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Ars Arcanum 2.0


Telcontar

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It's been a while since I opened my last thread, just spamming others waiting and working on this one.

I wanted to do an analysis of the Ars Arcanum, to see what we can really learn of it and how we can use it in the future. So far IMO it has been pretty much misunderstood.

We have too keep in mind that the Ars Arcanum as it appears at the end of tWoK is an "in-world" creation which is mainly influenced by religion, Vorinism.

While interpreting the Ars Arcanum we have to consider these things. It only shows what the author could gather at one moment about the magic system.

The preceeding list is an imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism associated with the Ten Essences
BS:

Remember that the tables--and the ars Arcanum--are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws.

BS:

As though whoever's been writing the Ars Arcanum for all of the books has collected this book together, done the translation and included pieces of art and maps and things that they found in the world that had been collected during these events, and that's what you're getting.

In this post I want to argue in favor of the following theses:

1 - The Soulcasting properties only determine which Essences you can Cast with the Stormlight captured in a specific gemstone

2 – The Essences are the religious denomination of what you can Soulcast.

3 – The attributes are not related to which surges you can manipulate

4 – One's order is only determined by how you act.

Content:

I – The numbers

II – The gemstones

III – Soulcasting properties

IV – Essences

V – Body Focus

VI – Attributes

VI - Conclusion

I - The numbers

Well, the numbers are quite simple. There were ten Heralds who are worshipped by Vorinism. During the millenaires names changed, maybe they were reduced to part of a name right from the start. Anyway the numbers correspond to a Herald.

Calling numbers after gods is not that curious an idea if you only think of the Romans calling months after their gods (January is from Janus, March is from Mars) or of the origin of our day's names (Thursday comes from Thor, Friday from Frija).

II - The gemstones

Gemstones are essential for Surgebinding because you have to capture and store Stormlight to be able to use it whenever you want.

It appears that these gemstones are the most common or the only ones on Roshar. It would be interesting to know if there is other gemstones that can capture stormlight. A safer guess is to assume that these are just those chosen by Honor or whoever (Cultivation) to be those who capture stormlight. After all Preservation chose 16 (?) metals that can be used for Allomancy.

Do they teach us something? Well, they were useful to determine the meaning of the "Magic-chart". And we have seen that the Shardplates of the KR glow in the colour their order is associated with.

It seems to me that stormlight itself is white:

pg.16 paperback.

Peparing for a Full Lashing, [szeth] raised his arm and commanded the Stormlight to pool there, causing the skin to burst alight with radiance. Then he flung his hand out toward the doorframe, spraying white luminescence across it like paint.

pg. 1159 paperback.

Kaladin held the ground before the brdige by himself. White Stormlight streamed from him like a blazing fire.

BTW, your eyes get really bright, almost white when you have a lot of Stormlight in yourself.

But if Stormlight is white, then why does Shardplate glow in different colours?

Spheres glow in different colours because the Stormlight is trapped in gemstones. Shardplate is no gemstone and still it glows in different colours. Maybe the glyphs have something to do with that. Or the link between a KR and his Shardplate.

The obvious link between the order, the gemstone with which they are associated and the colour of that gemstone points to the conclusion that the KR made the Plate somehow glow in a colour according to their order because it's way cooler than if everyone would glow white.

The reason why gemstones are listed on the Ars Arcanum is obvious. They are needed for Surgebinding, needed by the KR. Today they are still needed by the ardents for Soulcasting, which gives us the religious link.

What else? Gemstones are used in fabrials. From Navani's notes we know that the type and cut of gemstones determine their use:

The cut and type of the gem determines what kind of spren are attracted to it and can be imprisoned in it.

Gemstones are omnipresent on Roshar (maybe not in Shinovar) and essential for survival (Soulcasting protection and food). From there on it is not surprising that they got associated with the gods (Heralds).

III – Soulcasting properties

I continue with this column becaue these two belong together.

I am convinced that the "properties" are those of the gemstones or to be more precise of the Stormlight captured in the gemstones.

Evidence: (sorry I don't have the quotes, if you insist I'll get them, but I think they are not really needed)

Jasnah uses smokestones to Cast things into smoke.

She uses a ruby to Cast things into fire

She uses a diamond to Cast things into crystal

She and Shallan use garnets to Cast things into blood

Emeralds are most valubale because they are used to Cast food (plants).

It's not the person who Casts but the stone used in Casting which determines what you'll get from your Soulcasting.

It is possible to Cast other things than stuff-which-can-be-soulcast (SWCBS – the honor for this wonderful acronym goes to treblkickd ;) ) but IMO this requires a combination of stones and skill than Casting something into SWCBS.

Anyway, Soulcasting properties do not have an influence in determining the order of a person.

The reason why Soulcasting properties are enlisted is because the list is religious and Soulcasting is just so very important to people and the ardents in particular. In pretending they are the only ones to know how to use Soulcasters (the fabrials), they make themselves indispensable.

IV – The Essences

The Essences seem to be quite unimportant compared to the "Soulcasting properties". Still, they are the basics of that list. After all it's entitled: "The Ten Essences and their historical associations".

(I have to admit that I also don't really understand the meaning of some of those words, hopefully you native speakers will be able to help out)

There is at least one helpful quote:

paperback pg. 622

It seemed that this Soulcaster was attuned to three Essences in particular: vapor, spark and lucentia. But it should be able to create any of the Ten Essences, from Zephyr to Talus.

I believe there hasn't been paid much attention to the Essences yet.

Btw I just researched lucentia, it comes from latin "lucere" which means "to glow". Lucentia means "glowing".

However, the Essences seem to correspond more or less to the SWCBS. I include the meaning of the Essence as I understand it, correct me please:

zephyr – sort of wind – translucent gas, air

vapor – smoke

spark – beginnung of a fire – fire

Lucentia – "glowing" – quartz, crystal, glass = translucent solid stuff

pulp – organic mixture – wood, plants, moss

blood – blood

tallow – used to tallow – oil

foil – a thin peace of metal – metal

talus – some mound of brocken rock – rock and stone

sinew – meat and flesh

I wonder if the Essences can teach us more than different meanings of SWCBS.

