Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return [spoilers]

[Chicken]

So I finally took a look at the back cover and this stood out like a sore thumb.

Obviously Shardwielding isn't Shardbearing, because Shardbearing isn't something that's gone and Shardbearers aren't magical, just have magical loot. So, anyone know what the heck that is?

Actually, I know the answer: we don't know. But I jumped to a conclusion (as I was typing this) from little to no evidence as a baseless theory full of holes suddenly appeared. Note that this contains spoilers for other Sanderson books.

In a world with two Shards, we had 3 magics. Now I know what you thought at first, bu nope: Elantrian, Dakhor and ChayShen. Warbreaker has one Shard and we saw a single magic. And those 3 magics you thought first also counts. Now look at this:

First imagine the first set of sets as set P and set R (or as set A and set S for another example, though we don't really know the real names of those).

Then imagine the second set of sets as H, O and C. Notice how many different areas there are in the second set of sets?

Obviously, a singe set would be alone.

So the theory: There's 7 completely different kinds of magic on Roshar, and we have only heard of 3 of those in Old Magic, Voidbinding and Surgebinding.

And the general consensus (or what I think is the general consensus) isn't necessarily correct: Surgebinding from Honor, Voidbinding from Odium and Old Magic from Cultivation. We know nothing about Voidbinding and Surgebinding seems to really be very closely associated with Honor, but especially Old Magic is troublesome. One boon and one curse Nightwatcher thinks is appropriate for you. What exactly does that got to do with Cultivation? Seriously? OTOH, it looks like a somewhat odd but plausible mix of Honor and Odium.

And going back to the start, there's Shardwielding. And we know there was something called Dawnshards and Almighty mentions that they'd be useful but are gone. Since Shardbearers aren't related to Shardwielding, I postulate that Shardwielding is related to Dawnshards. And back cover can't be lying to us (inconceivable!) so they'll come back at some point. Surgebinding is already "returning". And, I'll make another utterly baseless claim to say that Cultivation's real stuff is those: Dawncities, Dawnchant, Dawnsingers, Dawnpizza...=Language, permentant settlements, (maybe) medicine and healthcare, pizza... They all look like things that could easily tie into cultivating humanity.

We know magic, as general rule, comes from Shard interactions. But nowhere it says the Shards haggle about and draw up laws to govern mortal magics over dinner. My suspicion is that whole magic systems just spontaneously appear every time Shards are close with no conscious effort on their part, thanks to Adonalsium connection.

Furthermore, this would mean that the total number of magics possible in Cosmere is a stupidly large number that I'm too lazy to calculate. That kind of justification would give Sanderson enough cool magics to put in books for several lifetimes.

...

So there it is. Another off the wall "theory" that was sparked by some tiny thing. Make of it what you will.

[Kurkistan]

While I do like the idea that different magic systems can be mapped out exactly from Shard interactions (as well as the world that the Shards are on), I'm not sure if your application of this theory in the particular sense. First though, some possible evidence for your general theory:

Spoilers for Mistborn

From the Brandonothology:

1) Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

Emphasis added.

Add in the different worlds and you get all possible interactions. As to the numbers, it works out to 2^n-1 for each world, 2^16-1 for all shards on one world, and w*(2^16-1) for all worlds, where 'w' is the number of worlds in the cosmere.

Now on to criticism:

An alternative exists for Shardweilding being completely separate from Shardbearing, besides the obvious answer of them just being two names for the same thing. We know that Shardplate in Dalinar's visions is different: covered with glowing glyphs and possibly more powerful. This could simply be an interaction with Surgebinding, but that also raises the question of why the Windrunners in Dalinar's vision wore plate while Szeth, who shares their abilities (although exactly how is up in the air, so this point might not apply), is incapable of Surgebinding while in Shardplate.

Therefore, Shardweilding may be the "unlocking" of Shardplate's true power, with Shardplate simply being used on the "basic" settings in the present day, its wearers ignorant or unworthy of the entirety of its powers.

