34 replies to this topic

[Thought]

Having not seen this yet discussed (forgive me if I've overlooked something), I would like to propose that each shard has its own unique color and that references to those colors in other books are hints at cosmere-wide events and trends. Based on this, I believe we can fairly well conclude that at one point Ruin, Preservation, and Domination once were part of a triumvirate.

As those two points seem quite divergent, allow me to ease into the matter more slowly. First, from Sazed's comments in the HoA bumps, we know that black is the color of Ruin, and white is the color of Preservation. Thus, we have two colors already established for us.

Second, there are (at least) two other important colors that have been identified in the books: Red and Gold. Namely, these form part of Miles' prophecy at the end of Alloy of Law. If we knew what shards Red and Gold represented, we would have a hint at what is coming to Scadrial.

Third, based on this, we know that Ruin and Preservation have a past relationship with "Red." The chapter 9 (Damnation) bump from tWoK's is as follows:

Ten People, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.

I am proposing that black and white here are referencing Ruin and Preservation (and likely Ati and Leras specifically). This gives us two other shardic actors, though. Red and the 10 people (the heralds, presumably, in place of Honor).

The three colors in the wall seem to be particularly important in the light of another quote, this time from the 11th chapter of tWoK's:

Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.

Unfortunately, the first part of this quote can be taken 3 different ways. Shards each seem to have a number associated with then. Honor, for example, is 10, while preservation is 16. So, "three of sixteen" could mean 3 individual members of the group of 16 shards, or it could mean Shard#3. Because the Three seem to be an important part of Rosharian mythology, I am inclined to assume that it is referring to three different individuals. As such, these three individuals seem likely to be the Black, White, and Red mentioned before.

Support for this comes in two different forms. First, The Letter states that Ati was once a good person, which one would hopefully want in a leader. This is a very brief description, admittedly, but we can better believe that Ati once ruled than, say, Rhyse.

The second support is in the first quote. Ten people are standing before a wall. Given the numerical significance, we can be fairly sure that these are the representation of Honor. Is honor standing in opposition to or in defense of the wall? Given the emphasis on knightly defense in tWoK's, it seems more likely that Honor is here on the defense, protecting the wall.

Further, if we take Black, White, and Red to be the 3 of 16 mentioned who once ruled, then it is likely that Honor would be honor-bound to them. Indeed, it is unlikely that Honor would have subverted them (though possible). Yet, we are told that "The Broken One" now rules. This could reference any of the shattered shards, but again, given that this is in tWoK's, it seems likely that it is referring to Honor.

So, then, it seems likely that Black and White (that is, Preservation/Leras and Ruin/Ati) once ruled (along with Red), with Honor as a sort of royal guard.

Who, then, is Red?

That answer, I believe, is in Elantris. The Derethi, whom are generally believed to be followers of a religion influenced by the existence of Skai/Dominion, wear a lot of red, and red seems to generally be a holy color for them. Thus, Skai/Domination appears to be the most likely contender for who Red represents.

If we plug this information in to the various quotes, that would mean that Domination, Ruin, and Preservation were a triumvirate that ruled at one point, with Honor as a sort of guard. If that is correct, perhaps then Odium has a grudge against the Triumvirate specifically? Honor would have been shattered first, as he was protecting the others, then he happened to attack Domination first, and will now turn his sights to Ruin and Preservation. That doesn't explain why he left Cultivation intact (if she is intact) while shattering Devotion, however.

Additionally, Miles' prophecy then means that we should expect to see Skai/Domination agents on Scadrial, eventually, along with "Gold"'s agents.

Who is gold?

There is currently no good answer, to my knowledge. It may be Honor (as that would fit with the people before the wall imagery), but I haven't seen anything in tWoK's that strongly suggests that Honor is linked to gold, and I haven't read Warbreaker yet. That would make sense, however: the remains of a former protector would have reason to continue to defend the remains of a former lord, yes?

The other shard that we have a hint of color at, that I am aware of, is Aona. Both blue and silver seem to be fairly common in Elantris, but, unfortunately, they don't seem to be as commonly present as Red, so that might just be random chance.

By any chance does anyone else know of a color related to a shard or hints about the cosmere that might be referencing shardic colors?

[ReaderAt2046]

I like the first part of your theory (that each Shard has its own color) a lot, but I think the Triumvirate inference is unsound for one simple reason: Parshendi and parshmen are known to have skin marbled in red, black and white. Therefore, it is immensely more probable that the "wall of red, black, and white" is referencing an assualting horde of parshmen/Parshendi.

I would venture to guess, by the way, that Devotion's color is either silver (because Elantrians turn silver) or gold (to fit the "Red and Gold" quote, since we know devotion and Dominion are complements).

Though this theory does seem to hit a snag with Endowment, who seems to be related to every color at once.

