ChayShan

[Tulir]

So, my only other friend that has read the Cosmere books developed a theory about ChayShan, and with his permission, I will post it here with some additions made by me to his theory.

This is going to use the idea that if two Shards cooperate on a planet to make humans or allow humans to gain sentience, there is the first Shard's magic system, the second Shard's magic system, and the magic system that came from their cooperation. We can easily see this on Scadrial, with Allomancy as Preservation's, Hemalurgy for Ruin, and Feruchemy as the balance. It might not follow this pattern, and I will address this at the bottom of my theory. For this I will take ChayShan as the balance magic.

So we know that ChayShan is like Tai Chi, a group of stances similar to a dance meant to help to your body. Shuden performed it when Sarene was teaching the women how to fence.

"We call it ChayShan," Shuden explained. "It's a kind of warm-up--a way to focus your mind and body when preparing for a battle."

Feruchemy required a user to be weak or disabled for a time in order to draw it out later. ChayShan might be slightly similar to Feruchemy by the power from self aspect. It could be that ChayShan taps into both Dominion and Devotion then uses them to achieve better balance, speed, endurance and strength to access later on.

As he looked. Lukel noticed a figure standing near the back of the group, hidden by bodies. He was moving slowly, his hands waving in front of himself.

Shuden? Lukel thought. The Jindo's eyes were closed, his hands moving fluidly in some sort of pattern. Lukel watched his friend with confusion, wondering if the Jindo's mind had snapped: then he remembered the strange dance that Shuden had done that first day in Sarenens fencing class. ChayShan. Shuden moved his hands slowly, giving only a bare hint of the fury that was to come. Lukel watched with growing determination, somehow understanding. Shuden was no warrior. He practiced his dance for exercise, not for combat. However, he was not going to let the ones he loved be murdered without some sort of fight. He would rather die struggling than sit and wait, hoping that fate would send them a miracle.

Then, after the battle, we get this from Raoden.

That wasn't the only thing that bothered him, however. There was also the question of Shuden's strange ChayShan dance. Onlookers, including Lukel, claimed that the Jindo had managed to defeat one of Dilaf's monks alone—with his eyes closed. Some even said they had seen the young baron glowing as he fought.

So my theory is that ChayShan is tapping into the Dor and the Skaze through some weird balance that is created by the dance.

And now if ChayShan is not the balance magic. Brandon Sanderson said that Skai gets the Skaze, not a magic system, and they are like evil Seons. Because Skai doesn’t get a magic system, there really couldn’t be a balance magic.

Raoden was beginning to suspect there was more than one way to access the Dor—far more.

If Raoden was correct about this, then ChayShan might just be drawing a type of Aon in the air while dancing, that can then be accessed later for the power. This would make more sense because if ChayShan was the balance magic, Dakhor would be the other magic system and it seems to function on the same principles of AonDor.

Well, this is my longest post yet, but I think I will be posting one close to this length on the Nahel Bond soon. Hope everyone likes this theory.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tulir

[Windrunner]

Do you have a quote on Brandon saying that Dominion doesn't have a magic system? I am fairly certain that the monks of Dakhor tap into his power. Devotion has Seons and AonDor after all, so it seems odd that Dominion would get the skaze but nothing else. My own personally theory about balance magic systems is that they occur when complementary Shards are on the same world.

[Commander Spoonface]

Well, to determine if ChayShan is a balance magic, we can first look at how the magic of Domination and Devotion compare.

• Aon Dor- Aon Dor does very similar things to the Dahkor Monks, apparently. The difference seems to be how you become able to use it. It has been postulated that one undergoes the Shaod as a result of being Devoted to something.
  
• Dakhor Monks- On the other hand, Dakhor Monks can be created. It is possible that they gain these powers as a result of being Dominated.
  

It follows that if ChayShan is a balance magic, it does both or neither. The best example we have right not is Feruchemy, which shares a focus with Allomancy and Hemalurgy, but does not Preserve or Ruin. The effects seem to cancel.

Perhaps it follows that ChayShan shares a focus, form, with the other investitures of Sel, but does not Dominate or Devote.

[Aradel]

Or both. Martial arts are often about self-mastery. That has a foot in dominion. And kung-fu teaches emotional and spiritual balance, usually by learning to be selfless. That has a foot in devotion.

So a martial art with the forms and motions as symbols makes a perfect 'balance' magic between the two.

[Windrunner]

That's how I always saw Feruchemy, with a foot in both camps. I remember not everyone agreed with me, which was okay, but I still believe that Preservation is what allows you to temporarily store attributes, and Ruin was what moved them to the time you tapped it so it could be Ruined, and it also lost some power because of his touch on it. There had to be a cost, in my opinion.