As to the Old Magic, I was actually surprised when you suggested Honor/Odium for it. As I was reading that section, I mentally ticked in "Cultivation/Odium" before I got to the end.

Arguments can still be made for the Old Magic coming completely from Cultivation (pruning to encourage growth and all of that. . .), but I think a Cultivation/Odium pairing would also work, with the two's powers "compromising" to provide a benefit (Cultivation) while also adding an unnecessary cost (Odium).

Edited November 5, 2011 by Kurkistan

[dj26792]

I'm going to argue that the old magic is completely cultivation, a gift and a curse, a gift to help you and a curse as pruning for personal growth, but taking it even further all the examples we have of 'good people' going for non selfish reasons we see them getting a gift that is really helpful and exactly what they need, while getting a relatively minor curse that in some cases is almost a blessing in itself, such as Dalinar losing his memories of his wife and being able to move on. While the stereotype I picked up from the book was that the curses are normally pretty terrible, because the people are normally asking for shallow selfish things and so they need a harsher curse requiring either more growth to deal with, or making them less a part of society, thus pruning away the weeds in society as a whole.

That is exactly what I would expect of a shard named cultivation, it makes it pretty and healthy personally and as part of the whole, or it kills it so the whole gets better.

[Kurkistan]

I'm going to argue that the old magic is completely cultivation, a gift and a curse, a gift to help you and a curse as pruning for personal growth, but taking it even further all the examples we have of 'good people' going for non selfish reasons we see them getting a gift that is really helpful and exactly what they need, while getting a relatively minor curse that in some cases is almost a blessing in itself, such as Dalinar losing his memories of his wife and being able to move on. While the stereotype I picked up from the book was that the curses are normally pretty terrible, because the people are normally asking for shallow selfish things and so they need a harsher curse requiring either more growth to deal with, or making them less a part of society, thus pruning away the weeds in society as a whole.

That is exactly what I would expect of a shard named cultivation, it makes it pretty and healthy personally and as part of the whole, or it kills it so the whole gets better.

I agree that it's still possible for the Old Magic to be completely Cultivation, but the evidence isn't definitively in favor of it.

We have three examples of the Old Magic so far (wiki, although it doesn't have Av's brother):

Dalinar:

Request: Unknown

Reward/Curse (which is ambiguous): Irretrievably lost all memory of his wife.

Curse/Reward (inverse of other): Unknown.

-In the interlude "Baxil," Av discussed his father and brother going to the Nightwatcher:

Av's Father:

Request: Asked for a way to keep his family alive through famine.

Reward: Received a valuable bolt of cloth, enough to support his family when it was sold.

Curse: Saw the world upside down, acclimated quickly. No long term ill-effects.

Av's Brother:

Request: Unknown, presumably "shallow."

Reward: Unknown

Curse: Lost feeling in both hands.

The example I want to focus in on is Av's Father. It is only a single data point, but a very interesting one. We also don't have enough data on Dalinar, and Av's Brother could easily be an example of Rosharian "Darwin Awards," as it were.

Av's Father made a moderate, altruistic request, got a sufficient reward, and was basically given a non-punishment. We see that absolutely no benefit on either end of the scale is derived from flipping someone's perception of the world. It had essentially no effect either way, neither improving nor "weeding" Av's Father, essentially serving as a token "curse" to keep with the rules. The "pruning" interests of Cultivation are in no way served by this curse, which begs the question of why it was applied at all.

The unnecessary application of a curse strongly suggests that the Old Magic is essentially deterministic. It follows that the curses negative effect is directly proportional to the "size" of the reward. The essential modesty of Av's Father's request mean a very small reward and a proportionally small curse.

Assuming this proportionality, why would a magic of Cultivation be so punitive, so arbitrary in it's pruning? It could still be the case that Cultivation is simply being expressed imperfectly through this magic system, but a Cultivation/Odium fusion also becomes more tenable.

