Next steps: Parshmen, Parshendi and Voidbringers, oh my! (spoilers)

[hoser]

I assume that Parshmen will be turned to Voidbringers by the Everstorm (Stormfather says so also).

 

I further assume that Parshendi have a choice (Rlain and escapees).

 

I assume that Parshmen can take on other Parshendi forms: dullform, mateform, warrior, ...

 

Kaladin is going back to Hearthstone. 

 

Should Kaladin take Rlain somewhere to start converting Parshmen to Parshendi. 

 

Obviously, anybody who doubts that their slaves will become Voidbringers will not want them to become Parshendi. 

 

Politics and slave ownership aside, the humans are better off with allied or neutral Parshendi than Voidbringers, so they should be converting all the Parshmen they can to Parshendi. 

 

I assume that Parshendi would need to be emancipated, but that is a separate issue. 

 

I can't see anybody agreeing to free or change their slaves until they see the danger, but by then it will be too late. 

 

Should Kaladin and Rlain just do it to people's slaves because it's the right thing?

 

Does this make sense or have I lost it?

[xbauks]

I assume that Parshmen will be turned to Voidbringers by the Everstorm (Stormfather says so also).

I further assume that Parshendi have a choice (Rlain and escapees).

I assume that Parshmen can take on other Parshendi forms: dullform, mateform, warrior, ...

Kaladin is going back to Hearthstone.

Should Kaladin take Rlain somewhere to start converting Parshmen to Parshendi.

Obviously, anybody who doubts that their slaves will become Voidbringers will not want them to become Parshendi.

Politics and slave ownership aside, the humans are better off with allied or neutral Parshendi than Voidbringers, so they should be converting all the Parshmen they can to Parshendi.

I assume that Parshendi would need to be emancipated, but that is a separate issue.

I can't see anybody agreeing to free or change their slaves until they see the danger, but by then it will be too late.

Should Kaladin and Rlain just do it to people's slaves because it's the right thing?

Does this make sense or have I lost it?

It hasn't been explicitly stated what will happen to the parshendi/parshmen with the everstorm. I got the feeling that the void spren would forcefully convert anyone that was outside during an everstorm.

[Scriptorian]

And there's the fact that listeners can only change form during highstorms. I think the everstorm is getting there first.

[PudgyNinja]

Do we know that the Parshendi can convert Parshmen into Parshendi?  I don't remember that.

[+rhaiynebow]

No, I don't think we know that for sure. The way it's spoken of in the books, it seems like they are a different species, not a different "form" to me. 

Then she saw the dullforms.

They looked much like what the humans called "parshmen," though they were a little taller and not nearly as stupid. Still, dullform was a limiting form, without the capacities and advantages of newer forms.

 

She doesn't specifically say "the slaveform" or anything like that.

 

Actually, just searched "slaveform" and it's there! Based on this, in theory they can convert them to parshendi if they can attach a spren to them. But it may work kind of like it does with humans. Not ALL humans can bond with spren, or rather, the spren don't choose to bond with them. Maybe it's similar with the Parshmen. Spren WON'T bond with them???

 

The old songs spoke of hundreds of forms. Now they knew of only five. Well, six if one counted slaveform, the form with no spren, no soul, and no song. The form the humans were accustomed to, the ones they called parshmen. It wasn't really a form at all, however, but a lack of any form.

[DiamondMind]

I'm going to highlight your incorrect or unknown assumptions, hoser:

I assume that Parshmen will be turned to Voidbringers by the Everstorm (Stormfather says so also).

 

I further assume that Parshendi have a choice (Rlain and escapees).

 

I assume that Parshmen can take on other Parshendi forms: dullform, mateform, warrior, ...

 

Kaladin is going back to Hearthstone. 

 

Should Kaladin take Rlain somewhere to start converting Parshmen to Parshendi. 

 

Obviously, anybody who doubts that their slaves will become Voidbringers will not want them to become Parshendi. 

 

Politics and slave ownership aside, the humans are better off with allied or neutral Parshendi than Voidbringers, so they should be converting all the Parshmen they can to Parshendi. 

 

I assume that Parshendi would need to be emancipated, but that is a separate issue. 

 

I can't see anybody agreeing to free or change their slaves until they see the danger, but by then it will be too late. 

 

Should Kaladin and Rlain just do it to people's slaves because it's the right thing?

 

Does this make sense or have I lost it?

 

1. We don't know what happens to parshmen/parshendi in an everstorm, really. We don't see what happens to the Parshendi refugees, and Rlain escaped with the rest of the army before the brunt of the everstorm hit. If he had been present, perhaps during in equivalent of the Stormfather appearing, he may not have gotten a choice to switch forms. The spren might have just entered him, like it did to Eshonai when she changed her mind during her transformation.