Connerjade came up with an interesting thought HERE that Windrunners are called so, because they seem to manipulate wind. The first Essence is zephyr/air.

The Stonewarden's Essence is talus/stone.

So there seems to be a relation between Essences and order's names. Also, Taln calls himself "Stonesinew" before collapsing in Kholinar. Jezrien is often reffered to as "Stormfather".

Essences could be a clue to order's names and thus to what they appear to be able to do. I put the emphasis on "appear" because Windrunners aren't manipulating wind but gravity and pressure.

Following this logic, Stonewardens would appear to be able to do something related to stone. I believe Satsuoni came up with the idea that Travel functions via stone.

Still following the logic and assuming that Dustbringers were an order of the KR, they would be order nr.2.

And finally, even if the Worldsingers may have been founded by the Heralds, they are not an order, there is no Essence in the word "Worldsinger". And we don't know if the KRs themselves were founded by the Heralds, probably they weren't and Nohadon was the one doing it.

I think that is just what we have to know about Essences. It's the religious names for SWCBS and they could give a clue about the order's names.

Please understand that Essences do NOT give a clue about Surges but about what you POSSIBLY can do by manipulating Surges.

V – Body Focus

Well this is the column I don't really get. At first sight it just seems to be another religous thing. At one point Shallan is thinking about the eyes of the people she is sketching.

She'd gotten their eyes right [Yalb and the porter].That was the most important. Each of the Ten Essences had an analogous part of the human body – blood for liquid, hair for wood, and so forth. The eyes were associated with crystal and glass. The windows into a person's mind and spirit.

This tells us that Shallan has another perception of the Ten Essences than the author of the Ars Arcanum. According to this quote the Essence blood is actually the Essence liquid. And pulp would be wood. Lucentia is crystal and glass. Which just points to my conclusion that Essences are just another name for SWCBS. The different perceptions can very well be due to different ardents talking or different Devotaries or such.

The question is: do we gain any knowledge of body focus?

Of course Kaladin has to inhale Stormlight to be able to use it.But I have problems to see how "hair" could be used to Surgebind. Or "oil". And Shallan would have needed to do something with her blood if the body focus were somehow connected to the use of Stormlight.

IMO the body focus is just another part of Vorin theology. Demonstrating how every human is made of the ten divine Essences, thus being a creation of the Almighty...

VI – The Attributes

Finally we come to the most interesting column. The divine attributes.

There is problems how to interpretate these:

1 – there is always two attributes but Heralds represented a sole ideal.

2 – how can we use the attributes to gain information about the characters in the book

1 – Two attributes vs. one ideal

Each Herald represented an ideal. These ideals were adopted by the KR

From Brandonthology:

The number 10 seems to be a recurring theme in this world. Are the "ten fools" the antithesis of the ten orders of the knights radiant?

First Question: Yes, ten is a number of mythological import in the world. The Ten Fools are, essentially, the opposites of the Ten Heralds--who each represented an ideal. (Those ideals were later adopted by the orders of Knights Radiant, so yes, there is a connection--but there's a step between them.)

My thesis is that the primary attribute corresponds to the Heraldic ideal. The second attribute is an addition given to them by ardents, though not of essential importance.

Why?

Well, first because Heralds only represented an ideal. And if the attributes are considered divine, it's the primary ones, not the secondary ones.

Secondly because the primary attributes are all really ideals. This doesn't fit for the secondary ones.

The first ones are:

protecting, just, brave, loving, learned, creative, wise, resolute, dependable, pious.

The second ones:

leading, confident, obediant, healing, giving, honest, careful, builder, ressourceful, guiding.

Leading can be both positive or negative, obediant just sucks as an ideal, healing can be a purpose but not an ideal, builder just doesn't fit...

Those secondary attributes often complete in some way the primary ones but that's not always the case (creative-honest?). This only teaches us that Vorinism didn't pick the secondary attributes completely at random. We don't know much about devotaries, maybe the secondary attributes have something to do with those.

Conclusion:

in order to use the attributes, we should only use the primary ones. Maybe one day we'll get information about why there are the second ones though.

2 – How to use the attribute

The attributes give us information about how one gains magical abilities on Roshar.

From Brandonthology:

He [bS] talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In l lot of his systems people are trough some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris trough the Shaod, In mistborn it's genetic, in tWoK it depends on what some one has done.

So Investiture on Roshar happens through acting in a specific way. Actions attract spren.

However, if you act according to an ideal, your actions attract a specific spren which will be able to confer you the powers of the KR.

However a bond can be formed without acting in such an "honorable" way.

around pg.1058 paperback, Nohadon vision

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren.”

This implies that there has been Surgebinding before there were KR. The latter would just be more powerful through their special bond with special spren. These spren were those attracted to the actions.

So.

In order to determine ones order, we have to watch if the person has been acting according to an ideal/primary attribute. This has happened to the three people who we think are on their way to become KRs:

Kaladin protects

Shallan is creative

Jasnah is learned

That's also why Szeth isn't on his way to become a KR. Just which ideal would he follow?

The other suspected KR-to-be is Dalinar. There we will have the choice between just (nr.2), resolute (nr.8), dependable (nr.9). Maybe wise (nr.7) but I think that is unlikely despite his reading Nohadon.

Personally I believe him to become a nr.2.

There has been the idea, that the attribute also gives you information about which Surges you can manipulate. Like the order nr.4 should be able to manipulate a Surge used for Healing.

Of course I have said that the secondary attribute is irrelevant.

But also there is no link between Protecting and Gravity/Pressure. If someone can prove to me that link, I'll begin considering it.

VII – Conclusion

Of course there is lots of consequences if my conclusions approach the truth.