If the Old Magic is a fusion of Cultivation and Odium, then it would make sense that Odium's influence would result in as large a curse as possible, limited only by the "size" of the reward. Any magic system which combined the desire to spur growth with pure hatred would result in such a mix, each wish yielding a certain "power" output which is of both Cultivation and Odium. Thus, the size of the wish demands a certain amount of influence from Cultivation, which also lets in a proportional amount of influence from Odium. Presumably, someone who came to the Nightwatcher and asked to be cursed as their "request" would be "rewarded" with a curse from Odium and "cursed" with a proportional reward from Cultivation.

This is all very theoretical, and we need much more data (as in more than one person with a full set of request/reward/curse. . .) before coming to definite conclusions about proportionality, but I find this model (although I am biased) to be persuasive.

P.S. Would someone with a copy of the book handy mind going on the Wiki and adding in Av's brother as a user of the Old Magic, with the correct details? The current table is incomplete.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Kurkistan

[fiveAM]

really interesting points in here but i was thinking, does there really have to be mixes of the different magics on Roshar?

Major cosmere spoilers in here.

We have only seen shard-mixed magic system in Mistborn and (I forget if it was explicitly explained) but that could be because Ruin and Preservation worked together at some point, creating a mixed (not necessarily fused) form of their respective magics Allomancy and Hemalury to create Feruchemy. We've seen that worlds and sentient beings can exist without a plurality of Shards on a given world, seen in Warbreaker with Endowment and the Breath system. Also, not all Shards are equal, possibly in terms of raw power, but not equal, like Honor says in Dalinar's last vision where Cultivation is better at seeing the future. So that can explain why Ruin and Preservation needed to work together to make life but Endowment didn't and possibly Honor/Cultivation/Odium didn't either.

With that, I think it is quite possible that Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and the Old Magic may just be Honor, Odium, Cultivation magics respectively. And Feruchemy's existence in Mistborn comes from the teamwork of Ruin and Preservation in creating Scadrial. As to why then 3 Shards may go to the same world if they don't need each other to create life, I see 2 possible explanations:

1) Hoid (er, I mean the author of the Letter) mentions Odium as the most dangerous of the 16, so maybe Honor and Cultivation went to the same world to keep him in check.

2) Honor and(?) Cultivation made life on Roshar and it was all Tranquiline Halls time and Odium showed up from wandering around the cosmere, maybe when he Splintered Aona and Skai on Sel.

To me, the simple proximity of Shards creating new magic systems seems like it could work but I feel that could get really hectic. If another Shard (say one from The Silence Divine since its so close) were to visit Roshar, would it suddenly create 4 more magic systems to the 7? Brandonothology says it is the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. Doesn't talk about the presence of multiple gods/Shards, but the one(s) who created it. (Although if I remember correctly, Brandon also said that the different worlds already existed when the Shards went to each world (not necessarily had life already but the planet itself already existed) so that seems to sort of contradict Shard creating the world vs. already exist thing...)

We are lacking in details of the magic systems right now but I'm sure it'll become clearer once the second book comes out.

One question though: Is Voidbinding mentioned in Brandonothology? I'm pretty sure it's not mentioned in the book. Is it really what it's called or just a temporary name for the magic system of Odium? Okay, my quick comment transformation to blabbering and a lot more checking facts than originally planned, over.

Edit: added spoiler tags (realized this is in Stormlight threads not General Theories... =p)

Edited November 6, 2011 by fiveAM

[CrazyRioter]

Voidbinding is mentioned twice in the book, once by an ardent, and once in the Ars Arcanum.

[Kurkistan]

really interesting points in here but i was thinking, does there really have to be mixes of the different magics on Roshar?

Major cosmere spoilers in here.

We have only seen shard-mixed magic system in Mistborn and (I forget if it was explicitly explained) but that could be because Ruin and Preservation worked together at some point, creating a mixed (not necessarily fused) form of their respective magics Allomancy and Hemalury to create Feruchemy. We've seen that worlds and sentient beings can exist without a plurality of Shards on a given world, seen in Warbreaker with Endowment and the Breath system. Also, not all Shards are equal, possibly in terms of raw power, but not equal, like Honor says in Dalinar's last vision where Cultivation is better at seeing the future. So that can explain why Ruin and Preservation needed to work together to make life but Endowment didn't and possibly Honor/Cultivation/Odium didn't either.

