Size limitations of metalminds

[Samaldin]

I was just wondering today if there is an upper and/or lower limit to the size of metalminds. Could a steel Ferring charge Newcago and tap it everywhere in the city? Could a Ferring charge metaldust (or single specs of metaldust)? If yes i wonder how far down we can go, i believe in Feruchemy metals are definded by their atomic structur, so charging a single atom should be impossible but how big would the atomic structure have to be?

[Tsidqiyah]

1: Newcago -  That would likely depend on the type of steel. If it is not the right composition no charging/tapping could be done. Assuming, that it is this right stuff you could likely charge and tap the city. I believe there isn't a upper boundary on size (no WoB that i am aware of but we could get some), but I suspect there would be lag based on how far apart the charge and tap sites are, or if the charge fills the city evenly. (personal suspicion only. I like "b" for how charging Newcago would work.)

          a: Even if the investiture stays put where is was charged and then flows as fast as electricity (about the speed of light) to you, tapping away from the charging point would result in lag, but it would require a lot before it was noticeable. This would result in no power for a moment then it will be there like normal.

          b: If the charge fills the city evenly tapping would experience the above lag as the investiture flows back toward you. This would result in instant power but it would be slightly less as it comes to you from every inch of the city. 

2: Metaldust -  No idea what the lower boundary would be. Likely it would need to be big enough it could be thought of (cognitively) as the desired metal. so my guess a invisble speck is too small.

 

Though if you burned iron of steel in Newcago would you see a single line? or hundreds of billions?

[clevelam]

I believe the metalmind has to be at least touchable for you to fill it, so no using metal dust, but we have not seen any metalmind smaller than can be comfortably handled. From what I remember, the medallions from south Scadrial are the smallest we have seen, or maybe TLR's earrings and rings, but the threads of metal through the bands of mourning are less volume wise, but had way more Investiture per volume than the coins or earrings. We might see more micro-metalminds in the future Eras, but those might have to be Invested via a different process, or through more skill as ferrings become more common. 

This is off track, but imagine a hemalurgic spike bullet, aimed correctly, would forcibly give the person a hemalurgic ability. Or even further into the future, micro allomancy grenade bullets fueled by chromium, wiping the stores of metal without need for a leecher. 

[Weltall]

26 minutes ago, Tsidqiyah said:

Though if you burned iron of steel in Newcago would you see a single line? or hundreds of billions?

I'm not sure what you'd see originally but we know from Wax's example that with effort you can focus your attention and percieve things that were originally a single line as separate ones representing component pieces (ie, seeing separate lines for the bullet, the casing and the primer cap) and we have evidence you can do this with genuinely single bits of metal as Kelsier was able to manipulate metal rods by simultaneously Pushing on one end while Pulling on the other. So with a bit of concentration you could probably 'see' as many or as few lines in Newcago as you wanted to. Though you might need to be a Savant to pull it off.

[CaptainRyan]

On 3/21/2017 at 2:58 PM, Tsidqiyah said:

I suspect there would be lag based on how far apart the charge and tap sites are, or if the charge fills the city evenly.

I believe we know that Feruchemy does not evenly spread through a metal mind but, instead, fills like a hard drive with new data being added. There was a WoB about if one Feruchemist stores something in a metalmind and then another Feruchemist stores it what would happen and Brandon said that the part of the metal mind that the first Feruchemist stored would be inaccessible to the second Feruchemist. He then gave the example of "corrupted sections of a hard drive".

 

Adding a bit more @The One Who Connects, @8bitBob:

To clarify, I was not responding directly to the OP's question about the size of metalminds but the followup question involving storing in New Cago and then tapping from another part of the city and how that would affect rates of transfer, etc.

8bitBob supplied the below WoB's and I think they help me make a case for my argument that Feruchemical charges are not stored evenly throughout the metalmind but, instead, fill up specific parts.

From below: "...the charges are just stored in separate pieces of the metal...". This is discussing if two Feruchemists use the same metalmind. Their charges are stored separately in the metalmind. If the first charge was spread evenly throughout the metalmind then the second charge would seem to mingle with the first, no? The hard drive analogy used by Brandon seems to support this idea of separating differently keyed charges into separate portion of the metalmind.

I would like to see Brandon answer the following question to help further clarify: "If a Feruchemist/Ferring stores a small amount of an attribute in a metalmind and then cuts that metalmind in half, would each half have equal portions of the stored attribute?"

 

21 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

Hide contents

INTERVIEW: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

READERAT2046

Can a Feruchemist store an attribute in a metalmind that someone else has already stored in and if so, do the charges affect each other in any way?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but the charges are just stored in separate pieces of the metal, and don't really influence one another

  Hide contents

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.)

This holds for basic uses of the metallurgic arts. Once you start playing with some of the more advanced parts of the magic, you can achieve different results, which are currently RAFO

Source

Edited March 23, 2017 by CaptainRyan
Clarification

[The One Who Connects]

17 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

I believe we know that Feruchemy does not evenly spread through a metal mind but, instead, fills like a hard drive with new data being added. There was a WoB about if one Feruchemist stores something in a metalmind and then another Feruchemist stores it what would happen and Brandon said that the part of the metal mind that the first Feruchemist stored would be inaccessible to the second Feruchemist. He then gave the example of "corrupted sections of a hard drive".

Fairly certain that the "corrupted sections of a hard drive" bit was from a different WoB about forging a Metalmind into a different metal.

All I remember from the two F-Users with the same Metalmind entry was that the charges are stored separately.

[8bitBob]

17 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

I believe we know that Feruchemy does not evenly spread through a metal mind but, instead, fills like a hard drive with new data being added. There was a WoB about if one Feruchemist stores something in a metalmind and then another Feruchemist stores it what would happen and Brandon said that the part of the metal mind that the first Feruchemist stored would be inaccessible to the second Feruchemist. He then gave the example of "corrupted sections of a hard drive".

@The One Who Connects is correct here, and you're mixing up two WoB, neither of which was related to metalmind size. I believe these are the ones you're referring to:

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

READERAT2046

Can a Feruchemist store an attribute in a metalmind that someone else has already stored in and if so, do the charges affect each other in any way?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but the charges are just stored in separate pieces of the metal, and don't really influence one another

Spoiler

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.)

This holds for basic uses of the metallurgic arts. Once you start playing with some of the more advanced parts of the magic, you can achieve different results, which are currently RAFO

Source

 

Edited March 22, 2017 by 8bitBob

[DocHoliday]

On 3/21/2017 at 6:37 PM, Weltall said:

I'm not sure what you'd see originally but we know from Wax's example that with effort you can focus your attention and percieve things that were originally a single line as separate ones representing component pieces (ie, seeing separate lines for the bullet, the casing and the primer cap) and we have evidence you can do this with genuinely single bits of metal as Kelsier was able to manipulate metal rods by simultaneously Pushing on one end while Pulling on the other. So with a bit of concentration you could probably 'see' as many or as few lines in Newcago as you wanted to. Though you might need to be a Savant to pull it off.

Wax's case with the bullet was a matter of perception, Cognitively. A bullet, is a bullet. A gun is a gun. They are however made up of individual pieces. 

If  we were to apply the same concept to Newcago; the Feruchemists perception of where he is storing it could affect exactly where that Charge is. If he sees himself as Filling Newcago, I can't see any reason that sage Charge couldn't be tapped anywhere.