[Aradel]

I think I remember arguing with you about that. I still think it's the other way around with Ruin taking away your attributes, and Preservation restoring them to you...

It could work either way, but the important thing is having that "foot in both camps" like you said. I'm also considering surgebinding as a joint system at the moment, between Honor and Cultivation.

[Tulir]

Well, I remember reading a quote that Skai didn't have a magic system, but I can't find it now. This could be me being incompetent and nott being able to find something, or me misremembering. Zas, come here!!! Please.

[Commander Spoonface]

I always thought it was weird that Preservation's magic system essentially adds energy. After all, in the trilogy it actually says that Preservation couldn't create anything without Ruin, only keep it the way it is.

To me, it makes more sense for Feruchemy to be Preservation's magic system and Allomancy to be balance... Hmmm...

[name_here]

Adding energy counters entropy, which makes things fall apart over the long term.

[Triasmus]

The energy is being taken from the power of creation. there's no "additive" in it.

[Windrunner]

Allomancy is of Preservation, this is certain. Intent is only important in how the power are obtained, not what they do with the energy. Chaos has talked about this a lot, it was in the Principle of Intent I believe, and Brandon has specifically confirmed it.

About Feruchemy:

I think I do remember debating it with Goradel's Nephew. I still maintain my position. The way I see it, if Preservation gave Feruchemists power, why not all of it? Why have it decay when you draw too much? It would make more sense if you got it all back. Also having energy destroyed and then recreated seems odd. I personally believe it to be more elegant if power is never destroyed.

[Chaos]

That's how I always saw Feruchemy, with a foot in both camps. I remember not everyone agreed with me, which was okay, but I still believe that Preservation is what allows you to temporarily store attributes, and Ruin was what moved them to the time you tapped it so it could be Ruined, and it also lost some power because of his touch on it. There had to be a cost, in my opinion.

Huh. I don't remember reading this before, but if I did, I'm a lot more receptive to that idea now.

I always thought it was weird that Preservation's magic system essentially adds energy. After all, in the trilogy it actually says that Preservation couldn't create anything without Ruin, only keep it the way it is.

To me, it makes more sense for Feruchemy to be Preservation's magic system and Allomancy to be balance... Hmmm...

What Windrunner says below is true. Think about it this way, and separate the effects of the magic from how you get it. If you think about Hemalurgy, its effect is really not Ruinous at all--in fact, it gives you more power, and is additive in a way. However, how you get the power is certainly destructive and ruin-like.

As it turns out, a magic being "of Ruin" or "of Preservation" or "of Honor" only means that the way you access the power is in line with the Shard's intent. This is (essentially) what the Principle of Intent says, though I need to clean up and revise it for clarity. But we see this working all the time. For Awakening to work, you have to Endow the power--this is separate from the actual effects of the Commands, which is more like "fetch keys" or whatever. Only the way the power is accessed needs be of Endowment. With Honor, the power is gained through some sort of oath or bond. With Devotion, everyone who the Shaod took was incredibly devoted to something. And with the Dakhor and Dominion, the power you get imbued with through the Dahkor ritual requires sacrifice and "dominating" that other person. It all makes sense.

Now, you might ask, how the crap is the way you get Allomancy in line with Preservation? Well, think about it. With Hemalurgy, that fragment of the soul that is stolen is reduced/Ruined. With Feruchemy, your body's power is neither Preserved nor Ruined, but it is utilized. When you use Allomancy, however, neither your body or spirit is utilized at all--your body, and the fragment of Preservation inside you, is totally being Preserved. The direct consequence of this is that, because Preservation's magic will not let you destroy yourself in the process, you must draw on an external source: Preservation itself.

It's a weird explanation, but in fact the canonical one.

Allomancy is of Preservation, this is certain. Intent is only important in how the power are obtained, not what they do with the energy. Chaos has talked about this a lot, it was in the Principle of Intent I believe, and Brandon has specifically confirmed it.

About Feruchemy:

I think I do remember debating it with Goradel's Nephew. I still maintain my position. The way I see it, if Preservation gave Feruchemists power, why not all of it? Why have it decay when you draw too much? It would make more sense if you got it all back. Also having energy destroyed and then recreated seems odd. I personally believe it to be more elegant if power is never destroyed.

I agree. If this is how Feruchemy works, I agree with Windrunner's explanation more. You're "preserving" the power for later. Makes sense to me. That said, I'm still not totally convinced that it's necessary to think about Feruchemy in this way, but it's certainly a possibility.