With that, I think it is quite possible that Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and the Old Magic may just be Honor, Odium, Cultivation magics respectively. And Feruchemy's existence in Mistborn comes from the teamwork of Ruin and Preservation in creating Scadrial. As to why then 3 Shards may go to the same world if they don't need each other to create life, I see 2 possible explanations:

1) Hoid (er, I mean the author of the Letter) mentions Odium as the most dangerous of the 16, so maybe Honor and Cultivation went to the same world to keep him in check.

2) Honor and(?) Cultivation made life on Roshar and it was all Tranquiline Halls time and Odium showed up from wandering around the cosmere, maybe when he Splintered Aona and Skai on Sel.

To me, the simple proximity of Shards creating new magic systems seems like it could work but I feel that could get really hectic. If another Shard (say one from The Silence Divine since its so close) were to visit Roshar, would it suddenly create 4 more magic systems to the 7? Brandonothology says it is the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. Doesn't talk about the presence of multiple gods/Shards, but the one(s) who created it. (Although if I remember correctly, Brandon also said that the different worlds already existed when the Shards went to each world (not necessarily had life already but the planet itself already existed) so that seems to sort of contradict Shard creating the world vs. already exist thing...)

We are lacking in details of the magic systems right now but I'm sure it'll become clearer once the second book comes out.

One question though: Is Voidbinding mentioned in Brandonothology? I'm pretty sure it's not mentioned in the book. Is it really what it's called or just a temporary name for the magic system of Odium? Okay, my quick comment transformation to blabbering and a lot more checking facts than originally planned, over.

Edit: added spoiler tags (realized this is in Stormlight threads not General Theories... =p)

Continuing Cosmere/Mistborn/Warbreaker spoilers:

I think the reason that Endowment can create life on his/her own (if he/she created it at all) is because the Intent of the Shard is fundamentally additive, while neither Ruin nor Preservation was capable of creating on their own because of their Intents. In Roshar's case, I think even Cultivation alone might have been capable of creating life.

Actually, an extra Shard on Roshar would create 8 more magic systems for a total of 15 [(2^4-1)-(2^3-1)], under this model.

Also, "curse you for using my own quote against me!" I could have sworn that I've seen a quote that the simple presence of a Shard or Shards is what enables the different magic systems. That one was the closest I could find, but I still believe that there is a quote from Brandon about Sazed causing havoc if he went to other Shardworlds. I can't find it for the life of me, though.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Don't forget that we don't know where Szeth is getting his powers. We know it's not from the same source that Kaladin gets his, making me think that he is using a magic system similar to Hemalurgy in that it "steals" magic from the other systems. (Note that this doesn't make it "evil" like Hemalurgy was, that was because it was of Ruin). Neither the Old Magic or Voidbinding (which the ardent referred to as some sort of divinatory magic) seem to act in a way that would give Szeth his powers.

Ardent's quote about Voidbinding (pg 285):

Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was trying to divine the future.

Also, Szeth's inability to use Shardplate and his magic reminds me of Allomancy and Hemalurgy. I've always felt that the reason that metals could (mostly) not be pulled or pushed from inside the body was due to some sort of Hemalurgic masking effect of the person's blood. This strikes me as something similar.

Note that this reinforces the evidence that Szeth's abilities come from a different magic system than Kaladin's, as we know that the Knights Radiant used Shardplate. Perhaps Shardplate that is being wielded "properly" wouldn't interfere, but somehow I don't think so.

Also, remember that the influence of the Shards isn't seen in how the magic is used, only in how it functions at a basic level.

Here are my thoughts on which magics go where:

Surgebinding - Honor.

Shardweilding - Honor/Odium (there are Honorblades, but there are no building tools, only swords and armor)

Szeth's Magic - Cultivation (as opposite of Shardweilding. Also, Shinovar is probably Cultivation's "home base")

Voidbinding - Cultivation/Odium (trys to see the future. Also, explains the ardent's hatred of it, being anti-Honor).

