Thoughts on Atium Alloys

[DariusJenai]

So, it's been mentioned that Atium can be alloyed with the other 16 metals to create a new set of Allomantic metals.

I've had some interesting thoughts on those running around my brain since I first read Final Empire. I'd like to put down some thoughts and see what the community thinks about them.

First, since we're only given one example of any metal alloyed with Atium, I'm probably reaching into Wild and Strange territory, and I've frankly probably drawn some connections where none exist. That being said, here's my thoughts.

Atium Alloys swap the Internal/External component of whichever allomantic metal they are alloyed with.

Malatium, which is atium alloyed with gold, allowed Vin to view the past selves of TLR and the Inquisitor. Since gold does the same as an Internal metal, that's where the original thought came from.

Expounding from that conclusion, Tin/Atium would allow one to enhance the senses of a second person, and Zinc/Atium would allow one to Riot their own emotions.

Even more interesting, perhaps this would allow a Bendalloy/Atium alloy to speed time solely for the person using it, instead of creating a bubble. Sliders could become speed demons, and Pulsers would be the ideal choice for slow-boat space voyages in the third Mistborn trilogy.

I'd originally had some thoughts that perhaps Lerasium alloys would reverse the Push/Pull factor, but the metals seem to be pretty well paired as far as pushing/pulling is concerned. The few that aren't paired would be fairly useless as the opposite (Tin/Pewter would presumably supress senses/strength for example). So the only benefit I could see if that was the case is that you could have someone who was a Misting having at least apparent access to 2 Metals. For example, a Coinshot burning Lerasium/Steel in addition to Steel would be able to both Push and Pull on metals, but not have any of the other skills of a Mistborn.

[FeatherWriter]

Hmm, it's possible. I wonder if a misting could burn the Atium alloy of their metal. Like could a Tineye burn the Atium-tin alloy? Or is there another set of mistings out there specifically for Atium?

[CrazyRioter]

actually I'm pretty sure that Brandon has said that Lerasium alloys simply create Mistings of the metal alloyed in the same way pure Lerasium creates Mistborn.

[DariusJenai]

Hmm, it's possible. I wonder if a misting could burn the Atium alloy of their metal. Like could a Tineye burn the Atium-tin alloy? Or is there another set of mistings out there specifically for Atium?

Presumably they could, otherwise there would be large numbers of people Snapping that wouldn't be able to burn any of the current metals. Alternatively, since it requires 2 Allomantic metals, the entire second set would only be burnable by a Mistborn.

actually I'm pretty sure that Brandon has said that Lerasium alloys simply create Mistings of the metal alloyed in the same way pure Lerasium creates Mistborn.

They do, but it's mentioned in the annotations that this isn't the 'primary' use of Lerasium, and it would have a different effect for someone who could already burn that metal. (specifically it says that pure Lerasium would have a different effect for someone who was already Mistborn, but I'm expounding.)

[FeatherWriter]

Snapping wise, it's not really possible to tell that you've snapped unless you've got some allomantic metal ingested and can suddenly burn it. Remember the mistsickness, no one knew that that was snapping until someone gave them metals. If there were Atium-alloy mistings (which there may or may not be; I'm still not entirely sold on the idea) they'd be like alumnium and duralumin gnats or atium mistings, who don't even realize that they have powers because either the powers don't manifest or there are no metals around.

Also, there was something mentioned in the AoL reactions thread that Sazed changed the way that Snapping works. So, hey. Everything could be completely different now.

[CrazyRioter]

I think Sazed probably just made it so snapping doesn't require getting the crap beat out of you or similar nastiness.

[DariusJenai]

I think Sazed probably just made it so snapping doesn't require getting the crap beat out of you or similar nastiness.

If he did though, he must have made there be some sign. Otherwise every single person would have to be tested on every single metal to determine if they were a misting or not. While I agree that Sazed probably didn't like the current method of Snapping, I can't see him replacing it with pure guesswork, especially since Pewter at minimum is toxic if not burned.

