that off of Sel or at all. Then again Hoid doesn't follow the normal rules.

We think you can, we know this much for sure.

We asked if it was possible to use bronze to Seek Feruchemy. He said it could be possible. If it were to happen, it was very hard, because the Inquisitors would like to be able to find Feruchemists a len ot that way.

There may or may not be another quote about general investitures but I can't find it. Basically Bronze detects ripples of spiritual energy (investiture) in the Cosmere. You can detect Shards with it because they're comprised of that same energy. With some specialized training I imagine it's possible. I wonder if Hoid was Lightweaving... But anyway they would probably be able to detect any investiture. Breath would probably make pulses, as would Stormlight being invested. I imagine with enough training you could probably even detect what surges are being manipulated. I imagine Elantrians would pulse constantly with the investiture from the Dor. It would just be extremely difficult. Vin has a bronze spike so she is stronger then regular, it wouldn't surprise me if she was subtly picking up on his magic. I wonder if Slivers always pulse as well.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Windrunner

[Nesh]

We think you can, we know this much for sure.

There may or may not be another quote about general investitures but I can't find it. Basically Bronze detects ripples of spiritual energy (investiture) in the Cosmere. You can detect Shards with it because they're comprised of that same energy. With some specialized training I imagine it's possible. I wonder if Hoid was Lightweaving

Wouldn't that have given off a pulse of some kind though? I mean Broze allows you to detect pulses of investiture. Seekers ust became a heck of a lt more useful. Now I'm wondering why the 17th Shard Recruited Demoux instead of a Mistborn, Seeker, or even Marsh to track Hoid. Unless they don't know about bronze's general detection ability.

[Windrunner]

Well I probably shouldn't have said pulse, it may not sound the same. Perhaps different magics sound differently, like buzzing or pulsing and other things. What we're saying is that Hoid was giving off Investiture pulses but Vin didn't have any of that special training. With her enhanced bronze she was barely able to sense it, but it was so subtle and different, she didn't know what was throwing her off.

Marsh is busy on Scadrial, he goes his own way. No guarantee he agrees with the Seventeenth Shard. I imagine Demoux can possibly atium compound, making him immortal. No Seeker could do that.

[Sweetness]

Marsh is busy on Scadrial, he goes his own way. No guarantee he agrees with the Seventeenth Shard. I imagine Demoux can possibly atium compound, making him immortal. No Seeker could do that.

That would help with the space travel.

[Nesh]

Well I probably shouldn't have said pulse, it may not sound the same. Perhaps different magics sound differently, like buzzing or pulsing and other things. What we're saying is that Hoid was giving off Investiture pulses but Vin didn't have any of that special training. With her enhanced bronze she was barely able to sense it, but it was so subtle and different, she didn't know what was throwing her off.

Marsh is busy on Scadrial, he goes his own way. No guarantee he agrees with the Seventeenth Shard. I imagine Demoux can possibly atium compound, making him immortal. No Seeker could do that.

I can see a couple problems with Demoux Atium-compounding. One Demoix had no Terris blood and twowhere would have gotten the atium to pull that off, wasn't must of it burned away in HoA? Would Sazed even keep the Pits of Hatshsin producing atium, that might weaken Ruin and let Preservation inflence him.

[Windrunner]

I can see a couple problems with Demoux Atium-compounding. One Demoix had no Terris blood and twowhere would have gotten the atium to pull that off, wasn't must of it burned away in HoA? Would Sazed even keep the Pits of Hatshsin producing atium, that might weaken Ruin and let Preservation inflence him.

Well we don't know how he did it, but atium compounding is one of the most likely options right now. We know he is immortal, because there is an interim of 300 years between The Hero of Ages and Alloy of Law, which happens around the same time as The Way of Kings. The only known way on Scadrial to live beyond you're average lifespan is atium compounding. We also know that several Inquisitors had Feruchemical atium spikes, Marsh got one if fact. Sazed also has kept an eye on all the old Inquisitor spikes, making the Pathian earrings out of them. There are also no more mistborn or atium mistings on Scadrial.

