Spren: An Interesting Comparison

[Odium's_Shard]

Before you start, yes, I am a 'nerd'. If you aren't, what are you doing here? In the words of Shivertongue: who let you in?

Now, on topic, interestingly at University today in a lecture, I got my teacher talking on the subject of quantum mechanics and a few of the foundation rules of it. Now, you'll probably find this terribly boring, but I decided to put together a little demonstration as to why I feel that spren are related to quantum physics.

Firstly, the experiment. A beam of individual photons is fired at a wall directly into the center, that has two slits on either side, which at the same size:

--------------------|

----------------------<-slit

----beam-----> | <center

----------------------<-slit

--------------------|

You see? Now, ordinarily, you'd think that light would just hit the center and nothing would happen. Wrong. Photons are particles, unlike light waves, and so the can move. So, oh, ok, they'd just go through the two slits and the journey to the paper behind and cast light in two dots, parallel to the slits, right? Wrong? Yes, actually. Instead, the light particles spread out, and they hit each other, which causes interference. Eventually you get a pattern that looks like continual bands of light and dark, and it looks somewhat like this:

Cool huh? Right, out with the nerdy stuff. In with the 17S stuff. So, when you don't actually observe the path that the photon takes (it has to choose one and only one of the slits, presumably), you get this effect. However, when you make this adjustment:

------------------------|

--------------------------<-slit

----beam-measurer> | <-center

--------------------------<-slit

------------------------|

ie when you add an implement that is capable of measuring the path of the photons, with someone there watching as the photon picks which side it went to (this experiment was originally done to measure tendencies of movement of particles, by the way, not for this exact purpose), you get different results. Instead, the photons alternatively picks a side, and then for the two dots of light at the end, that you would expect without the above fancy pattern. So, if you observe it, the photons act the same, uniformally. This implies that when unobserved/measured, the particles take boths sides at the same time, effectively splitting and then reforming on the other side, to make the fancy pattern.

This phenomenon has never been explained (as it defies all laws of physics, as do all the laws of quantum mechanics). and the moment I heard it, it immediately made me think of one thing: spren. And that interlude in which the two people observe it and noticed that it becomes a uniform pattern, and yet when unobserved, the spren seem to move about randomly.

Do you think Brandon used this experiment as an idea to base spren's movements around? Or is it coincidence. Do you think that spren move this way in all environments, not just Roshar? And what do you think to the theory in general, as in, as it takes place on Earth? Surely it is extraordinary? And what do you believe actually makes spren behave like this, other than the fundamental principle of quantum mechanics:

Observation alters the outcome of the experiment.

Similar to the old adage: If a tree falls in a forest, does anyone actually hear it? Or just see the dead tree and presume that it fell?

[name_here]

As I mentioned in a previous thread, no one has to actually look at the measurements in the Double-Slit experiment, they just have to be taken. The Spren experiment indicates that the figures must be written down.

[Odium's_Shard]

Does it? Or do they just write it down anyway, and don't notice that it's the fact they are being measured that alters the spren, not the process of notation?

EDIT: You know of the Double Slit experiment? I underestimated people's awareness of this experiment. It was quite popular at the time, but isn't taught anymore because its 'accepted' science. Hat's off to you for knowing the reference.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[name_here]

The experiment tested for that. The male ardent made and said three measurements, and the female ardent wrote the third measurement without having told him which she would write in advance, and the effects were instantly apparent to the male ardent.

EDIT: The double-slit experiment is probably the most widely known Quantum physics experiment. Most general-education physics classes cover Classical Mechanics, so the double-slit experiment is out of their official curriculum as it has negligible influence on interactions between macro-scale objects. Quantum Physics is most definitely accepted science, it's just not terribly applicable for most people.

General-education physics covers a number of the notable Classical Mechanics experiments, like finding the values of Columb's constant and the gravitational constant, and I assume Quantum Physics courses cover the double-slit experiment.

Edited March 26, 2012 by name_here

[Sweetness]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who noticed the Quantum Theory of Spren.

However, there is a difference between measurement and observation. Measuring the spren forced them into a constant shape, whereas under observation (meaning the two ardents watching them) their shape was fluid.