Edit: Just had an alternative thought. Would Chromium mistings only be able to affect another allomancer, or could anyone swallow metals, see if they could burn some, and then have a Leech zap them? That could potentially remove the health problem of testing for the ability. A somewhat less expensive (if somewhat more disgusting) way would be to have someone swallow a bead, see if they could burn it, then vomit it back up. Little to no loss of actual metals would take place, removing the expense and health problems. Of course, then you get to go into testing knowing that someone else has probably thrown up the bead of metal you're swallowing.

Edited November 15, 2011 by DariusJenai

[lauren.e135]

We know know that there are 16 base metals, two god metals, and 16 alloys to each god metal.

We know what the 16 base metals are, and what powers they hold, as well as that each Lerasium alloy makes a non-allomancer a misting of that alloy (i.e. lerasium-steel alloy makes a steel misting).

What I wonder is what the various atium alloys do.

First some groundwork. We know that metals are grouped externally and internally. Steel&Iron v Pewter&Tin. Zinc&Brass v Bronze&Copper. etc.

My thought is that atium and lerasium are likewise paired. Lerasium and its alloys all effect the burner themselves (internal) whereas atium--and its one known alloy--are external metals.

We know that (at least sometimes) when alloyed with atium, an internal metal becomes external (gold to malatium), but how would atium affect a metal that is already external?

And does the gold-malatium change hold? Do all internal metals simply become external when alloyed with atium, or not necessarily?

I'm not sure if there is already a thread on this, if so sorry for repeating, but I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the matter.

Edited November 15, 2011 by lauren.e135

[FeatherWriter]

There is a thread already. You're just a little late! Here you go: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1179-thoughts-on-atium-alloys/

Also, could we get an admin to maybe merge the two?

Edited November 15, 2011 by FeatherWriter

[lauren.e135]

Thanks (=

[lauren.e135]

It could certainly be fun if the atium alloys simply switched the in/externality of a metal. It makes more sense than my first guess of simply changing all metals into external metals, and you make a great point on its practicality/usefulness in terms of space travel.

One thing that was bothering me was what about electrum?? An electrum-atium would just be atium wouldn't it?

[DariusJenai]

Most of these thoughts came about when I was still of the opinion that Electrum created a future-shadow in much the same way that gold created a past-shadow. I've since been corrected on that, and it's thrown some of my thoughts out of whack.

However, since Electrum seems to work differently than its paired metal, I'm comfortable saying that its Atium alloy would presumably work differently as well. Perhaps it actually does create a future-shadow version of yourself as an opposite to gold?

[FeatherWriter]

That was my guess too, Darius. You'd get to see possible future selves, as opposed to future shadows from a few seconds.

[DariusJenai]

yeah, I read that post in the other thread just after I saw it here. What's that saying about great minds?

[Thyrllann]

yeah, I read that post in the other thread just after I saw it here. What's that saying about great minds?

Great minds think alike.

BUT, Fools never differ.

Hmmmmm...

[Joe ST]

Interesting discussion here, I like that idea.

So for the metal Push/Pull, how would that work? Would it just be 'push/pull from some place not your centre of gravity'? and similar for copper/bronze? The enhancement quadrant doesn't make much sense, unless they manifest as 'opposites': so the clearing alloys create new metal and the flaring ones slow down burning?

[pmj812]

hmm. I do see some challenges for this theory. For example, aluminum and chromium are already perfect internal/external complements. and the physical metals leave me at a bit of a loss. Would burning tin/atium allow you to enhance another person's senses? Iron/atium would become internal... would it tear the metals out of your own blood?

I do have a thought to solve the electrum problem but it's highly speculative.

Perhaps the Hathsin geodes didn't generate pure Atium. Perhaps it formed as an atium/silver ore, and thus the metal we think of as atium is really atium/electrum, and pure atium could only be created by smelting the ore (Something that would almost never have been contemplated, because of how valuable atium beads were)

I don't think it's true, but it's something.

Side note: what would a lerasium spike do?

[happyman]

hmm. I do see some challenges for this theory. For example, aluminum and chromium are already perfect internal/external complements. and the physical metals leave me at a bit of a loss. Would burning tin/atium allow you to enhance another person's senses? Iron/atium would become internal... would it tear the metals out of your own blood?

I do have a thought to solve the electrum problem but it's highly speculative.