So is it really all that unlikely that Demoux got a hold of a spike and some atium? Sazed may have just gave him some, it wouldn't have to have been all that much. One bead can return you to childhood if used right. Demoux could have been chosen to protect Scadrial, after all, who better for Sazed to choose then one of his old crew mates? In short, it isn't proven or even inconceivable that Demoux is immortal some other way, it just seems that atium compounding is the easiest way for it to have happened. Does my logic make sense to you?

[Nesh]

Well we don't know how he did it, but atium compounding is one of the most likely options right now. We know he is immortal, because there is an interim of 300 years between The Hero of Ages and Alloy of Law, which happens around the same time as The Way of Kings. The only known way on Scadrial to live beyond you're average lifespan is atium compounding. We also know that several Inquisitors had Feruchemical atium spikes, Marsh got one if fact. Sazed also has kept an eye on all the old Inquisitor spikes, making the Pathian earrings out of them. There are also no more mistborn or atium mistings on Scadrial.

So is it really all that unlikely that Demoux got a hold of a spike and some atium? Sazed may have just gave him some, it wouldn't have to have been all that much. One bead can return you to childhood if used right. Demoux could have been chosen to protect Scadrial, after all, who better for Sazed to choose then one of his old crew mates? In short, it isn't proven or even inconceivable that Demoux is immortal some other way, it just seems that atium compounding is the easiest way for it to have happened. Does my logic make sense to you?

Yeah it makes sense, but for all we know Worldhopping involves some kind of time dilation so aging isn't a factor. There's a lot we don't know about worldhoping. Your theory is possile of course.

[CrazyRioter]

Hoid has some way of skipping forward in time (though he's also older in years actually lived then a normal person could manage), The Seventeenth Shard might have the same trick. As for Hoid doing some magic that Vin sensed and it freaked her, possible, but I don't see any evidence in that scene of Hoid doing anything magical so.....

Edited April 12, 2012 by CrazyRioter

[Nesh]

Hoid has some way of skipping forward in time (though he's also older in years actually lived then a normal person could manage), The Seventeenth Shard might have the same trick. As for Hoid doing some magic that Vin sensed and it freaked her, possible, but I don't see any evidence in that scene of Hoid doing anything magical so.....

Well if there was a magic involved it would probably be a magic we haven't seen before so we wouldn't be able to identifyit unless it was overt. It would be something subtle. The thing that bugs me is that Hoid is always very well informed about the people he comes across, almost scarily so.

The point of bringing this up is he would know about Vin's paranoia. So why would he do something that might spook her? He had no promblem talking with Elend in Terris after all. You would think Hoid would want to talk to one of the people most instrumental to securing Scadrial's survival. In reality she basically did, what 95% of the work, the other 5% spread amoungst the crew and even Ruin himself who actually sowed the seeds for his own defeat back in Book 1 by telling Vin to go back to Elend and Sazed basically playing cosmic Janitor (no offense to Saze) but I'm on a tangent now.

Now why would Hoid want to spook Vin?

1. He was doing something he didn't want Vin to know about for some reason, likely something on a Cosmere scale that would distract her from the fight with Ruin.
   
2. He didn't trust her because she as spiked.
   
3. Perhaps Demoux was already working for the 17th Shard and he was worried word of his presence would get back to him.
   

Of course it could be that Vin is just to paraniod for her own good but she usualy doesn't Spook without reason. This isn't like thinking Cett is a Mistborn after all. Which is why I think Ruin had something to do with it.

Hoid seeems to spend a lot more time on Scadrial than other worlds too or so it seems at the moment, He's a trusted informant in both Luthadel and Fardex City, for Kelsier and Cett respectively, trust takes time to build, he knws where the Well is/was. He appeared at the wedding in Alloy and several times in the Triloghy. I wonder if Scadrial has something vital he's looking for?