Not all types of spren change their shape, such as lifespren, which look like dust particles. It would also appear that some spren, like flamespren, change their shape randomly, maybe not deliberately. But larger ones, like windspren and Shallan's creativityspren (I can't remember the proper name) can change form at will.

This suggests a sort of spren intelligence hierarchy.

So what would happen, say if one were to measure a higher form of spren, like a windspren?

[Odium's_Shard]

I still feel that this was the basis for the spren-observation phenomenon, with a few edits so that Brandon wasn't fully copying the original theory, ie, the addition of the need for the notation of the observation. But then it has been theorized that the connection to the spren Cognitively causes them to conform to certain patterns.

[Sweetness]

It could well be. I remember at a signing a few years ago (the WoK tour, actually) someone asked Brandon if he read sociology texts and he replied "I read everything."

[Odium's_Shard]

It wouldn't surprise me. I'm more interested in the psychology side of things, which is what lured my interest in quantum mechanics. After all, what better way to disturb the human mind than to meet something it cannot fathom? Also, the fact that things exist that we cannot control or even understand in the slightest, that challenge every rule we have ever known, makes for interesting theological contradictions within the human ethos. Limits the powers of 'anthropocentralism'.

[Zas678]

Brandon has said that he likes his magic "with one foot in science and another in wonder."

Also, I know that I've been taught the dual-slit experiment in my Freshman chemistry class at BYU. Brandon attended BYU 10ish years ago and was originally a science major before changing to writing, so he would've taken a similar class when he went here. So there's a good chance that he was taught it as well.

I feel like this attribute of spren (jokingly called the Geranid's Certainty Principle) is an antithesis to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The Uncertainty Principle is simply that the more that you know about a particle's position, the less you know about its momentum.

Geranid's Certainty Principle is that the more you know (and have recorded) about an object's size, the more the spren adheres to that recorded size.

And personally- I believe that Geranid's Certainty Principle only definitively works for spren without a significant cognitive presence (aka they is really dumb). I believe that the act of recording the information "overrides" the cognitive mind of the spren, so that it then stays consistent to it's current action (it stays the same size as you saw it being).

[Sweetness]

This begs the question; How does the spren know it's been recorded? Could this be evidence of the connectivity of the Cognitive Realm?

(Also, as an aside, if I ever use the word "connectivity" again, please shoot me.)

[Odium's_Shard]

Interesting, Zas. So you're saying that because the spren has a bare drop of Cognitive presence, the moment you introduce your own its 'memory' and 'instructions' as such from the Spiritual realm are overridden to incorporate your own observations?

[Chaos]

Ooo, a thread on quantum mechanics! I have lots to say on the subject.

You know, it just occurred to me that the spren should definitely "collapse" to a defined value, Realmatically. We know that the Physical Realm limits the ways the power of creation can be accessed. For Allomancy, it's into sixteen metals. This "limiting" is sort of how in quantum mechanics, when a particle is subject to a potential well, it can't receive any energy value; its energies are discrete.

So for spren, something in the Cognitive or higher Realm, it seems to me that the Physical Realm can limit those higher Realms in similar ways. In this case, the shape of spren itself--its actual presence in the Physical Realm--is limited.

Let's talk some quantum mechanics.

So, if you observe it, the photons act the same, uniformally. This implies that when unobserved/measured, the particles take boths sides at the same time, effectively splitting and then reforming on the other side, to make the fancy pattern.

This phenomenon has never been explained (as it defies all laws of physics, as do all the laws of quantum mechanics).

Now, hold up. "Defies all laws of physics" is a much stronger statement than is actually happening here. What's happening here is that, before "measurement" (or an "event", if the word measurement isn't your bag of tea) a particle has a wavefunction which is a distribution of possibilities. This wavefunction can interfere with other wavefunctions, because it's a wave, and waves can interfere with one another. The only difference is these waves are matter waves.

After measurement comes the wavefunction collapse. That wavefunction--what was formerly a distribution--"collapses" to the single value. The wavefunction is no longer a distribution. or rather, an infinitely narrow distribution, centered at the measured value. Thus, in the instance of the double-slit experiment, in the unmeasured case, those wavefunctions interfere with each other, which gives you those cool patterns. But in the measured case, the photons' wavefunctions have collapsed and have an incredibly narrow distribution. That means they simply aren't wide enough to give you any interference patterns. The double-slit experiment is one of the great experiments which shows that wavefunction collapse is a real, observable thing. You can also do similar things with particles decaying, and measuring one of the created particles' spin before the other.