Perhaps the Hathsin geodes didn't generate pure Atium. Perhaps it formed as an atium/silver ore, and thus the metal we think of as atium is really atium/electrum, and pure atium could only be created by smelting the ore (Something that would almost never have been contemplated, because of how valuable atium beads were)

I don't think it's true, but it's something.

Side note: what would a lerasium spike do?

This has actually been mooted before (e.g. we've never seen pure Atium), but it never gained much traction. Not saying that it isn't true, though, but since Brandon has explicitly stated that Malatium is a gold/Atium alloy, it seems unlikely.

[Thor]

When talking about an Electrum-Atium alloy, it is important to note that Atium doesn't show someone's future actions, it shows ALL future events, for a limited distance in the future. There are still Atium shadows for objects that aren't attached to people. Example: A person burning Atium is fighting with a stone-tipped spear (no Pushing/Pulling, as that would add more shadows) against another person burning Atium. Since the spear can be thrown or used to stab, there are many shadows, some thrusting/stabbing and some being thrown. As soon as the spear is thrown, however, the spear collapses to one shadow (its future probability being 1), while the Atium-burner who threw the spear is still projecting many shadows, albeit ones sans spear.

I personally think that Atium-Electrum would be the future opposite of Gold, as has been mentioned. Note also that (on the table of Allomantic metals poster) Atium alloys give "expanded" Mental and Temporal effects while Lerasium alloys give "expanded" Physical and Enhancement effects. Some more food for thought.

[Eri]

My guesses for some alloys (may be with atium or may be larasium, I don't know):

- Iron (and Steel, Push) - Pull metals toward a chosen object (other metal, probably), not necessarily towards you. A bit like Magneto.

- Aluminium (and that one Leechers use, don't remember. Chromium? - to work on others) - create or enlarge your metal reserves.

- Cadmium & Bendalloy - do something cool with timespace and speed. Shorten space (like in a wormhole)? Speed up a moving object (incl. FLT)? Timestop / Leap in time? Travel to Shadesmar (I doubt that one, Shadesmar is Cognitive, not Physical.)?

- Tin - see into other realms? Enter Shadesmar?

- Copper - block Allomancy at all in your coppercloud?

- Bronze - see people's souls?

- Zinc&Brass - mindreading? Creating emotions that weren't there?

Edited November 17, 2011 by eri

[Ari]

I really like the idea of flipping externality and internality of metals when alloyed with Atium, it unlocks some pretty cool ideas.

My guesses for some alloys (may be with atium or may be larasium, I don't know):

- Iron (and Steel, Push) - Pull metals toward a chosen object (other metal, probably), not necessarily towards you. A bit like Magneto.

- Aluminium (and that one Leechers use, don't remember. Chromium? - to work on others) - create or enlarge your metal reserves.

If this theory is right, your theories on Iron and Steel would be a good bet, although perhaps it would be pushing or pulling metals to or from other people, instead of other metals.

Aluminium and Chromium replenishing metals is the opposite of what they do, but it's not an external/internal flip. Those two are strict opposites of each other in terms of that dimension, so the best you'd get out of alloying Aluminium would be to allow Aluminium Gnats to function as Leechers, and alloyed Chromium would be a Gnat-like ability.

Duralumin and Nicrosil would work the same way- Nicrosil's atium alloy would be a Gnat-like ability, and Duralumin's alloy would allow Duralumin Gnats to function as Nicrobursts.

- Cadmium & Bendalloy - do something cool with timespace and speed. Shorten space (like in a wormhole)? Speed up a moving object (incl. FLT)? Timestop / Leap in time? Travel to Shadesmar (I doubt that one, Shadesmar is Cognitive, not Physical.)?

- Tin - see into other realms? Enter Shadesmar?

- Copper - block Allomancy at all in your coppercloud?

- Bronze - see people's souls?

- Zinc&Brass - mindreading? Creating emotions that weren't there?

For Cadmium and Bendalloy, I think it far more likely that as mentioned earlier in the thread, they would just effect the single person burning the alloy, given that they're external abilities. Likewise, Tin and Pewter alloyed with Atium would work like Chromium and Nicrosil- you boost the senses or physical abilities of someone you touch. And finally, the suggestion that alloyed Zinc and Brass would let you Riot or Soothe yourself was a good one.