What first comes to my mind is the whole truthspren theory. If acting according to an ideal attracts spren, Shallan attracts because she is creative. Not because she is honest. After all I don't see where she acted very honestly. So the reason why the symbolhead wanted a truth would be another.

I'll let you rip my post to pieces. But if you've made to the end, it should at least have interested you. Thank you for reading this huge post and sharing your thoughts.

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The question is: do we gain any knowledge of body focus?

Of course Kaladin has to inhale Stormlight to be able to use it.But I have problems to see how "hair" could be used to Surgebind. Or "oil". And Shallan would have needed to do something with her blood if the body focus were somehow connected to the use of Stormlight

Here. In your entire post, I'm sorry I have little more to say, but most of what you say covers either ground we've been thinking about for a while, or things we're already almost sure of. However, if there are specific things you are having trouble with, just ask, here in this thread, or pop me a message. Always glad to help out.

But, on to the quote in your post I selected.

Firstly, the bit about Kaladin. As the body focus of Inhalation, Zephyr stands for Jezrien (I'll use Herald names, not Vorin), and so clearly is linked to at the very least the Gravity surge, which Kaladin performs most often. However, when using the 'Reverse Lashing', which may be a new Surge (of which we have no adequate name), he describes a feeling of his lungs at breaking point, and screams. This seems to stand for Exhalation, indicating that he somehow operated under the Surges of Nalan (Nr.2). Also, the Focus doesn't appear to be consumed in the action of the Surge. So Shallan describes her Blood racing (although we assume this to mean she's scared) at the time of her use of Transformation. Also, as some Surges share a body focus, it is possible that, depending on your order, you can feel one Focus or another.

This was just speculation though. Hope it helped to clarify anything.

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it actually did, thank you. That could explain the body focus part. I'll still have my problems with "hair" but I didn't pay attention to that feeling of Kaladin or Shallan. It will be interesting to see more about this in the future.

I'm aware that most of what I've been saying has already been discussed. I intended to clarify some things which from what I've read in this forum are often mistaken. Maybe it will help newcomers... :)

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Excellent.

With the 'hair' focus however, we haven't had any viewpoints of Jasnah, and so are unaware (if her order is Palah) whether her hair is affected (itching, etc.) while she uses the Transformation Surge (or the other surge that falls under Palah). If we had a POV of her Casting, we would be able to tell if the Focus made a palpable difference during Surges.

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It's been a while since I opened my last thread, just spamming others waiting and working on this one.

I wanted to do an analysis of the Ars Arcanum, to see what we can really learn of it and how we can use it in the future. So far IMO it has been pretty much misunderstood.

We have too keep in mind that the Ars Arcanum as it appears at the end of tWoK is an "in-world" creation which is mainly influenced by religion, Vorinism.

While interpreting the Ars Arcanum we have to consider these things. It only shows what the author could gather at one moment about the magic system.

In this post I want to argue in favor of the following theses:

1 - The Soulcasting properties only determine which Essences you can Cast with the Stormlight captured in a specific gemstone

2 – The Essences are the religious denomination of what you can Soulcast.

3 – The attributes are not related to which surges you can manipulate

4 – One's order is only determined by how you act.

Content:

I – The numbers

II – The gemstones

III – Soulcasting properties

IV – Essences

V – Body Focus

VI – Attributes

VI - Conclusion

I - The numbers

Well, the numbers are quite simple. There were ten Heralds who are worshipped by Vorinism. During the millenaires names changed, maybe they were reduced to part of a name right from the start. Anyway the numbers correspond to a Herald.

Calling numbers after gods is not that curious an idea if you only think of the Romans calling months after their gods (January is from Janus, March is from Mars) or of the origin of our day's names (Thursday comes from Thor, Friday from Frija).

II - The gemstones

Gemstones are essential for Surgebinding because you have to capture and store Stormlight to be able to use it whenever you want.

It appears that these gemstones are the most common or the only ones on Roshar. It would be interesting to know if there is other gemstones that can capture stormlight. A safer guess is to assume that these are just those chosen by Honor or whoever (Cultivation) to be those who capture stormlight. After all Preservation chose 16 (?) metals that can be used for Allomancy.

Do they teach us something? Well, they were useful to determine the meaning of the "Magic-chart". And we have seen that the Shardplates of the KR glow in the colour their order is associated with.

It seems to me that stormlight itself is white:

BTW, your eyes get really bright, almost white when you have a lot of Stormlight in yourself.

But if Stormlight is white, then why does Shardplate glow in different colours?

Spheres glow in different colours because the Stormlight is trapped in gemstones. Shardplate is no gemstone and still it glows in different colours. Maybe the glyphs have something to do with that. Or the link between a KR and his Shardplate.

The obvious link between the order, the gemstone with which they are associated and the colour of that gemstone points to the conclusion that the KR made the Plate somehow glow in a colour according to their order because it's way cooler than if everyone would glow white.

The reason why gemstones are listed on the Ars Arcanum is obvious. They are needed for Surgebinding, needed by the KR. Today they are still needed by the ardents for Soulcasting, which gives us the religious link.

What else? Gemstones are used in fabrials. From Navani's notes we know that the type and cut of gemstones determine their use:

Gemstones are omnipresent on Roshar (maybe not in Shinovar) and essential for survival (Soulcasting protection and food). From there on it is not surprising that they got associated with the gods (Heralds).

III – Soulcasting properties

I continue with this column becaue these two belong together.

I am convinced that the "properties" are those of the gemstones or to be more precise of the Stormlight captured in the gemstones.

Evidence: (sorry I don't have the quotes, if you insist I'll get them, but I think they are not really needed)

Jasnah uses smokestones to Cast things into smoke.

She uses a ruby to Cast things into fire

She uses a diamond to Cast things into crystal

She and Shallan use garnets to Cast things into blood

Emeralds are most valubale because they are used to Cast food (plants).

It's not the person who Casts but the stone used in Casting which determines what you'll get from your Soulcasting.