Also, I do not agree that "Shards each seem to have a number associated with then. Honor, for example, is 10, while preservation is 16." I think there is a different explanation for the numbers, given here: http://www.17thshard...-10-16-theorem/

Edited by ReaderAt2046, 27 July 2012 - 07:15 AM.

[Commander Spoonface]

Parts of your theory seem a little stretched, but overall it's a fascinating way of looking at things. I especially like "three of sixteen" part. This is one shiny, shiny, theory.

[Windrunner]

I would venture to guess, by the way, that Devotion's color is either silver (because Elantrians turn silver) or gold (to fit the "Red and Gold" quote, since we know devotion and Dominion are complements).

I really really don't think the red and gold thing has anything at all to do with Devotion and Dominion. There's just way more evidence, in my opinion, that links them to the people of the southern continent, who are confirmed to be of Ruin and Preservation. Brandon doesn't want to start mixing the Cosmere worlds too much at this point (3rd Mistborn trilogy is a much more likely candidate for this mixture).

Also we don't "know" anything about them being complements, its only my theory at this point, and not confirmed in any way shape or form.

[Commander Spoonface]

I really really don't think the red and gold thing has anything at all to do with Devotion and Dominion. There's just way more evidence, in my opinion, that links them to the people of the southern continent, who are confirmed to be of Ruin and Preservation. Brandon doesn't want to start mixing the Cosmere worlds too much at this point (3rd Mistborn trilogy is a much more likely candidate for this mixture).

Also we don't "know" anything about them being complements, its only my theory at this point, and not confirmed in any way shape or form.

This provoked an interesting thought: What if "red and gold" refer to Ruin and Preservation, or at least two strongly Ruin/Preservation aligned factions? Such as a predominantly Preservation oriented society that, with the release of Ruin by Vin, saw a sudden "Ruinic" group break off to form their own society.

Also, I realized that all my "theories" are actually unsubstantiated guesses...

[Thought]

@Windrunner, I wasn't aware that there was really any evidence, one way or the other, as to who the Red and Gold were. However, I do agree that it is unlikely that Sanderson will mix the Cosmere worlds too much. I'd expect that if I am correct in this, then Domination and Whoever will appear as a self-contained reference. That is, one wont need to have read the rest of Sanderson's books to enjoy it. The more I think about it, the more the southern scadrials don't really make much sense (no magic, except a few mistings, no supplies from the reshaping of the world, and no words of founding from sazed).

@Reader, my main objection there is that for the wall to be the Parsh, they'd really need to be the voidbringers to be significant enough, but that is problematic. For one, the Heralds told humanity that the voidbringers had been pushed out of the physical realm. The parsh would have been obvious evidence that that was a lie. Also, while the voidbringers are described as beings of fire and burned skin, the most that can really be said about the Parsh is that they have burned skin. There's nothing aflame about them, it seems. And, of course, the very fact that Jasnah thinks the two are one in the same in the first book of a 10ish book series is an indication that she hasn't completed her try-fail cycle yet.

Also, you are assuming that the ten people are in opposition to the wall, rather than in defense of it. Their weapons are indeed out, but they are just standing there. That is a fairly passive stance: they aren't attacking, charging, fighting, defying, etc the wall. They are just standing before it. Not necessarily even facing it, just before it. The wall, similarly, is... well, a wall. Those aren't known as very mobile things. So, of the two important images we have in the quote, both are passive. That isn't really what one would expect if the Heralds were facing the Parsh or the Voidbringers.

As for the numbers, I had mistakenly thought that was an established correlation. But your explanation is good (I hadn't thought about 10 in Warbreaker, yet).

Anywho, another interesting quote that may reference Ruin, Preservation, and Domination is from chapter 53 (Dunny):

He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!

This could potentially refer to those three: towers are for those who protect/preserve things, crowns are for those who rule/dominate things, and spears are for those who destory/ruin things. However, that said, it is probably more of a reference to Dalinar. Finding a list of glyphpairs is difficult, but since Dalinar's chapters have a tower and crown, I think those are his.

[zas678]

I think the Red and Gold is a little more literal than shard colors. It's possible that each shard has it's own color (Ruin's pool is black, Preservation's is white, and Devotion's is Blue). But I don't think that Miles was prophecying. I think he was just being obscure and subtle. Remember the cigar box that Wax found? The one that lead him to Mister Suit? The one that Miles wrote down all the train schedules for Mister Suit in? What color was it? Red and Gold. Here's what Brandon has to say about it:

ZAS678 (REDDIT.COM)
Is it significant that Miles said that the "men of gold and red" would come and rule? Is there a connection between this and the "gold and red" cigar box that Miles keeps The Suit's comings and goings on?

BRANDON SANDERSON (REDDIT.COM)
This is all very significant.

Source

[Thought]

I think the Red and Gold is a little more literal than shard colors.