Bronze could let someone you touch sense allomantic pulses while you burn its Atium alloy. As for Copper, you could perhaps centre a coppercloud around someone else, but that's only useful if it can be used at range, which might break the rules of allomancy slightly, so it might be of no more use than regular copper.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Ari

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I personally think that Atium-Electrum would be the future opposite of Gold, as has been mentioned. Note also that (on the table of Allomantic metals poster) Atium alloys give "expanded" Mental and Temporal effects while Lerasium alloys give "expanded" Physical and Enhancement effects. Some more food for thought.

That... raises a lot of questions. I mean, the person writing the section doesn't say anything about each God Metal only alloying with 8 other metals, though I suppose they might not know everything, either.

Just flipping the internal/external component doesn't seem to answer everything, to me. We have exactly one example (Malatium), and it doesn't fit that pattern perfectly, if only because we have the External of Gold, and it doesn't do what Malatium does. So, assuming that Aluminum Gnats will just become Leechers when that didn't happen with Gold doesn't really make sense to me. I am not certain what I am saying would happen, however, so I am going to revisit what we do know, and what I assume, to build a more concrete theory.

What is Atium? Pieces of Ruin's body. What is Ruin? A force for absolute destruction. What does Atium do? Lets you see a few seconds into the future. Yeah, this seems a little confusing to me, too. But what do we know about the future? It cannot be changed, except by someone who can see it. That means that, when burned, Atium lets you destroy causality, if only a little bit.

Alloy it with Gold. What is Gold? The Internal Temporal Pulling metal. It can let you see (and see through the eyes of) a past version of yourself. Nobody else can see or interact with this duplicate. What does alloyed Gold/Malatium do? It lets you see a past version of someone else. As far as we know, nobody else can see this duplicate, including the person themself). The other person cannot (to our knowledge) touch or see through the eyes of their duplicate, either. If they could, surely Rashek and the Lord Ruler would have reacted to each other quite dramatically. The person burning Malatium cannot interact with the duplicate in any way, either. Why not? There are some annotations on the subject, but they specifically state that "the Eleventh Metal isn't actually an alloy of gold, but an alloy of atium," so I think we may assume that some details of that explanation, at least, have changed as Brandon Sanderson developed his ideas further.

That was a bit of a dead end. But it gives me an idea - Atium is the essence of Ruin. Mix metals with the essence of Ruin and what magic do you get? Hemalurgy. What if the Atium alloys all duplicate when the metals would be used for in Hemalurgy? This is annoyingly impossible to test, since we do not know what Gold is used for in Hemalurgy, but as I type it, it makes sense to me: Lerasium, alloyed with a metal, gives you Allomancy with that metal. Why shouldn't it? That's what Preservation's power plus a given metal is. Therefore, I shall theorize that a Gold Hemalurgy Spike can steal memories of people's pasts, and thus Malatium lets you see part of another's past. By that standard, Atium/Iron would give prodigious strength when burned, while Atium/Steel would let you break the usual upper limits on Physical Allomancy while it was burning, and so on.

Most of that speculation didn't really lead up to my theory, did it? I suppose I should go back and delete it, but I am not that confident in my theory yet. We know so little about this, that I shall leave even my fruitless speculation - mabe it will help spark someone else's genius ideas.

That said, I really like this idea. To me, at least, it seems entirely logical.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Thor]

That... raises a lot of questions. I mean, the person writing the section doesn't say anything about each God Metal only alloying with 8 other metals, though I suppose they might not know everything, either.

I'm pretty sure that isn't what is being implied by the table. I believe that Atium-alloyed metals give Temporal and Mental powers and Lerasium-alloyed metals give Physical and Enhancement powers. 8 Temporal alloys and 8 Mental alloys for Atium, and 8 Physical alloys and 8 Enhancement alloys for Lerasium, is how I read it.

A guess based on this: a Lerasium-alloyed metal, when burned, decreases the burning rate of all other metals, an Enhancement effect.