 

2. We have no evidence that the parshmen can change forms. Sure, their the same species, but something is different about the parshmen. My theory is that the parshmen can't change form because the Bondsmiths ejected their spren and sealed them no they can no longer bond voluntarily. I think that the Everstorm will override that seal, though.

 

3. If it was possible to change the parshmen into different forms, don't you think that the Parshendi would have done so already? To free their enslaved brethren, I think they would have delayed killing Gavilar despite the fear of their gods. No, for some reason they cannot and just pity the parshmen instead.

[PudgyNinja]

No, I don't think we know that for sure. The way it's spoken of in the books, it seems like they are a different species, not a different "form" to me. 

 

She doesn't specifically say "the slaveform" or anything like that.

 

Actually, just searched "slaveform" and it's there! Based on this, in theory they can convert them to parshendi if they can attach a spren to them. But it may work kind of like it does with humans. Not ALL humans can bond with spren, or rather, the spren don't choose to bond with them. Maybe it's similar with the Parshmen. Spren WON'T bond with them???

 

Right, I know that they're just trapped in slaveform, but from what we read, it sounded to me like the Parshendi needed to perform the ritual on themselves - they couldn't do it to others.

[+rhaiynebow]

Good point. If they gave them a spren trapped in a gemstone and stuck them out in a highstorm...maybe it would take but I doubt it. I still think it's selective. Either by the spren refusing to bond with them, or from what you said PudgyNinja...they have to do the ritual 100% on their own.

[hoser]

Excellent points, Diamondmind. Upvote!

I'm going to highlight your incorrect or unknown assumptions, hoser:

 

1. We don't know what happens to parshmen/parshendi in an everstorm, really. We don't see what happens to the Parshendi refugees, and Rlain escaped with the rest of the army before the brunt of the everstorm hit. If he had been present, perhaps during in equivalent of the Stormfather appearing, he may not have gotten a choice to switch forms. The spren might have just entered him, like it did to Eshonai when she changed her mind during her transformation.

 

2. We have no evidence that the parshmen can change forms. Sure, their the same species, but something is different about the parshmen. My theory is that the parshmen can't change form because the Bondsmiths ejected their spren and sealed them no they can no longer bond voluntarily. I think that the Everstorm will override that seal, though.

 

3. If it was possible to change the parshmen into different forms, don't you think that the Parshendi would have done so already? To free their enslaved brethren, I think they would have delayed killing Gavilar despite the fear of their gods. No, for some reason they cannot and just pity the parshmen instead.

1.  It may be inevitable, but there are possibilities other than inevitability.  If Eshonai hadn't been trying to be taken by the spren beforehand or even been trying to be taken by another spren, would the spren have been able to force it's way in?  Had her previous preparations weakened her ability to resist?  If the Parshmen shelter from the everstorm and the carefully transform to other forms during the next highstorm, could they take a safe form?  Is the Everstorm weaker because the stormform singers were slaughtered during the summoning?

 

2. We have no evidence that they can't either.  Maybe they are just so passive without spren that they haven't figured it out/been motivated. 

 

3. We know that they didn't.  They may have put their survival/freedom first.  Some Alethi wanted to just conquer them.  They may have figured they should get the treaty first and not wanted to upset the apple cart.  During the war, converting them would risk their spying operations being discovered. 

 

I really just think they are people, and must have free will somehow.  The comet spren that bothers Eshonai after her transformation seems suspicious also. 

 

OTOH, I know nothing. 

[sailense]

2. We have no evidence that they can't either.  Maybe they are just so passive without spren that they haven't figured it out/been motivated. 

 

While that is true, I think the discussion Eshonai has with her mother about the Last Legion seems to indicate that the Parshendi were able to escape whatever fate befell the parshmen and I'm in agreement with DiamondMind on that point.

[hoser]

I'm going to highlight your incorrect or unknown assumptions, hoser:

...

2. We have no evidence that the parshmen can change forms. Sure, their the same species, but something is different about the parshmen. My theory is that the parshmen can't change form because the Bondsmiths ejected their spren and sealed them no they can no longer bond voluntarily. I think that the Everstorm will override that seal, though. ...

 

 

While that is true, I think the discussion Eshonai has with her mother about the Last Legion seems to indicate that the Parshendi were able to escape whatever fate befell the parshmen and I'm in agreement with DiamondMind on that point.

Another possibility is that there is a seal as Diamondmind posits, but it can be affected by a Bondsmith and the Stormfather working together. 

 

Logistics will be a problem, of course.  I hope that Wit and Jasnah aren't just hiking around the wilderness for a week.  Jasnah could elsecall Rlain somewhere in a jiffy, presumably.