While it is true that physicists do not understand why wavefunction collapse happens, nor what constitutes a "measurement", wavefunction collapse fits very nicely in the framework of quantum mechanics. You need some mechanism to describe the probability interpretation of quantum mechanics and how you can actually get well-defined values from experiment, which is what you'd expect classically. This isn't the only interpretation of quantum mechanics--there are others, like the many-worlds interpretation--but you do need such a mechanism to explain how you can actually measure things and be sure you actually got a true measurement.

Thing is, quantum mechanics wasn't made one individual. As the preface in my Quantum Mechanics book says,

Unlike Newton's mechanics, or Maxwell's electrodynamics, or Einstein's relativity, quantum theory was not created--or even definitively packaged--by one individual, and it retains to this day some of the scars of its exhilarating youth. There is no general consensus as to what its fundamental principles are, how it should be taught, or what it really "means." Every competent physicist can "do" quantum mechanics, but the stories we tell ourselves about what we are doing are as various as the tales of Scheherazade, and almost as implausible.

(Griffiths is an excellent writer; I would recommend his textbooks to anyone, but he can get very mathy. But if you want a nice physics textbook to read, Griffiths' particle physics text is good, and you can get through the first five chapters with virtually no math knowledge)

Why am I saying this? Just because I take issue you saying that wavefunction collapse "defies all laws of quantum mechanics." That's not entirely accurate.

Sorry. I don't mean to break out Physicist Chaos (wow, that sounds like an awesome supervillain, doesn't it?). I totally agree with your point about the idea that Brandon got this spren idea from the concept of wavefunction collapse. But! I will correct your quantum mechanics if I must

For you non-physics people, what is happening in wavefunction collapse is that, prior to measurement, a particle does not have a specific position (or, well, we need not just say "position." It could be a number of properties that you are trying to measure, like angular momentum). It instead has a distribution of possible positions, which are described by the particle's wavefunction. Once you measure, now the particle has a defined position. In a sense, you have defined a property onto the particle--a position--where it did not have one previously. Weird, huh?

I feel like this attribute of spren (jokingly called the Geranid's Certainty Principle) is an antithesis to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The Uncertainty Principle is simply that the more that you know about a particle's position, the less you know about its momentum.

Geranid's Certainty Principle is that the more you know (and have recorded) about an object's size, the more the spren adheres to that recorded size.

Can we name it something other than Geranid's Certainty Principle? Comparing it the Uncertainty Principle is most definitely a false analogy, because this "certainty principle" has much to do with measurements defining a property on a spren that it didn't really have before.

The Uncertainty Principle is only cursorily related to wavefunction collapse. What the Uncertainly Principle says, precisely, that there is a lower bound to the product of the variance of the distribution of position and the variance of the distribution of momentum of a particle. This doesn't mean that you can't precisely know one of those properties, it just means you can't know both position and momentum to infinite precision. Actually, there's more than one Uncertainty Principle, and you can get one for any two observables whose operators don't commute (specifically, the first relation in that link. The Energy-time uncertainty principle is unrelated), but that doesn't much matter here.

While the Uncertainty Principle is a direct consequence of the statistical interpretation of quantum mechanics, and thus has some relation to the idea of wavefunction collapse, what the Uncertainty Principle is more about is dealing with distributions of particles.

However, with spren--call them spren mechanics, or something spiffy like that--it's clear they have more relation to wavefunction collapse, in that measurement bestows a defined property to what you are measuring. The Uncertainty Principle is independent of that. We should name it not the "Certainty Principle," but something like "sprenfunction collapse," because this property of spren deals much more with collapse than whether or not you can simultaneously find observables.

tl;dr: "Ow ow Chaos hurts my brain, please go away Chaos, and apparently we should name this property of spren to something with 'collapse' in its name, even though 'Certainty Principle' sounds hilarious. Owwww!!!"