Old Magic - All Three (it's related to Voidbinding, and it feels like there are elements of Honor in it as well (better requests get better rewards), and elements of Odium (hateful punishments), and Cultivation (indirect rewards)).

So the last two magics unrevealed would be Honor/Cultivation and Odium (which are coincidentally enough, opposites).

[fiveAM]

Here are my thoughts on which magics go where:

Surgebinding - Honor.

Shardweilding - Honor/Odium (there are Honorblades, but there are no building tools, only swords and armor)

Szeth's Magic - Cultivation (as opposite of Shardweilding. Also, Shinovar is probably Cultivation's "home base")

Voidbinding - Cultivation/Odium (trys to see the future. Also, explains the ardent's hatred of it, being anti-Honor).

Old Magic - All Three (it's related to Voidbinding, and it feels like there are elements of Honor in it as well (better requests get better rewards), and elements of Odium (hateful punishments), and Cultivation (indirect rewards)).

So the last two magics unrevealed would be Honor/Cultivation and Odium (which are coincidentally enough, opposites).

I don't know if I would say that Shardwielding is a magic system. Overall, we have yet to see any evidence of the old Shardplate and blades doing more or anything different than the current ones (other than implying very heavily that surgebinding was useable while wearing Shardplates before). The only place I can think of where the Shardplates did more than the current era's is in Dalinar's vision where he meets the 2 Radiants in the forest. One of them jump in a huge arc (described as something more than a simple Shardplate assisted jump, but it wasn't flying) which sounds very similar to the fight scene where Szeth assassinates the king of Jah Keved where he binds a part of his weight up to make himself lighter. Magic systems are inherent by the intent of the shards they are based on, the simple existence of materials isn't enough to be a magic system. I could see Shardplates and blades being an invention or result of a magic system but since there isn't a requirement nor is it an ability to use/wield Shardplates/blades, anyone can use them.

Also, I like your connection of Shinovar as Cultivation's base, which would mean that the Old Magic isn't purely Cultivation's as it's further east, but I don't think Szeth's magic would be from Cultivation. There is a thorough rejection of Szeth as Truthless in Shinovar, it doesn't seem to stem from him killing someone or picking up a weapon, we've seen the warrior class in one of the interludes, which I feel the surgebinding that Szeth does seems to be a possible reason for it. If what Szeth is wielding is Cultivation's power, why would the Shin, if Shinovar is the center for Cultivation, reject it? Maybe the Horneaters have some connection too? They have a similar system of cooks and farmers at high importance and soldiers at low (the 1st son, 2nd son thing).

[Arcanist Lupus]

I don't know if I would say that Shardwielding is a magic system. Overall, we have yet to see any evidence of the old Shardplate and blades doing more or anything different than the current ones (other than implying very heavily that surgebinding was useable while wearing Shardplates before).

There is one piece of evidence.

From the back cover of the hardcover:

The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again.

This indicates very strongly to me that the current owners of Shardblades are not "Shardwielding".

Also, I don't think we know enough about Szeth's banishment to make judgement with it. It could be because of his Surgebinding (pseudoSurgebinding?), but it could equally be because of his Shardblade (there might be a distinction between normal weapons and Shardblades in his culture). The only major hint I know of is the line "He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did." What that means, I don't know.

I can see an argument that Szeth's powers fall under Honor/Cultivation, as he seems to be very motivated by honor. If this is true, and my interference theory is correct (a very big if) that would Shardwielding in pure Odium, which would bring up a lot of odd questions about Honorblades.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Sir_Read-a-Lot