[Aradel]

*GASP!*

Chaos himself is against me! I must make one last effort to survive!

Seriously though, the only reason I disagree with windrunner is that Brandon confirmed that 'diminishing returns' in feruchemy were because when feruchemists (surged, overtapped, sapped, flooded) they were stretching the limits of their own powers and some of the attribute was consumed to compensate.

When feruchemists tap at the same rate they store, there is no dimishing return. 100% of their stored attribute is returned to them.

If windrunner is right and the cause of the decay is Ruin, why would he choose to decay an increasingly larger percentage of power the more power is tapped? And why is there no decay when feruchemists tap more slowly?

Moreover, if preservation is over the storing of attributes, why on earth does he make them weaker?

I maintain that ruin takes away, preservation returns. At least until logic and evidence say otherwise.

[Voidus]

Moreover, if preservation is over the storing of attributes, why on earth does he make them weaker?

I'd say that it is to preserve their strength, keep in mind that it is stored not destroyed and later recreated. You store your strength in a safe place in order to preserve it. Or at least that's how I always saw it

[Chaos]

*GASP!*

Chaos himself is against me! I must make one last effort to survive!

Seriously though, the only reason I disagree with windrunner is that Brandon confirmed that 'diminishing returns' in feruchemy were because when feruchemists (surged, overtapped, sapped, flooded) they were stretching the limits of their own powers and some of the attribute was consumed to compensate.

When feruchemists tap at the same rate they store, there is no dimishing return. 100% of their stored attribute is returned to them.

If windrunner is right and the cause of the decay is Ruin, why would he choose to decay an increasingly larger percentage of power the more power is tapped? And why is there no decay when feruchemists tap more slowly?

Moreover, if preservation is over the storing of attributes, why on earth does he make them weaker?

I maintain that ruin takes away, preservation returns. At least until logic and evidence say otherwise.

I don't know, man, maybe Ruin and Preservation agreed to just stuff it and do Feruchemy this way because they thought Feruchemy would be awesome?

Seriously though, you have a really good point about the storing Preservation, because that isn't how Allomancy works. And Ruin would want power destroyed every time you tapped. It's like, hey, the process of storing isn't exclusively of Preservation, and tapping isn't exclusively of Ruin Like, almost as if their magic is balanced, and when you store, you simultaneously "use" Ruin and Preservation, and likewise for tapping.

I guess really, technically speaking, if storing was totally of Preservation, you'd eat some metals and then to tap (because it's of Ruin), you'd need to materialize a spike in the Spiritual Realm, and spike that attribute to come back. Then you stare at yourself and you think, "Man, Shadesmar blood is really weird."

Okay, so thanks for reminding me why both of these ideas are kind of ridiculous (Sorry, Windrunner.)

EDIT: Upvote for you using surge and its synonyms I'd give you more if you became surge-monogamous, though, and stayed faithful to the word surge

Edited March 26, 2012 by Chaos

[Aradel]

I have more fuel for the metaphorical fire.

My first point is that feruchemy is end-nuetral for the user. Energy is neither gained nor lost. If ruin 'skims off the top' when a feruchemist taps deeply, that invalidates the system being end-nuetral for the user.

If (by my explanation) the lost power reinforces the feruchemist's own abilities and allows them to tap at a faster rate than they stored, the energy isn't lost, it's moved from the user's stored attribute to their raw feruchemical ability. Which means that the system remains end-nuetral.

My second point is that Ruin is not an active participant every time someone stores or taps a metalmind. While his power is present, it is a little ridiculous to think that he's there in person for every act of feruchemy. Investitures can work independent of a shardholder. I can think of many examples of systems running automatically when a shard is not concious of them.

At length, both Ruin and Preservation were at the table when feruchemy was set up. (Alternatively, the system could have developed naturally. But that also works for my point.) They're both playing ball, shaking hands, making a truce. Preservation is not going to allow Ruin to steal power from a system that is supposed to be nuetral. Preservation won't counter entropy by adding power, as he does in his own system. Ruin won't steal power or decay it, as he does in his own system.

My last point is that it might be more beneficial for Ruin if he is responsible for storing as opposed to tapping. What happens to a metalmind that goes untapped? If a feruchemist dies or abandons a metalmind like Sazed did in WOA? (He was getting rid if excess weight on the run back to luthadel.) I think the power is lost. Whatever charge remains in the metal will likely either fade with time or dissapear as the metal decays and rusts away. So for Ruin; the more power is stored, the bigger payoff for him if the feruchemist dies. If a charge is tapped, no loss for him. If it's not the scale just tips a bit more in his direction.

