Theory: Feruchemy & Old Magic

[Windrunner]

Okay, this is a really simple little theory, but I noticed an interesting magic system connection. I think that zinc Feruchemy and Taravangian's curse and boon from the Old Magic work in the same way. They are described very similarly from what we've seen from Mistborn and WoR readings. Bolding is mine

 

Sazed paused for a moment, trying to decipher the comment. His thoughts moved as if through a thick, turgid soup, and it took him a moment to understand what Clubs had said.

 

They're gone. Straff's troops. They've withdrawn. He coughed quietly before replying. "Did he ever respond to any of Lord Penrod's messages?"

 

"No," Clubs said. "But he did execute the last messenger."

 

Well, that isn't a very good sign, Sazed thought slowly. Of course, there hadn't been very many good signs over the last few days. The city was on the edge of starvation, and their brief respite of warmth was over. It would snow this evening, if Sazed guessed right. That made him feel even more guilty to be sitting in the kitchen nook, beside a warm hearth, sipping broth as his metalminds sapped his strength, health, senses, and power of thought. He had rarely tried to fill so many at once.

 

"You don't look so good," Clubs noted, sitting.

 

Sazed blinked, thinking through the comment. "My . . . goldmind," he said slowly. "It draws my health, storing it up." He glanced at his bowl of broth. "I must eat to maintain my strength," he said, mentally preparing himself to take a sip.

 

It was an odd process. His thoughts moved so slowly that it took him a moment to decide to eat.

 

He did not feel stupid, but he rarely did. Only on the worst of days did he recognize the difference, at least immediately. Days when his mind was thick like tar and he felt like a prisoner in his own mind; aware that something was profoundly wrong.[/size]

So, this is a pretty clear parallel in my opinion that shows that the slowness of their minds is very similar, and I'd be willing to be the reverse is true as well. While these are clearly different magic systems from different sources, I think this is likely one example of different magics doing things in the same way.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I don't think so.  Sazed just gets mental speed, not improved abilities at mathematics - and he's aware of even small changes when tapping/storing.  On good days Tanavast isn't thinking faster, he's thinking better.

[Leuthie]

I think the parallel you're drawing comes about because both books were written by the same author, and both selections describe similar feelings.

[Kurkistan]

I'll have to agree with Phantom that Sazed's use of zincminds results in a quantitative difference in how fast his thoughts are, while Taravangian's changed intelligence seems very much qualitative.

[Senor Feesh]

By the way Leuthie, you'll have to forgive the temporary lack of quote but Sanderson has stated that magic systems in the Cosmere will have similarities. The explicit example was lightweaving, in that any illusion magic would work in a similar fashion, but the quote implied other parallels.

That said, increased speed of thought can certainly help with math problems, but I have not read the WoR excerpts yet, and don't plan to before the book release, so my input in this thread is probably over

[Leuthie]

Totally understand the relationships between magic systems. After all, they all have the same source and are different ways of accessing the same power.

I was commenting on the evidence provided. Its coincidence; the result of the same author describing similar feelings in two different novels. As opposed to a planned nod to some Cosmeric parallel between two magic systems.

[Pechvarry]

I haven't read anything that contradicts the OP, though.

 

It really seems like The Old Magic is end-neutral, like feruchemy.  As for Taravangian, it's a pretty neat parallel.  It seems mostly a difference of dimension.  Take, for example, Pewter.  Allomantically, it makes you stronger/faster/more agile/better healer.  Feruchemically, it just makes you stronger.  So Allomantic pewter does the same stuff as Feruchemical pewter, but it also does other things.

 

Similarly, Sazed gains/loses mental speed, while Taravangian gains/loses complete mental faculties.  

 

Worth noting: Taravangian need not be a product of The Old Magic (unless i missed something.  I haven't read the WoR transcriptions).

[Kurkistan]

Taravangian's IQ-flux is a product of the Old Magic, we had that from WoB more than a year ago, I think.

[king of nowhere]

I don't know, the description about thoughts being slower and having to focus on them may as well apply to being drunk. I doubt being drunk is related to zinc feruchemy (although it would be nice if we got a way to get back all the mental power we lose during drunkennes) or the old magic.

On the other hand, all magic systems in the cosmere are vaguely related, so no surprise if there are some similarities

[Isomere]

There are remarkable similarities between feruchemy zinc and taravangian's mental acuity. I had never made that parallel before and think it's a very nice catch. There are also differences as people have noted. I see the same type of parallel with allomancy iron vs windrunner basic lashings.