[CrazyRioter]

so if there's a cognitive interaction going on, why does it require that the measurement be written down in order to have an effect? I suppose it might be similar to how Commands in Awakening require both mental focus and the spoken word. Only for some reason speaking isn't enough in this case, you have to write it down........

Brandon has hinted that that little experiment is important, but I suspect it may take quite a few books before we find out why.

[Aradel]

Physicspren are watching you all.

I'm impressed with myself that I managed do catch most of that without ever having taken physics, but I didn't fet all of it. Layman's terms please?

[Voidus]

I have to agree with Chaos on this one, it's almost certainly based on wavefunction collapse probably with some realmatics thrown in. When we get all of the notes on these someday I am going to have the biggest nerdgasm

Edited March 27, 2012 by Voidus

[Chaos]

Physicspren are watching you all.

I'm impressed with myself that I managed do catch most of that without ever having taken physics, but I didn't fet all of it. Layman's terms please?

I can certainly explain any of it, but it may be easier if you asked which parts confused you. Because a full intro to quantum mechanics would take quite some time

EDIT: Not that I'm not known to explain such things.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Chaos

[Odium's_Shard]

I completely accept that saying it defies all 'laws of physics' is an over statement as such. But in effect, the process of you describing that it can't break the laws of physics that we know nothing about just proves, as it inevitably was, that there are some bits of physics that are almost in-explainable to a common mechanic, then instigating that the process is a phenomenon. Also, I reconcile this point and adjust my argument to say:

'Is defined by laws that we have little conception of.' Its been a while since I dealt with quantum mechanics in full swing, as I am currently dealing with sociology and psychology and its interactions with things such as physics (wierdly, they have a lot in common...). Please don't hesitate to correct me, as I am a little rusty and have no reference save my memory.

[name_here]

Okay, distinction time:

Quantum Mechanics is the physics of interactions between individual atoms and sub-atomic particles

Classical Mechanics is the physics of interactions between larger objects. The term may also exclude relativity.

The math of Quantum Mechanics is actually somewhat well-understood, although it is generally believed that particles exist which have not yet been detected. Why this math is correct is far less well understood, but all theories explaining the Double-Slit experiment that have serious support produce the same results because those results are the ones that occur. Currently, there is no unified set of rules that can be applied to both without modeling an interaction between large objects as the interaction of 3 * 10^23 or more atoms for eighteen kilograms of water.

Edited March 27, 2012 by name_here

[Odium's_Shard]

The 'set of rules' is what I meant by 'to a common mechanic'. Sorry to cause confusion between 'classic mechanic' and the expressional use of a 'common mechanic', as in a single known operating system, which you point out in your post still doesn't exist, even if we understand the math behind it.

[Satsuoni]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who noticed the Quantum Theory of Spren.

Well, neither he , nor I am the first: see my post on related topic, and there are many other before me, which I can't find, and I am pretty sure Brandon himself mentioned it (should be on Brandonthology, which I also can't find).

Also, the double slit experiment as shown above on the animated picture may also refer to the wave double slit experiment, which is taught in middle/high school, so...

BTW, Chaos, did you know that photon does not have a well-defined wavefunction in classical quantum mechanics? Since it moves with a speed of light, and all, so the relativity takes over (and fails miserably).

Now, as for the spren.. Um. My above post summarizes my POV nicely. I don't think I have much to add.

[name_here]

On the realmantic implications, the writing reminded me of the Vorin practice of burning prayers. As one of the characters pointed out, it seems odd that a supposedly all-powerful entity needed prayers burned in order to recieve them (or something like that). But we know the Almighty is a Shard, and Ruin and Preservation were unable to read anything written in metal, which was integral to the Scadrial magic systems. So if prayers need to be burned because Honor couldn't see writing, that would imply writing is central to at least some of the Roshar magic systems. And the effect on the spren is clearly a result of writing, simply making and saying or hearing measurements has no effect and it's not a matter of the person actually looking at it being aware of the writing. Also, the effect ceases if the measurement is erased.

The primary issue with this theory is that prayers are in ink, while the experiment was conducted in chalk on slate, but Honor might not follow exactly the same rules as the Scadrial Shards and have the blinding effect partially based on content instead of material.