[fiveAM]

touche on the back cover quote. I concede that Shardwielding could possibly be a magic system, but i'm a bit reluctant to say it as a definite. The wording there is fairly ambiguous and i feel it leaves open multiple possibilities, probably what Brandon did on purpose. I wonder if Soul Casting could be a separate magic system from surgebinding. I know they mention that the Radiants had 2 Orders based around Soul Casting but I feel like the Lashings and Soul Casting are fundamentally different on how they operate. I don't see why the Radiants would be bound to only Surgebinding, especially if there are 7 different magic systems. I think Honor/Cultivation would be a good fit for it. You have to tell a truth, the more powerful the truth, it seems the more powerful of a change you can illicit. Although considering the danger aspect of the whole deal maybe Soul Casting fits better as Honor/Cultivation/Odium, and Old Magic is Honor/Cultivation. Old Magic seems more of a fair trade/slightly better deal to you (Av's Father) than having a malicious hateful punishment. Cultivation is growth and when a child is growing up, you teach them lessons, some which include punishments so that they learn; you only give things to the child for free all the time, it only spoils them and they remain a child (spoiled rich heir archetype). Such punishments hold no malice or hate in their intent but rather as a necessary component for the child to grow.

[Arcanist Lupus]

touche on the back cover quote. I concede that Shardwielding could possibly be a magic system, but i'm a bit reluctant to say it as a definite. The wording there is fairly ambiguous and i feel it leaves open multiple possibilities, probably what Brandon did on purpose. I wonder if Soul Casting could be a separate magic system from surgebinding. I know they mention that the Radiants had 2 Orders based around Soul Casting but I feel like the Lashings and Soul Casting are fundamentally different on how they operate. I don't see why the Radiants would be bound to only Surgebinding, especially if there are 7 different magic systems. I think Honor/Cultivation would be a good fit for it. You have to tell a truth, the more powerful the truth, it seems the more powerful of a change you can illicit. Although considering the danger aspect of the whole deal maybe Soul Casting fits better as Honor/Cultivation/Odium, and Old Magic is Honor/Cultivation. Old Magic seems more of a fair trade/slightly better deal to you (Av's Father) than having a malicious hateful punishment. Cultivation is growth and when a child is growing up, you teach them lessons, some which include punishments so that they learn; you only give things to the child for free all the time, it only spoils them and they remain a child (spoiled rich heir archetype). Such punishments hold no malice or hate in their intent but rather as a necessary component for the child to grow.

I'm pretty sure Brandon has confirmed somewhere that Soulcasting is a subset of Surgebinding.

You make good points though. I'm not ruling out anything.

Another thought. There are 10 levels of Voidbinding, according to the Ars Arcanum. If we assume that tens are a signature of Honor, than that puts Voidbinding somewhere on Honor's spectrum.

Then again, I'm starting to build assumptions on top of assumptions on top of assumptions at this point. So...

[CrazyRioter]

10 seems to be a signature of Roshar in general.

[fiveAM]

Ya.. I really should read through all of Brandonothology. I read a part of the cosmere part of it but it got me confused because of all the references to Mistborn stuff (which i haven't read in a while so kind of took me a while to remember) and Elantris stuff (which i haven't read yet)

[Arcanist Lupus]

10 seems to be a signature of Roshar in general.

That's the question, isn't it? Is 10 a number of Honor, or of Roshar? I'm leaning towards Honor, since in Mistborn, 16 was Preservation's number, not the number for the whole world.

On the other hand, although 16 was Preservation's number, it carried over into the other two magic systems as well. So maybe there's overflow.

I don't know.

[Kurkistan]

That's the question, isn't it? Is 10 a number of Honor, or of Roshar? I'm leaning towards Honor, since in Mistborn, 16 was Preservation's number, not the number for the whole world.

On the other hand, although 16 was Preservation's number, it carried over into the other two magic systems as well. So maybe there's overflow.

I don't know.

Actually, 10 being "the Number" for Roshar while 16 is the Number for Scadrial would mesh beautifully with the theory of the Shardworlds shaping the magic systems upon them. All (2) of the shards on Scadrial and all (3) of their magic systems were bound by the same "16 rule" and the same 16 metals, so it would make sense for Roshar's magic systems to similarly correspond to a "10 rule," perhaps with a similar limit of 10 in another, as yet unknown, way.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Arcanist Lupus]

Actually, 10 being "the Number" for Roshar while 16 is the Number for Scadrial would mesh beautifully with the theory of the Shardworlds shaping the magic systems upon them. All (2) of the shards on Scadrial and all (3) of their magic systems were bound by the same "16 rule" and the same 16 metals, so it would make sense for Roshar's magic systems to similarly correspond to a "10 rule," perhaps with a similar limit of 10 in another, as yet unknown, way.