You make a good point about Miles' statement not necessarily being prophecy. Given all the death statements in tWoK, I am still inclined to think it was, but there is certainly reasonable doubt on that point.

However, I'd suggest that you are presenting a false dichotomy there. "Literal" and "shard" colors don't have to be mutually exclusive. The Lord Ruler's clothing was white and black. Perhaps those were a bit fancier than a cigar box, and a bit less cryptic than a mysterious group of red and gold, but along those same lines regardless. However, he had chosen those colors (or so Sazed thought) to represent that he was the vicar of the gods of Scadrial. Of course, that wasn't actually true. He served both, inadvertently at times, but he never held Ruin's power, and only a sliver of Preservation's. He was largely a free agent who associated himself with those colors. Thus, while red and gold might not directly represent a shard, it still might be referencing those shards, in the same way that TLR's white and black clothes referenced shards.

[Commander Spoonface]

It is worth nothing that simply because White and Black are associated with Preservation and Ruin in the area of Scadrial we are familiar with, it does not mean that Red and Gold cannot also represent them in a different cultural setting on a different part of Scadrial.

[happyman]

I actually lean towards the colors having inherent meaning. Wasn't the ash black at the end because it was Ruin fueling its rapid growth? That seems pretty darn basic to me, and not remotely cultural.

[frozndevl]

I would say the ash at the end was black just because it was more intense.

[ReaderAt2046]

I actually lean towards the colors having inherent meaning. Wasn't the ash black at the end because it was Ruin fueling its rapid growth? That seems pretty darn basic to me, and not remotely cultural.

Sazed does say that Ashmount ash shouldn't have been solid black, that ordinary ash is more gray. And we do know that Preservation's mist is white and Ruin's is black.

[Commander Spoonface]

I actually lean towards the colors having inherent meaning. Wasn't the ash black at the end because it was Ruin fueling its rapid growth? That seems pretty darn basic to me, and not remotely cultural.

It's possible, however, that in areas with less direct, physical, examples or Ruin/Preservation's influence, other colors would become associated with them. After all, why is Preservation white and Ruin black? Because the Mists and WoA, things that might not be present in the South, are white, and Ruin's mist and ash he fuels are black, again something that might not have been observed in other areas. So while those colors might be intrinsically linked to Ruin/Preservation, Red and Gold might be linked to them elsewhere as a cultural artifact, not as an attribute of either Shard.

[happyman]

It's possible, however, that in areas with less direct, physical, examples or Ruin/Preservation's influence, other colors would become associated with them. After all, why is Preservation white and Ruin black? Because the Mists and WoA, things that might not be present in the South, are white, and Ruin's mist and ash he fuels are black, again something that might not have been observed in other areas. So while those colors might be intrinsically linked to Ruin/Preservation, Red and Gold might be linked to them elsewhere as a cultural artifact, not as an attribute of either Shard.

Possible, obviously. Brandon usually lets his cultures drift as they please.

On the other hand, it would seem that black=Ruin and white=Preservation is something that the Cosmere itself respects independent of people, making it (a) far more fundamental and less susceptible to change and (B ) much more likely to keep popping up in cultures because it is more fundamental, and would be repeatedly reinforced.

Edited by happyman, 02 August 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[Commander Spoonface]

Possible, obviously. Brandon usually lets his cultures drift as they please.

On the other hand, it would seem that black=Ruin and white=Preservation is something that the Cosmere itself respects independent of people, making it (a) far more fundamental and less susceptible to change and (B ) much more likely to keep popping up in cultures because it is more fundamental, and would be repeatedly reinforced.

Or, as I said earlier, red and gold could be linked to two factions or groups linked to Ruin and Preservation respectively. My point is that, because of this, it cannot be discounted that Red and Gold are simply another take on Ruin and Preservation, as opposed to two entirely new shards.

[Lantern13]

I said this better in a future post.

Edited by Lantern13, 06 August 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[Lightflame]

I think Endowment's colour would actually be white, as that's the original state of colours before they refract (unless I'm failing at science here). That way, Endowment would have one colour that is every colour.

[Windrunner]

Well, if what you're trying to do is assign each Shard a distinct hue, then white has already been taken by Preservation.

[Thought]

Also, the Tears of Edgli are used to make dyes, not to bleach things white. I'm not sure what color the flowers are, but it does strongly imply that they are a color. Personally, I favor yellow, but that is just because reading about the Tears make me think of sunflowers or daffodils. If the flowers have a color, one might well expect that color to be the Shard's color (again, if shard's have unique colors).

EDIT: Spoiler to follow, but I also realized that Sadeas' shardplate was red (though his banner's color is green), and his actions, while not as crazy as, say, the Citizen’s, still seem focused on dominating.

Edited by Thought, 02 August 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[LightReader]

I always assumed that the Tears of Edgli flowers came in multiple colors, like tulips. Each color flower could produce a different dye color, which is why Hallandren is so colorful.