The Unforgable Metal

[Stormgate]

I realize that trying to use a soulstamp on aluminum is pointless. However, could a soulstamp be made that turns something into aluminum? And would that soulstamp be able to be removed, unforging the metal?

[Argent]

Hmm. I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to Forge something into aluminum - it's almost the same as Soulcasting something into aluminum, and we know this is done on Roshar. After this it gets interesting though. Unlike Soulcasting, Forging - the way I understand it - works by continuously fighting the target object's Spiritual aspect, twisting it into whatever the Forger desired. Once the mark is removed, or fades, the object reverts back to its original Realmatic form - and Forging something into aluminum would have that exact effect, I believe. Once an object's Spiritual aspect is changed to that of one made of aluminum, the unforgeable metal's immunity to Investiture will kick in and reject the continuous effects of the mark, bouncing the object back to its original form.

[Yata]

Something in the Allumin (I and someone think that is because the Allumin has not a Spiritual Aspect) give it the propriety of bein Unforgiable.

Whatever is the reason I suppose that is impossible to give this strangness to a material through a system that can't influence this oddly propriety.
 

[Moogle]

Stormlight spoilers:

One can Soulcast things into aluminum, but I'd guess they can't Soulcast aluminum into other things. This suggests you could in fact Forge yourself some aluminum.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

I don't know... Forgery already has some restrictions on changing what something is made out of.

 

It'd be impossible to Forge wood into aluminum, for instance. There just isn't a way to explain why a log of oak, grown in a particular forest, would actually be a lump of rare metal.

Another metal might be possible, but there would have to be a plausible scenario to explain why the miners who dug up the ore got aluminum instead of copper. (compare the lead to gold explanation from the book)

 

The easiest way to create aluminum this way might be stamping a work of art. Change history so that a sculpture decided to cast his statue out of aluminum instead of bronze. Still not very likely, due to the cost of aluminum with Sel-level technology, but it is possible.

[Yata]

Moogle but the Soulcasting and the Forgery work with different Method.

Stormlight Spoiler:

Soulcasting works by changing the Cognitive Aspect of Object while Forgery works with the Spiritual. Therefore the fact that something is possible with one system don't mean that is true for another. The Soulcasting ignore the "Spiritual part" and if the Allumin's odd is in the his Spiritual Aspect we had 2 totally different outcome.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Yata

[Stormgate]

I think that in certain situations, it's plausible that some things could be turned into aluminum. For example, in Shai's cell (the one with 44 kinds of stone) she may have been able to simply get the stone to turn to aluminum, since it would make a good cell for a Forger.

[Yata]

I think that in certain situations, it's plausible that some things could be turned into aluminum. For example, in Shai's cell (the one with 44 kinds of stone) she may have been able to simply get the stone to turn to aluminum, since it would make a good cell for a Forger.

The problem that we have is "without thinking about "plausible or not" is possible at all to forge something into allumin". ?

The anser is quite complex because we don't know why the Allumin si "strange" in the Cosmere's Magic.

We know that on the Physical Ream and in the Cognitive Realm is a normal material. Therefore the "Oddly" has to be in the Spiritual. That are exactly what the Forgery uses to make his trick.

Maybe the Allumin have an overcoming "Spiritual Aspect" or maybe it have a "quite null" Spiritual Aspect, personally I think that is true the second (the "Spiritual emptyness") from a WoB about Allumin VS Shardblade.

If this is true, the Forgery can't change anything in the Allumin (and it's the reason to the Unforgable metal) and to Forgery something into Allumin you have to destroy it's Spiritual Aspect (that I suppose is quite beyond the Forgery's possibility).

[Moogle]

Moogle but the Soulcasting and the Forgery work with different Method.

Stormlight Spoiler:

Soulcasting works by changing the Cognitive Aspect of Object while Forgery works with the Spiritual. Therefore the fact that something is possible with one system don't mean that is true for another. The Soulcasting ignore the "Spiritual part" and if the Allumin's odd is in the his Spiritual Aspect we had 2 totally different outcome.

 

Soulcasting is called soul casting. Just because you use it in Shadesmar does not mean it does not attempt to change the object's soul - which, we know, is made of Investiture. When you use Stormlight with Soulcasting, you probably use it to craft it a whole new soul - which is why Soulcasting takes so much Investiture.

 

I sincerely doubt Soulcasting is primarily Cognitive, even if you need to overcome an object's Cognitive resistance in order to change it. I think that it and Forgery probably share the similar mechanics on a very deep level. Soulcasting brute forces an object's soul, but Forgery carefully manipulates it.

 

I grant it's not altogether certain, though - but I don't agree with how you state Soulcasting works, necessarily. We don't have all the evidence.

 

I also point to two VERY similar things with Soulcasting and Forgery:

 

TES:

Shai pressed her stamp down on the tabletop. As always, the stamp sank slightly into the material. A soulstamp left a seal you could feel, regardless of the material. She twisted the stamp a half turn— this did not blur the ink, though she did not know why. One of her mentors had taught that it was because by this point the seal was touching the object’s soul and not its physical presence.

 

SA:

Jasnah closed her eyes, pressing her hand against the fallen boulder. She raised her head, inhaling slowly. The stones on the back of her hand began to glow more fiercely, the smokestone in particular growing so bright it was difficult to look at. Shallan held her breath. The only thing she dared do was blink, committing the scene to memory. For a long, extended moment, nothing happened. And then, briefly, Shallan heard a sound. A low thrumming, like a distant group of voices, humming together a single, pure note. Jasnah’s hand sank into the rock.

 

If what Shai says is true, and the stamp is indeed touching the object's soul, Jasnah's hand probably is as well.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Moogle

[Yata]

You may have right, If your Interpretation is true the Soulcasting "replace" a soul with another new-created while the Forgery "edit" the Soul.