 

Personally I am hoping for this overarching theme: The same Power of Creation being used by different Shards to perform similar tasks but with slightly different rules. 

[Galavantes]

I've never been certain that Zinc actually works that way. It seems to be the general idea that it simply speeds up thoughts. As in tapping zinc allows more calculations per second, but doesn't actually allow you to figure out a problem that you wouldn't be able to figure out normally. 

Are we entirely certain that is how it works? Or is that simply something that has been generally assumed? Do we have any WOB on that?

 

After all we have no scenes of anyone actually tapping it. Only storing it. It seems that it can be difficult to tell the difference between reduced speed of thought and reduced capacity.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

After all we have no scenes of anyone actually tapping it. Only storing it. It seems that it can be difficult to tell the difference between reduced speed of thought and reduced capacity.

We've seen sazed tapping zinc.  He does it in his fight with Marsh.

[Galavantes]

Ah my mistake. I just reread that scene. Still not very much information there however. All we saw him do with it was determine the trajectory of a flying object. Still something that could be done with either interpretation of the power.

[Senor Feesh]

As far as mental speed towards figuring something out which you wouldn't normally be able to do:

 

Some problems do benefit from more time spent on them. Whilst I allow that there are some things which are possibly excluded, I would posit that most mental problems can eventually be solved by working at the problem for long enough. Plenty of times I've given up on a problem because it would take me to long to work through, and I don't care enough to spend the time. Increasing your mental speed would reduce the time needed, making it more likely that you'll work the problem to solution.

[Nepene]

As far as mental speed towards figuring something out which you wouldn't normally be able to do:

 

Some problems do benefit from more time spent on them. Whilst I allow that there are some things which are possibly excluded, I would posit that most mental problems can eventually be solved by working at the problem for long enough. Plenty of times I've given up on a problem because it would take me to long to work through, and I don't care enough to spend the time. Increasing your mental speed would reduce the time needed, making it more likely that you'll work the problem to solution.

 

Enhanced mental speed allows you to weight the possible options better and find a solution. For a lot of problems to find the best solution you don't just need speed, you need a good memory of the facts, the ability to weight the options appropriately, and appropriate tools to solve the problem. Most of the more difficult problems we face in life are social ones and increased mental speed won't necessarily give you a good option.

 

That would be very relevant to Taravangian as most of the problems he will face are complex political and social ones which can't be worked through easily.

 

Sazed in contrast used his mental speed to solve the relatively simple problems of combat- if someone is punching you it's obvious that the best choice is to avoid their fist.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

If he's just slower on bad days, no reason he can't make important decisions - he'd just have to spend a lot more time deliberating on them

[Senor Feesh]

If he's just slower on bad days, no reason he can't make important decisions - he'd just have to spend a lot more time deliberating on them

 

But how much time would he need? Maybe more than he's able/willing to commit.

[Kurkistan]

Considering that he spends some of his bad days locked in a room without anyone being allowed to even talk to him, let alone being able to make decisions, I would say that he'd be willing to commit the time if his thoughts were just slowed down.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Considering that he spends some of his bad days locked in a room without anyone being allowed to even talk to him, let alone being able to make decisions, I would say that he'd be willing to commit the time if his thoughts were just slowed down.

Also, his ability to judge his own mental state is impaired - he always feels the same except on *really* bad days. Zinc Feruchemy gives you bullet time, and it would be pretty easy to notice everything moving in slow motion on a 'good' day.

Incidentally, it's a myth that time slows down when you're afraid - you just record memories faster, so when you replay you've got more stuff to recall. The experiment that established that is super cool, though.

[Nepene]

If he's just slower on bad days, no reason he can't make important decisions - he'd just have to spend a lot more time deliberating on them

 

Being slower may mean he couldn't make important decisions. His memory (copper) would be incredibly important in making good decisions. If he was slower he couldn't judge the emotions on advisor's faces. He'd have more trouble connecting to people (duralumin) so he could get good advice as he would appear to be crazy and stupid, and he'd have more trouble appearing strong willed and imposing his will (aluminium).

[Kurkistan]

Being slower may mean he couldn't make important decisions. His memory (copper) would be incredibly important in making good decisions. If he was slower he couldn't judge the emotions on advisor's faces. He'd have more trouble connecting to people (duralumin) so he could get good advice as he would appear to be crazy and stupid, and he'd have more trouble appearing strong willed and imposing his will (aluminium).