Of course now I realize that my first two points are only against your reasoning. Ruin could still be over returning the power, he just can't be responsible for diminishing returns. Of course we could both be wrong and Chaos right if it's a mix of powers both times.

My third point is still valid though.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew

[Windrunner]

I think I'll bow out graciously on this one, you've both convinced me that this doesn't make sense. I think I'll go back to my original belief that Feruchemy can't be divided into halves, and both powers are responsible for all parts of the power, both storing and tapping. To put this fully to bed I'll add the final nail to my own coffin.

SPORKIFY (18 OCTOBER 2008)

And this is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Source

I just wish I understood why extra power has to be expended when you over-tap your metalminds. Perhaps this goes to powering the extra attributes? Like some of the power Sazed expends when he draws so much strength goes to his skin, so it won't tear? Or maybe not. Does anyone know why Sazed didn't lose information when he dumped all his knowledge from his copperminds into his head as he Ascended?

Edited March 26, 2012 by Windrunner

[Voidus]

Does anyone know why Sazed didn't lose information when he dumped all his knowledge from his copperminds into his head as he Ascended?

If you mean due to natural memory decay then I assumed it was because the shards enhanced is mind as they did Vin and TLR allowing him better memory. Or do you mean because he drew years worth of memories in a single instant? I'm not sure on that front.

[Windrunner]

I meant the second one, surely it should have suffered from the loss of power like all the other attributes? I think someone once told me that it was because knowledge is cognitive, but I've never seen Brandon say that before.

[Voidus]

Yeah, I don't know because Copper has always been a bit weird in that it stores specific memories instead of just memory as a general attribute, kind of like only storing strength for one muscle. Anyway, I'd say that the only way it could degrade through that is that it would be as though he had left it out of his copperminds for a longer period of time, which wouldn't matter if his mind had expanded as it would presumably make the memories flawless again.

[Aradel]

Handwavium. It has to be.

It's most likely Brandon didn't think of that when he wrote it, but it can be explained that since he was holding the shards themselves that his feruchemy was powerful enough that dumping all of his memories back in his head didn't strain him.

No strain, no drain.

Come to think of it, this is about the only way you can measure if one feruchemist is more powerful than another. The more powerful one would be less strained while surging, and wouldn't lose as much power.

[Voidus]

but it can be explained that since he was holding the shards themselves that his feruchemy was powerful enough that dumping all of his memories back in his head didn't strain him.

That one would seem to make the most sense actually, I have always wondered what could possibly happen with Feruchemists of different strength, obviously you couldn't just get more of an attribute when you tap as that would mean it was no longer end-neutral so yeah, I like this.

[Windrunner]

I think also Brandon mentions that Inquisitors, who are less strong at Feruchemy because of Hemalurgic Decay, have a harder time storing up attributes. It seems they can't go as far as a regular Feruchemist can without dying.

[Zas678]

On the original topic...

Well, I remember reading a quote that Skai didn't have a magic system, but I can't find it now. This could be me being incompetent and nott being able to find something, or me misremembering. Zas, come here!!! Please.

Afraid not. I have no recollection of any such quote. Sorry.

And I agree with Chaos's explanation in regards to Feruchemy being of Preservation/Allomancy.

If you read Brandon's explanation (Thanks Windrunner, I'd been looking for that one), he's not saying that you lose part of your attribute- you just aren't storing as much as you think. So this "decay" we keep talking about doesn't really exist. It's just a misconception.

SPORKIFY (18 OCTOBER 2008)

And this is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Source

The reason why the decaying memory doesn't happen for Sazed when he surges Copper is because he is now in charge of 2 shards, each of which has an incredibly massive cognitive presence in the cognitive realm (aka they have a lot of memory/computing ability). So the shards remember all of the information very easily.

And it's not that strange that Copper stores specific memory. Tin stores specific senses.

And no, Brandon hasn't ever said that knowledge is cognitive, but the definition of cognitive relates to cognition which is mental processes. Knowledge is most certainly a mental process.

[Voidus]

And it's not that strange that Copper stores specific memory. Tin stores specific senses.

I did think of that, but Tin also requires them to each be stored in seperate Tinminds, while I think that CopperMinds can hold more than one memory. Also with Tin (and bendalloy) there are discrete attributes (Sight, Hearing, Touch for tin Nutrition and fluids for Bendalloy) While Copper seems to be able to add any memory at all, I go back to my example of it would be like being able to store Strength from just one muscle, seems weird to me.