It is possible to Cast other things than stuff-which-can-be-soulcast (SWCBS – the honor for this wonderful acronym goes to treblkickd ;) ) but IMO this requires a combination of stones and skill than Casting something into SWCBS.

Anyway, Soulcasting properties do not have an influence in determining the order of a person.

The reason why Soulcasting properties are enlisted is because the list is religious and Soulcasting is just so very important to people and the ardents in particular. In pretending they are the only ones to know how to use Soulcasters (the fabrials), they make themselves indispensable.

IV – The Essences

The Essences seem to be quite unimportant compared to the "Soulcasting properties". Still, they are the basics of that list. After all it's entitled: "The Ten Essences and their historical associations".

(I have to admit that I also don't really understand the meaning of some of those words, hopefully you native speakers will be able to help out)

There is at least one helpful quote:

I believe there hasn't been paid much attention to the Essences yet.

Btw I just researched lucentia, it comes from latin "lucere" which means "to glow". Lucentia means "glowing".

However, the Essences seem to correspond more or less to the SWCBS. I include the meaning of the Essence as I understand it, correct me please:

zephyr – sort of wind – translucent gas, air

vapor – smoke

spark – beginnung of a fire – fire

Lucentia – "glowing" – quartz, crystal, glass = translucent solid stuff

pulp – organic mixture – wood, plants, moss

blood – blood

tallow – used to tallow – oil

foil – a thin peace of metal – metal

talus – some mound of brocken rock – rock and stone

sinew – meat and flesh

I wonder if the Essences can teach us more than different meanings of SWCBS.

Connerjade came up with an interesting thought HERE that Windrunners are called so, because they seem to manipulate wind. The first Essence is zephyr/air.

The Stonewarden's Essence is talus/stone.

So there seems to be a relation between Essences and order's names. Also, Taln calls himself "Stonesinew" before collapsing in Kholinar. Jezrien is often reffered to as "Stormfather".

Essences could be a clue to order's names and thus to what they appear to be able to do. I put the emphasis on "appear" because Windrunners aren't manipulating wind but gravity and pressure.

Following this logic, Stonewardens would appear to be able to do something related to stone. I believe Satsuoni came up with the idea that Travel functions via stone.

Still following the logic and assuming that Dustbringers were an order of the KR, they would be order nr.2.

And finally, even if the Worldsingers may have been founded by the Heralds, they are not an order, there is no Essence in the word "Worldsinger". And we don't know if the KRs themselves were founded by the Heralds, probably they weren't and Nohadon was the one doing it.

I think that is just what we have to know about Essences. It's the religious names for SWCBS and they could give a clue about the order's names.

Please understand that Essences do NOT give a clue about Surges but about what you POSSIBLY can do by manipulating Surges.

V – Body Focus

Well this is the column I don't really get. At first sight it just seems to be another religous thing. At one point Shallan is thinking about the eyes of the people she is sketching.

This tells us that Shallan has another perception of the Ten Essences than the author of the Ars Arcanum. According to this quote the Essence blood is actually the Essence liquid. And pulp would be wood. Lucentia is crystal and glass. Which just points to my conclusion that Essences are just another name for SWCBS. The different perceptions can very well be due to different ardents talking or different Devotaries or such.

The question is: do we gain any knowledge of body focus?

Of course Kaladin has to inhale Stormlight to be able to use it.But I have problems to see how "hair" could be used to Surgebind. Or "oil". And Shallan would have needed to do something with her blood if the body focus were somehow connected to the use of Stormlight.

IMO the body focus is just another part of Vorin theology. Demonstrating how every human is made of the ten divine Essences, thus being a creation of the Almighty...

VI – The Attributes

Finally we come to the most interesting column. The divine attributes.

There is problems how to interpretate these:

1 – there is always two attributes but Heralds represented a sole ideal.

2 – how can we use the attributes to gain information about the characters in the book

1 – Two attributes vs. one ideal

Each Herald represented an ideal. These ideals were adopted by the KR

My thesis is that the primary attribute corresponds to the Heraldic ideal. The second attribute is an addition given to them by ardents, though not of essential importance.

Why?

Well, first because Heralds only represented an ideal. And if the attributes are considered divine, it's the primary ones, not the secondary ones.

Secondly because the primary attributes are all really ideals. This doesn't fit for the secondary ones.

The first ones are:

protecting, just, brave, loving, learned, creative, wise, resolute, dependable, pious.

The second ones:

leading, confident, obediant, healing, giving, honest, careful, builder, ressourceful, guiding.

Leading can be both positive or negative, obediant just sucks as an ideal, healing can be a purpose but not an ideal, builder just doesn't fit...

Those secondary attributes often complete in some way the primary ones but that's not always the case (creative-honest?). This only teaches us that Vorinism didn't pick the secondary attributes completely at random. We don't know much about devotaries, maybe the secondary attributes have something to do with those.

Conclusion:

in order to use the attributes, we should only use the primary ones. Maybe one day we'll get information about why there are the second ones though.

2 – How to use the attribute

The attributes give us information about how one gains magical abilities on Roshar.

So Investiture on Roshar happens through acting in a specific way. Actions attract spren.

However, if you act according to an ideal, your actions attract a specific spren which will be able to confer you the powers of the KR.

However a bond can be formed without acting in such an "honorable" way.

This implies that there has been Surgebinding before there were KR. The latter would just be more powerful through their special bond with special spren. These spren were those attracted to the actions.

So.

In order to determine ones order, we have to watch if the person has been acting according to an ideal/primary attribute. This has happened to the three people who we think are on their way to become KRs:

Kaladin protects

Shallan is creative

Jasnah is learned

That's also why Szeth isn't on his way to become a KR. Just which ideal would he follow?

The other suspected KR-to-be is Dalinar. There we will have the choice between just (nr.2), resolute (nr.8), dependable (nr.9). Maybe wise (nr.7) but I think that is unlikely despite his reading Nohadon.