 

Wait, why are we throwing all of these other Feruchemical attributes at Taravangian? The OP talked about Feruchemical zinc, while its opponents (I'd like to call us the Champions of Reasonable Interpretation) have been saying that it's Taravangian's IQ that fluctuates: nothing more, nothing less. Just to belabor this point, here's the relevant Q&A:

 

Source

TORTELLINI

This is a big one and I hadn't heard any of this before. A girl asked what was up with Taravangian, since it seemed a rough break between the tottering old man and the scheming mastermind that Szeth meets at the end.

BRANDON SANDERSON

The answer is quite surprising. Brandon said that Taravangian used the Old Magic, and that he wakes up each day with a different IQ. Sometimes he's a genius, sometimes he's an idiot. So what he does is he writes up math puzzles for himself in the evening, and if he cannot get a certain score in the morning the guards have orders to just take care of him and keep him away from important decisions for that day. That way he keeps his effect (personal speculation, it could be his curse, but also his boon if e.g. he asked for intelligence and only got it part-time) under control.

 

There you have it, "different IQ". I think Brandon's even said that it's his IQ that changes at some other time as well. It's his IQ. There is really no need for us to mess around with Feruchemical attributes until we get a rough approximation of what we think Taravangian's condition is.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Nepene]

Wait, why are we throwing all of these other Feruchemical attributes at Taravangian? The OP talked about Feruchemical zinc, while its opponents (I'd like to call us the Champions of Reasonable Interpretation) have been saying that it's Taravangian's IQ that fluctuates: nothing more, nothing less. Just to belabor this point, here's the relevant Q&A:

 

Source

 

There you have it, "different IQ". I think Brandon's even said that it's his IQ that changes at some other time as well. It's his IQ. There is really no need for us to mess around with Feruchemical attributes until we get a rough approximation of what we think Taravangian's condition is.

 

The discussion was seperate from that issue.

 

If he's just slower on bad days, no reason he can't make important decisions - he'd just have to spend a lot more time deliberating on them

 

He was arguing that slow mental speed didn't impede decision making. I was arguing other attributes that we know are seperate from mental speed are also important in making decisions, and that they'd be impeded by slow thoughts and so he probably shouldn't be making decisions.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Nepene

[Windrunner]

Wait, why are we throwing all of these other Feruchemical attributes at Taravangian? The OP talked about Feruchemical zinc, while its opponents (I'd like to call us the Champions of Reasonable Interpretation) have been saying that it's Taravangian's IQ that fluctuates: nothing more, nothing less. Just to belabor this point, here's the relevant Q&A:

I'm fine with you disagreeing, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't act like I'm being unreasonable in my belief here. While you didn't say so in so many words, I think you certainly insinuated it with your, "Champions of Reasonable Interpretation," comment. I'm a tad tired at the moment, so maybe I'm overreacting, but there really wasn't any need for that, even in jest. Thanks.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm fine with you disagreeing, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't act like I'm being unreasonable in my belief here. While you didn't say so in so many words, I think you certainly insinuated it with your, "Champions of Reasonable Interpretation," comment. I'm a tad tired at the moment, so maybe I'm overreacting, but there really wasn't any need for that, even in jest. Thanks.

Yeah, he doesn't need to be a Jerkistan.

[Kurkistan]

@Nepene

 

So you just threw in Feruchemical parallels as a side note? Okay, I can see that, I suppose. You really didn't need to make the direct connection, though, as (though perhaps I'm just slow here) I think that just muddies the issue. Saying "his thoughts going more slowly makes him appear stupid and hampers his ability to rule and interact" can stand fine on its own, and is a valid point.

 

Still, though, I'm sure that slow!Taravangian could still just chill in his quarters (very slowly) planning and plotting by his lonesome or with a group of trusted advisers, if all that really suffered from his condition was appearances.

 

@Windrunner & Phantom

 

Jerkistan? Really?  Like I haven't heard that one before (actually, I haven't. Points for originality, at the very least).

 

I do think you may be overreacting a tad, Windrunner, as I am normally at least mildly tongue-in-cheek whenever I refer to myself as a "Champion"of anything. Looking over my post again, though, I admit that I was slightly harsher than I ought to have been, as I was experiencing some genuine frustration when I wrote that reply; some of which seems to have leaked through. I apologize for any incivility which resulted from that.