[Triasmus]

He's probably on all the planets all the time (well... except when he's on the other planets ). We just happen to have more mistborn books .

Edited April 12, 2012 by Lantern13

[Nesh]

He's probably on all the planets all the time (well... except when he's on the other planets ). We just happen to have more mistborn books .

I'm aware of that but at the moment it seems like Scadrial is the world he's investing the most in, except maybe Roshar.

[Commander Spoonface]

I'm aware of that but at the moment it seems like Scadrial is the world he's investing the most in, except maybe Roshar.

You could say it's his primary... investiture?

(Puts on Sunglasses)

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

[Aethling]

We might just be reading too much into her reaction. Remember, she was going in little sleep, creeping around an encircled city, looking for an admitted spy, AND she had a history of being stalked by some mysterious creature. Under those circumstances, who wouldn't be a little jittery. She knew by this time that even the most powerful mistborn are not invulnerable, and she was used to living by her gut. It might have been something really serious or it might just have been a little normal human reaction. Unfortunately, we will never know unless Sanderson actually states it outright, which he will probably never do just to keep up the speculation.

Most of his actions he has been more of a watcher/guider than taking any direct action on screen. Sanderson has stated he went into the cavern before Vin and Elend, but that was off screen.

Elantris, he helped smuggle in the weapons that had been provided.

Mistborn he has mostly just hung around the edges watching or giving information.

Warbreaker he gave Siri the information she needed to make her start considering the true nature of what was going on.

WoK is by far his longest appearance, but probably the main event was his conversation with Kaladin. The conversation at the end was more of just something to show what potential/power he has.

It is almost as if he is around checking the worthiness of the main protagonists in each series. He attended the wedding in Alloy, but was that to watch the wedding or to watch Wax?

[Nesh]

You could say it's his primary... investiture?

(Puts on Sunglasses)

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

lol. I almost typed something likethat myself.

We might just be reading too much into her reaction. Remember, she was going in little sleep, creeping around an encircled city, looking for an admitted spy, AND she had a history of being stalked by some mysterious creature. Under those circumstances, who wouldn't be a little jittery. She knew by this time that even the most powerful mistborn are not invulnerable, and she was used to living by her gut. It might have been something really serious or it might just have been a little normal human reaction. Unfortunately, we will never know unless Sanderson actually states it outright, which he will probably never do just to keep up the speculation.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but this is Vin. Her insincts are usually pretty reliable. Hoidwas no threat to her and under normal cicumstances I think under normal circumstancs sshe'd see that.

Most of his actions he has been more of a watcher/guider than taking any direct action on screen. Sanderson has stated he went into the cavern before Vin and Elend, but that was off screen.

Elantris, he helped smuggle in the weapons that had been provided.

Mistborn he has mostly just hung around the edges watching or giving information.

Warbreaker he gave Siri the information she needed to make her start considering the true nature of what was going on.

WoK is by far his longest appearance, but probably the main event was his conversation with Kaladin. The conversation at the end was more of just something to show what potential/power he has.

It is almost as if he is around checking the worthiness of the main protagonists in each series. He attended the wedding in Alloy, but was that to watch the wedding or to watch Wax?

I too have cotemplating that he's watching the heroes, perhaps for the inevitable conflict against Odium. Such a battle is likely to spaan all three realms and multipule worlds. I image, something like Vin Elend, Kelsier, Lightsong, and other fallen characters under the directio of their Shardholders taking action in the Spiritual Realm. Any of them still living fighting Odium's agenys in the Physical Realm. (Wax, Stormlight prtagonists, Elantrians?) and Hoid and perhaps the 17th Shard taking action in the Cognitive Realm. With them all coming together in the end for one final battle that would be something like the history of badasses in the Cosmere. Probably won't happen but a guy can dream.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Mistborn Jedi