Personally I believe him to become a nr.2.

There has been the idea, that the attribute also gives you information about which Surges you can manipulate. Like the order nr.4 should be able to manipulate a Surge used for Healing.

Of course I have said that the secondary attribute is irrelevant.

But also there is no link between Protecting and Gravity/Pressure. If someone can prove to me that link, I'll begin considering it.

VII – Conclusion

Of course there is lots of consequences if my conclusions approach the truth.

What first comes to my mind is the whole truthspren theory. If acting according to an ideal attracts spren, Shallan attracts because she is creative. Not because she is honest. After all I don't see where she acted very honestly. So the reason why the symbolhead wanted a truth would be another.

I'll let you rip my post to pieces. But if you've made to the end, it should at least have interested you. Thank you for reading this huge post and sharing your thoughts.

On your point about Dalinar, i'm almost certain he's Metalborn (my name for order 8) because he picked leadership and determination as the two things with which he would define his life. We already have Kaladin and Szeth as type-1 surgebinders, so eight order (determination) makes a lot more sense.

Plus, something i just thought of. One of the two Windrunner surges is atmospheric Pressure.

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And the 'runner' part may refer to their Gravity Surge? Then, applied to Stonewards, Stone could indicate and ability for your skin to become hard as stone, and Ward may be offering protection, which seems to fit Dalinar's two most yearned for abilities; to protect his nephew/army and to stop being so useless (his own perception caused by his stupid son Adolin's views of him as 'old').

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I disagree on your statement that the second attribute is of no importance. The primary issue that I have with it is Shallan's use of truth in order to soulcast as opposed to inventing something new or clever. As far as she is concerned, we could almost come to the conclusion that Creativity is superfluous to her, although I would hesitate to do so since that is how she was identified as being in order 6.

I think that both attributes fit into the four ideals of each order. Something along the lines of

1- General Ideal

2- Primary Attribute Ideal

3- Secondary Attribute Ideal

4- Synergistic Ideal?

Therefore, both are needed to unlock your full potential.

I do agree that Dalinar is in Order 8. He is resolute without being confident (He stands by his decisions even though he internally wavers a great deal). Order 9 works for him, I really can't argue the attributes except 8 fits him better. At the end, when we see him embrace his destiny, he has Resolved to Build an army and a nation.

As a minor note, Lucentia=glowing would support your thought that light is a surge, namely surge 4.

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I disagree on your statement that the second attribute is of no importance. The primary issue that I have with it is Shallan's use of truth in order to soulcast as opposed to inventing something new or clever. As far as she is concerned, we could almost come to the conclusion that Creativity is superfluous to her, although I would hesitate to do so since that is how she was identified as being in order 6.

I think that both attributes fit into the four ideals of each order. Something along the lines of

1- General Ideal

2- Primary Attribute Ideal

3- Secondary Attribute Ideal

4- Synergistic Ideal?

Therefore, both are needed to unlock your full potential.

I do agree that Dalinar is in Order 8. He is resolute without being confident (He stands by his decisions even though he internally wavers a great deal). Order 9 works for him, I really can't argue the attributes except 8 fits him better. At the end, when we see him embrace his destiny, he has Resolved to Build an army and a nation.

As a minor note, Lucentia=glowing would support your thought that light is a surge, namely surge 4.

Sorry if this is just me, but I failed to see the distinction between a 'general' idea and a 'synergistic' ideal, because, firstly, you cannot have a single ideal that is synergistic, because in order to it to engage in 'synergy', there must be two ideals. But that's just me being picky.

On a more important, second, note the use of the term 'general' implies, to me at least, that this ideal would be the sum of all their parts, i.e an Ideal that spans both the attributes Creative/Honest for Shallan, but then because, save for General, there is only two parts (the Primary and Secondary Attribute), then to me 'synergistic' ideal (a blend of Primary/Secondary) seems identical to a 'general' ideal (an aspect covering both Primary/Secondary).

For me, I like the first 3 points (1.General,2.Primary,3.Secondary) however I feel that the 4th Ideal should cover the aim of their Order. For examples, to bring peace, operate logistically for the SC Orders, to defend, protect, however for most of these, they seem to fit into the original attributes, for example Order 5 (if indeed a Soulcasting Order) having a wish to operate without waste is identical to being Wise.

So I really would like more suggestions to help flesh out that list you created.

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Sorry, when I wrote General Ideal, I meant the first ideal of the Knights Radiant “Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.”. The 4th ideal is some combination of the 2nd and 3rd (I will protect by leading for Windrunners). I recognize that the wording is poor, but I believe it will end up being something like that, if much cooler sounding. I tried to think of what a purpose would be like, but wouldn't it essentially cover ground that one of the others manages to say? For example, Kaladin's purpose is to protect, so how would ideal 4 distinguish itself from ideal 2?

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Sorry, when I wrote General Ideal, I meant the first ideal of the Knights Radiant “Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.”. The 4th ideal is some combination of the 2nd and 3rd (I will protect by leading for Windrunners). I recognize that the wording is poor, but I believe it will end up being something like that, if much cooler sounding. I tried to think of what a purpose would be like, but wouldn't it essentially cover ground that one of the others manages to say? For example, Kaladin's purpose is to protect, so how would ideal 4 distinguish itself from ideal 2?

I see, by General you meant identical for all Orders, not specific. The only one they share in common, then?

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I disagree on your statement that the second attribute is of no importance. The primary issue that I have with it is Shallan's use of truth in order to soulcast as opposed to inventing something new or clever. As far as she is concerned, we could almost come to the conclusion that Creativity is superfluous to her, although I would hesitate to do so since that is how she was identified as being in order 6.

I think that both attributes fit into the four ideals of each order. Something along the lines of

1- General Ideal

2- Primary Attribute Ideal

3- Secondary Attribute Ideal

4- Synergistic Ideal?

Therefore, both are needed to unlock your full potential.

...