I was under the impression that it was Preservation who was sticking 16s everywhere, and Ruin had nothing to do with it. It was his "signature".

[Kurkistan]

I was under the impression that it was Preservation who was sticking 16s everywhere, and Ruin had nothing to do with it. It was his "signature".

Preservation stuck 16s in when he set the Mists to "autosnap" mode, but the 16 metals for Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy were there from the get-go, I think. It was my impression that Preservation either had to choose 16 or simply chose it for symmetry when he set up the Mists.

[Tulir]

Did anyone else notice that in Dalinor's vision about the Radiants abandoning their Shardplates and Shardblades, the blades "dimmed", so maybe they need to be returned to the correct bloodlines or maybe that was Odium's influence because Syl said she didn't like the weapons, and I thought honorspren were of Honor, so they might not like Odium's influence.

[CrazyRioter]

well I don't think it's a matter of bloodlines, but of having a bond with a spren and saying the Ideals.

[Tulir]

That is a good point.

[Wispsy]

Preservation stuck to the number 16, due to its import to the cosmere I think, but there are more then 16 metals, preservation tweaked things to make 16 his calling card , personal choice! There is nothing to suggest each planet has a number and all things on that planet must ultimately correspond to that number

[Tulir]

I don't remember exactly, but did the book discribe what needed to happen for a person to get an honorspren bond?

[hoser]

As I've suggested in a couple of threads lately, I wonder whether Shard bearing as in Dalinar's final vision refers to creatures (voidish or not) taking up Shards of Adonalsium and enabling magics. If Tanavast was killed and his Shard (Honor) has been inactive, then his vision could talking about somehow getting hold of the Shard and somebody doing as Vin and Sazed did in picking them up.

This would fit with the back cover reference about there still being magic before Tanavast was killed.

I read surgebinding coming from acting in ways that attract certain spren that engage in the "Nahel Bond". Honorable actions would attract an honorspren and the ideals would lead toward the Knight Radiant thing. Some non-honor spren can also create the "Nahel Bond" (see Alakavish? from the vision with Nohadon) that creates surgebinders.

There are supposedly 30 magic systems in Roshar. Each of the ten orders of the KR has a unique pairing of two surges. I like the idea that I've read elsewhere that Windrunners (Kaladin) use Pressure and Gravity. Elsewhere, I've seen it suggested Jasnah uses Soulcasting and Stormlight blasting (something like that) while Shallan uses Soulcasting and her Memory thing. Dalinar seems to be able to move extra fast and be extraordinarily strong. So we've got Pressure, Gravity, Soulcasting, Strength, Memory, Stormlight transmission. The healing thing (Regrowth?) that the KR woman does with the fabrial seems like it could be distinct power also. At least some KR also seem to be able to do a teleportation thing too. With this many, it almost seems like there should be 10 for some reason.

Now what would the 30 systems be? Three shards times 10 abilities? Or is the pair of abilities that the Windrunners use (Pressure and Gravity) a magic system? Three shards times 10 sets of pairs of abilities from a palette? Can there be positive and negative abilities that different shards can't endow their agents with? Ouch! I just don't know enough...

[name_here]

I think Dalinar is a Shardplate specialist, and if his order has any powers beyond superior use of Plate we haven't seen them. His armor glows faintly whenever he's being exceptionally spectacular with it, and in addition to being even stronger, faster, and more graceful than normal Shardbearers he apparently managed to activate some sort of gyroscopic stabilizing effect during the fight with the chasmfiend to land on his feet when thrown. But I think those are all inactive powers of the armor that only Knights Radiant can access instead of an ability specific to one order.