(With the "Allumin Spiritual's Emptyness theory")

Therefore a Soulcaster may "create" the "Allumin's Odd" that is juas a "Spiritual Emptyness" may be easier than any other material. But a Forgery have to "Destroy" the Spiritual aspect of an Object and I honest can't think of a Plausible cause for this.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

My theory:

 

Forgery changes the Physical by changing the cognitive, which may have an effect on the Spritual.

For example, the table Shai restores. She changes how the table was cared for, how the table believes people perceive it.

This is a cognitive change, which IMO had little to no effect on the Spiritual aspect of said table

 

Soulcasting changes the Physical by changing the Spiritual, which definitely has an effect on the Cognitive.

When Jasnah soulcasts the boulder in Kharbranth to smoke, she changes it from one of the ten essences to another.

This is basically saying that she switches out which spiritual 'ideal' the object is linked to.

 

This will automatically affect the cognitive aspect of the object as it will erase it's 'history'.

Shallan soulcasting the goblet into blood is a good example.

If the goblet were poorly cared for and had a few chips in it or something, it would be possible to Forge it so that it was well cared for.

By soulcasting it into blood, Shallan removed the history of the goblet.

If Shallan had re-soulcast the blood into a goblet, it would have no history, so a Forger wouldn't be able to change it's appearance to be better of worse cared for.

 

I have no idea how this affects aluminum's investiture weirdness.

[Yata]

Sorry Eagleoftheforestpath but the books sugest that are exactly the opposite:
Shai describes pretty well what the Forgery do in Realmatic and She change the Spiritual Aspect of the object.

The Soulcast are quite vague and can be as you says but I find it unlikely.

 

Example: Shai change how a table was made (or more simply its History). She changes the links between the Spiritual Object and his creator or other "factor" of his history. Probably the Cognitive Aspect find them a little weird and the Forgery may last forever or a moment as the Cognitive make resistence to the Spiritual Change.

 

For the SoulCasting (but here we have not sure explaination) you "paid" an Object with Investiture to change and you have to overcome his resistence. But its Hystory remain the same. "I was a Rock and after Thousand of Year I become Blood" there isn't any hystory change, the object know what was before, but just he is something else now.
In the Soulcasting I suppose that in the Spiritual Realm only a few link are added by the magic, the link to the new Matter of the object.

[Landis963]

Sorry Eagleoftheforestpath but the books sugest that are exactly the opposite:

Shai describes pretty well what the Forgery do in Realmatic and She change the Spiritual Aspect of the object.

The Soulcast are quite vague and can be as you says but I find it unlikely.

 

Example: Shai change how a table was made (or more simply its History). She changes the links between the Spiritual Object and his creator or other "factor" of his history. Probably the Cognitive Aspect find them a little weird and the Forgery may last forever or a moment as the Cognitive make resistence to the Spiritual Change.

 

For the SoulCasting (but here we have not sure explaination) you "paid" an Object with Investiture to change and you have to overcome his resistence. But its Hystory remain the same. "I was a Rock and after Thousand of Year I become Blood" there isn't any hystory change, the object know what was before, but just he is something else now.

In the Soulcasting I suppose that in the Spiritual Realm only a few link are added by the magic, the link to the new Matter of the object.

 

This sounds like exactly the sort of question to go on the big list.  "How exactly do Forgery and Soulcasting differ, Realmatically?"

[Moogle]

Forgery changes the Physical by changing the cognitive, which may have an effect on the Spritual.

 

Sorry, we have a WoB which sort of says Forgery is the most Spiritual magic we've seen:

Question

The magic in The Emperor's Soul, is that the only magic you've written that there is a Spiritual part to it in your magic trio?

Brandon

Umm... All of them have some little dabbling in it, it is the most related to the Spiritual Realm-- Of the ones I have shown, certainly it is the most related.

(source)

 

The Spiritual holds your ties to locations, places, things - your history:

However, your age is part of your Connection to places, people, and times. Your soul "knows" things, like where you were born, what investiture you are aligned with, and--yes--how old you are.

(source)

 

By my best guess, Forgery alters your history, fooling your soul. So, like with Feruchemy, your soul exerts a pressure to make things "right" as it sees them and alters the other Realms to match. (See the source for the WoB above for far more detail on how the Spiritual does this.)

 

We even explicitly see in TES that Gaotona talks about "time" marks on her stamps:

“So this symbol,” Gaotona said, pointing at one of her sketches of the greater stamps she would soon carve, “is a time notation, indicating a moment specifically . . . seven years ago?”

 

To summarize my previous speculation on the matter, your Spiritweb is a bunch of connections to things. Forgery just moves these connections around - for example, your soul might have a connection to someone, indicating you met them ten years prior. You might be able to alter that connection to make you think that you just met them yesterday, or completely sever the connection and make the target think you never met.

 

I agree that there's probably a big Cognitive component due to the need for plausibility with the magic. If you alter the soul too much, the Cognitive realizes there's something wrong and will reject the stamp. But this is very speculative, and it may just be that you cannot alter connections TOO heavily in the Spiritual.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Moogle

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

 

Sorry, we have a WoB which sort of says Forgery is the most Spiritual magic we've seen:

 

The Spiritual holds your ties to locations, places, things - your history:

 

 

Oh bother! Missed that one.

 

However, note that Brandon says 'most related' to the Spiritual realm, not that Forgery acts directly on the Spiritual realm. 

(Just yanking you chain here  )

 

It just always seemed to me that Forgery acts by changing an object's perception of itself, which is cognitive.

That has as a major side-effect that you add or remove Spiritual connections.

I wasn't claiming that there isn't any Spiritual involvement in Forgery, just that I always felt that it actively works more on the cognitive.