Yes! Upvoted.

In further support of the importance of the secondary ideal there is the example of Kaladin in the tower battle. Despite being unknown and culturally unfit to lead (darkeyed), Brandon has Kaladin take over Dalinar's army and order Dalinar and Adolin around. I interpret this as Brandon clearly showing the importance and strength of Kaladin's leadership.

Also on the ideals, I believe each order has the Life before death general ideal and 4 others. I think it fits with Connerjade's idea that the synergistic ideal could also be the third ideal. Nohadon's book supposedly has 40 sections where he relates learnings from his walk. The section that Dalinar recites to Elhokar and Sadeas is clearly the one that introduces the general ideal. Ten orders times four more ideals gives 40 more ideals. What a coincidence that he has 40 stories, possibly one for each of the Radiant ideals. We are even given one of the stories (the candles). We might be able to figure out the radiant ideal contained therein. It even seems likely to be a windrunner ideal about protecting and/or leadership.

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ok, I see I have to rephrase my idea.

You're right of course, that the secondary attributes are somewhat of importance.

But I still believe that ONLY the primary one (which would be the ideal represented by the Herald) is the one who attracts the spren in the first place. Thus being the only one to help figure out ones order. Of course there is that Shallan/truthspren problem, no reason to point it out to me ;)

The secondary ones seem much more to be attributes who gained importance once the KR were formed.

I also still believe, that those secondary attributes will have much to do with Vorinism.

Related questions:

Who or what was/is Vorin?

When did it first appear? The Recreance is said to be the first failure of Vorinism, so there clearly was a link between the KR and Vorinism. This, as long with the religious nature of the attributes contributed to my above-stated theory.

To that Shallan-problem. So far we haven't seen any spren attached to Szeth or Jasnah. Of course Syl is only visible to Kaladin, so, as we haven't yet got a Jasnah POV, there wouldn't be reason to see one. Szeth instead...

And yet he is able to use Stormlight. As Kaladin was way before Syl gained conscience, if we see him glowing on the battlefield as the use of Stormlight.

All I'm saying is that there has not to be a manifested spren for one to perform a Surgebinding. As Syl was mistaken for a windspren, a creativespren could become an "honorspren".

In that case the symbolheads (who always seemed to me to be very strange spren) would just have something to do with how Soulcasting works.

Just consider that possibility. Yeah, you'll bring the argument of the symbolhead talking about a bond etc. No need. But we're all so fixed on the idea that the symbolheads gave Shallan the ability in the first place. What do we really know about that? Personally, I am not convinced that there is proof.

Also no need to discuss it here, just my own interpretation of things. However this probably won't stop you to so. (Which is one of the reasons, I like it here ;) )

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Thinking about it, Shallan can only see the truthspren when she engages in creativity, i.e. through her drawings. They may have originated as creationspren, such as Syl originating as a seeming windspren. However this is debunked by the fact that the symbolheads ask for 'truth' to activate. Do we have evidence of Syl asking for Kaladin to be, or only activating when Kaladin is being, Leading (Order 1 Secondary)?

This would make the secondary attribute what activate the Nahel bond, but the primary what causes it to initially form.

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Unfortunately, Kaladin seems like he is going to be a terrible example for this since they go so hand in hand for him. We can note that Syl was initially drawn to him while he was protecting weak Tien-like soldiers in a leadership position. He loses his men and stops protecting and leading. When he chooses to protect again, he begins leading again.

Actually, I was thinking that one might define more who a person is and the other what they do with that attribute.

1- A leader who protects

2- A confident man who metes out justice.

3- A brave man who obeys

4- A loving woman who heals

5- A learned woman who gives

6- An honest woman who creates

etc.

Sadly, this does little to separate the attributes, since it isn't clearly delineated into the attribute tree and action tree.

As far as activating the Nahel bond goes. It seems to me that Kaladin's finalization of the bond, when he says the second ideal was an example of him only protecting, not leading

I will protect those who cannot protect themselves,” he whispered. The Second Ideal of the Knights Radiant. A crack shook the air, like an enormous clap of thunder, though the sky was completely clear. Teft stumbled back—having just set the bridge in place—and found himself gaping with the rest of Bridge Four.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 926). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

He left bridge four behind when he did that, rather than leading them on a heroic charge.

I am almost more happy simply thinking that maybe the ardents got the columns wrong (maybe Shallan's should be flipped for example).

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I probably shouldn't spend time on the 17th Shard before going to sleep. Couldn't do that last night, had to think about what I just had produced about Shallan.

Also, while I should spend my time studying (in the academic way) I had to bring to paper my night's thoughts this morning.

I see potential in this to deserve an own thread, but already in the past I may have overstated the potential of my thoughts and since the first post in this thread is the foundation of what I'm producing next, it fits pretty good in here. Also I expressed myself that the symbolheads represented a flaw in my reasoning. So here you get an addition to that.

Shallan and the symbolheads

First, let's remember how Investiture works on Roshar. It depends on how one acts. While I exposed this in post #1, I'll use Shallan as an example.

If I didn't completely misunderstand something, Investiture is the process of gaining magical abilities in the cosmere. So that's how you gain abilities in the first place. It depends on how one acts.

Shallan acted way more creatively than honestly. She sketched since she was young and does it all the time. And she is incredibly good at it.

On the other side, it has been argued, that her hiding the truth attracted the symbolheads who then bonded to her.

This cannot be how she got Invested. Because hiding a truth is not acting honestly. But you have to act in a specific way to get Invested.

Also: if the theory, that Shallans Memories are a form of Surgebinding is correct, that she did that a very long time before killing her father and then hiding that fact.

The lack of a spren is not evidence against it, because Syl distinguished herself from windspren very late, and for Szeth we haven't seen any spren at all. Also we have this wonderful quote from Brandonthology:

Louise wrote: "Is spren lost their memories and personalities because of the loss of their attached radiants? But retain a basic attraction to things associated with the radiants they bonded to previously?"