[Voidus]

That's a really good insight! I never made the connection about it possibly being honors focus.

[Dros]

On the realmantic implications, the writing reminded me of the Vorin practice of burning prayers. As one of the characters pointed out, it seems odd that a supposedly all-powerful entity needed prayers burned in order to recieve them (or something like that). But we know the Almighty is a Shard, and Ruin and Preservation were unable to read anything written in metal, which was integral to the Scadrial magic systems. So if prayers need to be burned because Honor couldn't see writing, that would imply writing is central to at least some of the Roshar magic systems. And the effect on the spren is clearly a result of writing, simply making and saying or hearing measurements has no effect and it's not a matter of the person actually looking at it being aware of the writing. Also, the effect ceases if the measurement is erased.

The primary issue with this theory is that prayers are in ink, while the experiment was conducted in chalk on slate, but Honor might not follow exactly the same rules as the Scadrial Shards and have the blinding effect partially based on content instead of material.

Makes sense to me. Honor binds things, correct? The spren is bound by the written word, like a contract using Honor's power to enforce it. Perhaps Honor is less a kickass Cosmeric Knight binding beings by chivalry or a warrior's honor and more of the Cosmere's lawyer and contract writer. Maybe the Oathpact is written down somewhere and whatever it was written on is literally broken.

[Voidus]

I'm really liking where this is going, someone whould make a theory on this so I can espouse it. I definitely like that part about the Oathpact, which is a possible explanation as to why the KR gave up, without that to bind them the spren began to start changing again and the KR may have been losing abilities? Not sure but there is definitely a lot of potential here.

[Odium's_Shard]

On the realmantic implications, the writing reminded me of the Vorin practice of burning prayers. As one of the characters pointed out, it seems odd that a supposedly all-powerful entity needed prayers burned in order to recieve them (or something like that). But we know the Almighty is a Shard, and Ruin and Preservation were unable to read anything written in metal, which was integral to the Scadrial magic systems. So if prayers need to be burned because Honor couldn't see writing, that would imply writing is central to at least some of the Roshar magic systems. And the effect on the spren is clearly a result of writing, simply making and saying or hearing measurements has no effect and it's not a matter of the person actually looking at it being aware of the writing. Also, the effect ceases if the measurement is erased.

The primary issue with this theory is that prayers are in ink, while the experiment was conducted in chalk on slate, but Honor might not follow exactly the same rules as the Scadrial Shards and have the blinding effect partially based on content instead of material.

This is clearly hinted at during the entire cultural description of Roshar, now that you mention it. I always knew that writing was important in Roshar, but I had assumed in a cultural way only.

Think about it: only women in Roshar can write. Men could write, but it is heavily discouraged. I had originally assumed that this may be down to the warrior mindset of the Alethi nation at large, but maybe it is not so. Maybe only women can write, because if MEN were to write something, there may be unpredictable results due to impacts within Honor's remaining pieces.

Say a man, his name is Szeth (random name, no connotations at all...) was to write on a slip of paper: 'Give me the ability of a Windrunner. I shall protect those who cannot protect themselves.' If they burnt it, or otherwise interacted within Honor's remains, would it come true? Is this how our random man, Szeth, came by his Windrunner powers, if not by the bond?

However, the 'written word' theory deteriorates a bit when it is mentioned that Kaladin only has to speak aloud the Oath to 'bind' his will to Honor's power. However, I should say that this may be because Syl hears it (she seems to be necessarily present) and notes it down Cognitively, which sends the 'written word' from Physical, Kaladin's voice, through Cognitive, Syl's notation, to Spiritual, the unlocked power invoked by the words.

I thin we're onto something.

Also, @Satsuoni, I am aware that the animation I used is of the double slit wave experiment, which is very basically used to teach interference to GCSE classes (in Britain, at least, my brother is doing it), but when I researched this wave variant, I was prompted to as my lecturer about the photon variant. In order to convey to you what the interference pattern looks like, I was forced to use this animation off of Wikipedia that described the wave variant, but the interference pattern (assuming the photon is unobserved) is the same regardless. I just wanted to show everybody what the interference pattern looks like, as it is hard to put it into words. Sorry from a technical and accuracy point of view.