Just flipping the internal/external component doesn't seem to answer everything, to me. We have exactly one example (Malatium), and it doesn't fit that pattern perfectly, if only because we have the External of Gold, and it doesn't do what Malatium does. So, assuming that Aluminum Gnats will just become Leechers when that didn't happen with Gold doesn't really make sense to me. I am not certain what I am saying would happen, however, so I am going to revisit what we do know, and what I assume, to build a more concrete theory.

What is Atium? Pieces of Ruin's body. What is Ruin? A force for absolute destruction. What does Atium do? Lets you see a few seconds into the future. Yeah, this seems a little confusing to me, too. But what do we know about the future? It cannot be changed, except by someone who can see it. That means that, when burned, Atium lets you destroy causality, if only a little bit.

Alloy it with Gold. What is Gold? The Internal Temporal Pulling metal. It can let you see (and see through the eyes of) a past version of yourself. Nobody else can see or interact with this duplicate. What does alloyed Gold/Malatium do? It lets you see a past version of someone else. As far as we know, nobody else can see this duplicate, including the person themself). The other person cannot (to our knowledge) touch or see through the eyes of their duplicate, either. If they could, surely Rashek and the Lord Ruler would have reacted to each other quite dramatically. The person burning Malatium cannot interact with the duplicate in any way, either. Why not? There are some annotations on the subject, but they specifically state that "the Eleventh Metal isn't actually an alloy of gold, but an alloy of atium," so I think we may assume that some details of that explanation, at least, have changed as Brandon Sanderson developed his ideas further.

I think that the line "...the Eleventh Metal isn't actually an alloy of Gold, but an alloy of Atium..." is pointing towards the table's definition for god metal alloys: the metal that is alloyed with Atium/Lerasium won't necessarily point out what effect the alloy will have. The alloy's ability is based off of Atium, not the base metal.

That was a bit of a dead end. But it gives me an idea - Atium is the essence of Ruin. Mix metals with the essence of Ruin and what magic do you get? Hemalurgy. What if the Atium alloys all duplicate when the metals would be used for in Hemalurgy? This is annoyingly impossible to test, since we do not know what Gold is used for in Hemalurgy, but as I type it, it makes sense to me: Lerasium, alloyed with a metal, gives you Allomancy with that metal. Why shouldn't it? That's what Preservation's power plus a given metal is. Therefore, I shall theorize that a Gold Hemalurgy Spike can steal memories of people's pasts, and thus Malatium lets you see part of another's past. By that standard, Atium/Iron would give prodigious strength when burned, while Atium/Steel would let you break the usual upper limits on Physical Allomancy while it was burning, and so on.

Most of that speculation didn't really lead up to my theory, did it? I suppose I should go back and delete it, but I am not that confident in my theory yet. We know so little about this, that I shall leave even my fruitless speculation - mabe it will help spark someone else's genius ideas.

That said, I really like this idea. To me, at least, it seems entirely logical.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

I believe that Gold is generally believed to steal Feruchemical "Temporal" powers. Unfortunately, the effect of Lerasium and its alloys of turning people into Mistborn/Mistings is not due to burning the metal, just eating it. Burning the metals have different effects. Other than that, the idea has merit.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Unfortunately, the effect of Lerasium and its alloys of turning people into Mistborn/Mistings is not due to burning the metal, just eating it.

Boof. Right you are.

Still, not knowing the real power of Lerasium alloys, I guess it's still the best data I have about that metal.

(And I really wish we knew the Atium alloy for something we understand better than Gold... so, virtually anything.)

[Windrunner]

Unfortunately, the effect of Lerasium and its alloys of turning people into Mistborn/Mistings is not due to burning the metal, just eating it.

Sorry, I don't mean to be a buzzkill but you are burning lerasium the first time you ingest it.

This is from the 17th Shard interview with Brandon in September of 2010. (I wish I knew how to put that in the quote heading)

17th Shard: If a Mistborn burns lerasium, as in, not just ingests it, what effect would it grant Allomantically?

Brandon: That is a RAFO. It would do something, but the thing you've gotta remember is that, when ingesting lerasium for the first time and gaining the powers, your body is actually burning it. Think of lerasium as a metal anyone can burn. Does that make sense?

The function of pure Lerasium is to increase a person's connection to Preservation, that increased connection makes them a Mistborn as a side affect.