Not all types of spren bonded to Radiants. You will find out more about this in the future. However, if you're speaking specifically of spren that were bonded to Radiants, then yes, you're on the right track.

So I think it likely that spren only gain sentience by a bond with Radiants. (By something Nohadon did for example) So you'll have to be beyond the ground-level of honor for a spren to show itself.

=> Shallan got Invested because she acts creatively.

What's the symbolheads then? My theory is, that those are a sort of guardians of Shadesmar. It's those who can give you access to Shadesmar.

Not only Soulcasters can go to Shadesmar, there is at least Hoid who uses it, and probably other members of the 17th Shard as well. But if others can go to Shadesmar either they also use the symbolheads or they know of another way. We'll have to RAFO.

It is possible that symbolheads are not attracted by secrets:

Shallan first drew the symbolhead while drawing Taravangian, we don't know anything about why it was there. Maybe the symbolhead got attracted to Shallan then, because Shallan was able to perceive it. Normally they are invisible to people, so it would just seem normal that you would be interested by someone who is able to see you, wouldn't you?

That is also why the first time a symbolhead speaks to Shallan is why he asks her: "What are you?". When she later drawy more of them they are even more attracted by her.

When Shallan shows Jasnah the drawing of a symbolhead, Jasnah doesn't seem to recognize them from her own experience. Because she doesn't see them herself. Jasnah probably found an old book explaining about Soulcasting and acces to Shadesmar. Which told her that she had to tell a truth. So the access to Shadesmar can very well work without having seen the symbolheads. Jasnah still recognizes them from the description in her book.

=> symbolheads are "portal-spren" giving you acces to Shadesmar.

So we have two spren who are important to Shallan. The first being the one to give her Surgebinding, the second being the symbolhead giving her acces to Shadesmar.

Based on this my theory on how Soulcasting (without the Jasnah-lightning) works:

1 - you touch an object, because if you didn't you wouldn't find its cognitive aspect in an ocean of beads.

2 - you tell the guardian of Shadesmar (symbolhead) a truth so it can get you to Shadesmar. Edit: you do that to form a bond with a symbolhead once, so it stays with you afterwards.

3 - Once there, you have the cognitive aspect of the object you were touching in your hand (of course that's problematic when Casting air to anything else)

4 - you command Stormlight into the bead you're holding, bribing it to Transform. While giving the command you need to be precise, if not, you'll just get a lake of blood.

5 - in the physical realm, the object Transforms.

6 - you get back to the physical realm

I think this matches far better than symbolheads being truthspren etc. Of course if I wouldn't think this way, I wouldn't post it. But Brandons magic systems always make sense, once you understand them and to me this makes much more sense than other explanations I've read so far. I am probably far from the truth, of course.

Edited by Telcontar
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Is it instead possible that Shallan creates honest representations of the world? She doesn't just draw random images or things that she thinks that would be nice, she creates pictures showing what was there when she "took" the image. So, much as how Kaladin is virtually always in a leadership role when he is protecting, Shallan is always honest when she is creating.

It is possible that symbolheads are not attracted by secrets:

Shallan first drew the symbolhead while drawing Taravangian, we don't know anything about why it was there. Maybe the symbolhead got attracted to Shallan then, because Shallan was able to perceive it. Normally they are invisible to people, so it would just seem normal that you would be interested by someone who is able to see you, wouldn't you?

Remember also who the subject of the portrait is, Taravangian, the man with a MASSIVE secret. Who is known as a dumb, kindly old man who builds hospitals to heal the sick but happens to be a sometimes brilliant, borderline evil man who builds deathhouses to collect the visions that are left by the dead and assassinates half the political structure of the planet (Hyperbole there). Perhaps the combination of the two people with large important secrets happens to bring the symbolspren out more?

Based on this my theory on how Soulcasting (without the Jasnah-lightning) works:

1 - you touch an object, because if you didn't you wouldn't find its cognitive aspect in an ocean of beads.

2 - you tell the guardian of Shadesmar (symbolhead) a truth so it can get you to Shadesmar.

3 - Once there, you have the cognitive aspect of the object you were touching in your hand (of course that's problematic when Casting air to anything else)

4 - you command Stormlight into the bead you're holding, bribing it to Transform. While giving the command you need to be precise, if not, you'll just get a lake of blood.

5 - in the physical realm, the object Transforms.

6 - you get back to the physical realm

I think I agree with everything except for 2. For 2: As others have said before, if you really have to tell a powerful truth each time you want to do something, you are going to quickly run out. As opposed to just building a bond with the spren so it "likes you" due to the truths you have already told it and is more inclined to help out.

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Could it be so that the primary attribute is for attracting and bonding an spren and the secondary is used in order to increase the power in the bond? For example Kaladin acting with leadership was was made it possible for him to use the second Ideal.

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Further evidence for symbolheads not being Shallan's ability-spren: Those only gain sentience (at least for KR) by bonding with people. Symbolheads however are already sentient when Shallan draws them for the first time. I think that is safe to assume.

And if we assume that there is only one spren forming the Nahel-bond, then it's not going to be a symbolhead for Shallan.

I admit that Taravangian does keep a big secret. But does it change something about what I said, whether they are attracted by secrets or by someone who is able to perceive them? I think it more likely that those guys are around everywhere, invisible. You can attract them by doing whatever it takes to attract them, that also is safe to assume.

As to point 2 of my "How-Soulcasting-works"-list.

You're right of course by saying that you won't need to tell a big secret everytime you want to go to Shadesmar. It's still valable for your first (and maybe second) visit there.

If symbolheads are just stalking everywhere, strolling around, the bond it mentions could be a bond which makes that particular symbolhead always stay in proximity to Shallan so whenever she needs to go to Shadesmar in order to Soulcast, a symbolhead will be there.

Maybe the symbolhead needs the truth about a person to be able to form a bond with that particular mind. Like an individualization. After all we don't know if they can see or how the physical world appears to them.

Oh, and I like your idea about Shallan creating honest representations. It's a nice description of what she's doing. But I still think the secondary attribute irrelevant for Investiture.

My formulation in the original post regarding secondary attributes certainly was quite harsh, but that's to make myself more clear.

Secondary attributes will probably be needed to shape your KR-abilities. In that I acknowledge your point about Kaladin nearly always being a leader.

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Could it be so that the primary attribute is for attracting and bonding an spren and the secondary is used in order to increase the power in the bond? For example Kaladin acting with leadership was was made it possible for him to use the second Ideal.

That is almost what I have become to believe about secondary attributes. The second ideal for Kaladin is "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" There is a good chance we'll see leading in the three remaining KR-oaths.

While Kaladin's issue in tWoK was to protect and save his bridgecrew, starting with the second book he will have to lead Dalinar's guard, as there is no more need to protect the bridgemen. As a leader of a thousand soldiers. Knowing Kaladin he will have problems with leadership, then accepting his role when he needs to fight of Szeth coming to kill Dalinar thus gaining the recquired power to win against Szeth who until then had the upperhand because of his skill with the Lashings.

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=> Shallan got Invested because she acts creatively.

What's the symbolheads then? My theory is, that those are a sort of guardians of Shadesmar. It's those who can give you access to Shadesmar.

Not only Soulcasters can go to Shadesmar, there is at least Hoid who uses it, and probably other members of the 17th Shard as well. But if others can go to Shadesmar either they also use the symbolheads or they know of another way. We'll have to RAFO.

It is possible that symbolheads are not attracted by secrets:

Shallan first drew the symbolhead while drawing Taravangian, we don't know anything about why it was there. Maybe the symbolhead got attracted to Shallan then, because Shallan was able to perceive it. Normally they are invisible to people, so it would just seem normal that you would be interested by someone who is able to see you, wouldn't you?

I really like it except for this point. Guardians of Shadesmar? That wouldn't make any sense. I'm sure that they (the Symbolspren) revealed that they can make themselves visible if they choose to.

So, Jasnah not recognising them brings serious issues to your belief that they are the Guardians, as then everyone accessing Shadesmar would need to be able to see them/ speak to them.

In my opinion, though I have no evidence, the truthspren (symbolspren) are attracted to secrets. Not truths, Shallan doesn't tell many of those, but hidden truth. Truth they can dredge out in exchange for power. This is what attracts them, as they, I don't know, have an insatiable thirst for knowledge. And at the point Shallan first sees them, we have a convergence of two dark secrets. Murder of Father vs. Murderer of Majority of Political Structure of Two Entire Countries using a Rogue Shardbearer.

Pretty attractive. However I disagree when you say it was their curiosity to find one who could see them that caused them to wish to bond with her. I think its that they recognize potential to use of their power. Tarangvian (whatever his name is) might not have the power/inclination to use Shadesmar, thus not ever going to give knowledge.

I feel this better explains their first query of 'What are you?' as in 'Are you going to be of use?'. This is the first time one of them proffers their power, in exchange for the most fundamental aspect of her of all: identity.

My two-cents.

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I really like it except for this point. Guardians of Shadesmar? That wouldn't make any sense. I'm sure that they (the Symbolspren) revealed that they can make themselves visible if they choose to.

I thought about how to describe their function. Failing to find a better word I went with "guardian". My idea was more someone who acts as a gatekeeper, only opening the gates for special people. Those who may give you acces to Shadesmar.

So, Jasnah not recognising them brings serious issues to your belief that they are the Guardians, as then everyone accessing Shadesmar would need to be able to see them/ speak to them.

Jasnah doesn't recognize them because she has never seen them herself. I only supposed that she had read about Soulcasting in some ancient book where it was described that you needed to interact with spren to acces Shadesmar. In that book would also be written that symbolheads are always around, so they can here you when you ask for them.

So while never having seen them, Jasnah interacted with them via speech. By forming that bond of course her symbolhead would then follow her.

This is wild assumption of course. We probably won't know before we'll get the Jasnah-book.

In my opinion, though I have no evidence, the truthspren (symbolspren) are attracted to secrets. Not truths, Shallan doesn't tell many of those, but hidden truth. Truth they can dredge out in exchange for power. This is what attracts them, as they, I don't know, have an insatiable thirst for knowledge. And at the point Shallan first sees them, we have a convergence of two dark secrets. Murder of Father vs. Murderer of Majority of Political Structure of Two Entire Countries using a Rogue Shardbearer.

yep, as I said, that is as likely an explanation as mine. It sure is two persons hiding big secrets. You didn't even mention the (probably) only female Shardbearer of Roshar. Which makes those two even more secretive. But if they're attracted to secrets or anything else is not essential for my theories.

It will be sad though, that we'll never find out what secret attracted the symbolhead to the dying chull-trainer. (if not the hidden hospital itself.)

Pretty attractive. However I disagree when you say it was their curiosity to find one who could see them that caused them to wish to bond with her. I think its that they recognize potential to use of their power. Tarangvian (whatever his name is) might not have the power/inclination to use Shadesmar, thus not ever going to give knowledge.

I feel this better explains their first query of 'What are you?' as in 'Are you going to be of use?'. This is the first time one of them proffers their power, in exchange for the most fundamental aspect of her of all: identity.

I wouldn't say it was their curiosity that caused them to wish to bond. We don't know if they have any decision in whether they give someone access to Shadesmar or not. If someone demands it, maybe they have to comply, the truth being but the prize required. We'll see if the symbolhead gains anything by bonding with Shallan.

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On a side note, you mention a dying chull-trainer attracted Symbolspren? Who was that?

Maybe just my wits fading with youth.

It's in the epigrapgh to chapter 4:

“I’m dying, aren’t I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky.”

Collected on the 3rd of Jesnan, 1172, 11 seconds pre-death. Subject was a Reshi chull trainer. Sample is of particular note.

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