Why is Hemalurgy different?

[Vortaan]

Hello all. Been away for awhile, and finally got a chance to reread every Cosmere book in a go. When I did, I noticed something odd. Hemalurgy seems to be the only magic system that does not have a genetic component. To break it down:

Allomancy: Straight genetic. You can either do it or you can't. Consuming Lerasium seems to rewrite not just spiritual DNA but actual DNA, since you are able to pass it along to your children.

Feruchemy: Same dice as Allomancy, but with added there is no way (currently) to gain Feruchemy besides Hemalurgy or being a Terrisperson.

Awakening: Awakening requires Breath, which seems to be a genetic endowment from all people on Nalthis. People on other Shardworlds either aren't born with Breath (and since no one else seems to notice they are being watched, I'm guessing this), or their Breath is way different from the people of Nalthis. Either way, seems odd.

AonDor: To be an Elantrin, it seems you have to have a specific lineage, living within a certain distance of Elantris. They comment on the fact that the priest (can't recall his name right now), is so far out of the norm for someone to be an Elantrin that it causes considerable comment.

Surgebinding: This is the other one that is kinda iffy. The only Surgebinders we know for sure are Shallan, Jasnah, Szeth, and Kaladin. Dalinar, Elkohar, Shallan's father, and Tien are all possible Surgebinders. I'm kind of assuming a genetic component here... but let's assume there is for now.

Now, looking at all these magic systems, I can only think of one thing Hemalurgy has that's different than them... and that's the intent of the Shard powering it. All these other magic systems are, presumbly, powered by more positive intent Shards. Devotion, Preservation, Endowment, etc etc... all relatively benign. However, Ruin is not only a destructive force, but apparently a malevolent one. It warps Ati from a fairly decent human being into the Ruin we encounter in Mistborn. Odium is apparently quite evil. Is it possible that those Shards with negative intents create magic systems that are not inborn into a populace, but have to be learned and feed off of more positive aspect Shards? This actually seems to fit in line with a more negative intent, as it leaves their own power largely untouched, whereas all these magic systems presumably lower the overall power available to a Shard that is powering them.

[Telcontar]

Hemalurgy seems to be the only magic system that does not have a genetic component.

Now that depens on how you define the genetic component. In your post you seem to be looking for any genetic component. The one I'd rather look for is the component that adapts your spiritweb to give you magical abilities.

In Allomancy and Feruchemy it is indeed genetic. Brandon has told us so.

He talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In l lot of his systems people are trough some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris trough the Shaod, In mistborn it's genetic, in tWoK it depends on what some one has done.

Awakening: Awakening requires Breath, which seems to be a genetic endowment from all people on Nalthis. People on other Shardworlds either aren't born with Breath (and since no one else seems to notice they are being watched, I'm guessing this), or their Breath is way different from the people of Nalthis. Either way, seems odd.

I disagree with BioChroma being genetic. Breath is just given to anyone as a gift. But you can give it away if you want to. And you can only give it away if you want to. BS has not answered yet the question whether two drabs would make a drab child but I don't think that will be the case. On the other hand I don't believe that someone with the third heightening for example would give part of his Breaths to his child.

Someone is born and endowed with one Breath. So, no genetic component.

AonDor: To be an Elantrin, it seems you have to have a specific lineage, living within a certain distance of Elantris. They comment on the fact that the priest (can't recall his name right now), is so far out of the norm for someone to be an Elantrian that it causes considerable comment.

The thing about AonDor is that it is bound to the land. Every Aon needs the Aon Aon to begin with, which represents the land. The Shaod only strikes within these borders.

Then, we presume that the Shaod comes upon those who follow the intent of Devotion (being Aona's Shard). It would be that condition that makes the Shaod strike and not that you're of Arelon, Duladel or Teod. IIRC those from Duladel or Teod who became Elantrian had to be in Arelon for the Shaod to strike.

The following question is, of course, why doesn't the Shaod work on Fjordish etc.?

I can only presume that it would work on those as well, if they would follow the intent of Devotion and be in Arelon. But they don't follow the intent. Fjordish people in Kae are mostly priests who rather follow the intent of Dominion. Other believers in the Fjordish god do as well.

So there again, I question the genetic component in AonDor.

Surgebinding: This is the other one that is kinda iffy. The only Surgebinders we know for sure are Shallan, Jasnah, Szeth, and Kaladin. Dalinar, Elkohar, Shallan's father, and Tien are all possible Surgebinders. I'm kind of assuming a genetic component here... but let's assume there is for now.

You say yourself that you only assume that there is a genetic component in Surgebinding. I've seen others that have even tried to prove that idea, but so far noone has convinced me. First of all because of the quote above. Secondly, you can lose your powers by acting in a dishonorable way, Syl implied that much. If it was genetic, it would be definite, wouldn't it? Allomancers and Feruchemist can only lose their powers if they are stolen hemalurgically. But Hemalurgy rips part of your spiritweb apart.

I Surgebinding appears to show up in certain families (only Kholin for now btw) that's only because acting honorably is as much a matter of education as of character.

So what I say is: Hemalurgy is not more different than any other magic system. Feel free to define what you mean exactly by genetic component and prove the existence of those components in the respective systems though

[CrazyRioter]

I've said about surgebinding, that it has a genetic component only insofar as personality is partially genetically inherited (and also derived from how you were raised as Telcontar noted)

Also the Shaod never takes anybody but those of Arlish descent, not even Jindoese people, who may well follow Devoton's intent. So it requires both genetics and the proper actions, and we are surmising on the actions (although it's a very plausible theory).

[Triasmus]

CHAOS (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadrial?

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)

To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codes, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.

It's genetic in that one has to be descended from the first Scadrial people .

EDIT: I meant to have "...to get stolen from" at the end.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lantern13

[Telcontar]

It's genetic in that one has to be descended from the first Scadrial people .

No it's not. The way I understand that quote is that you need some Allomancer or Feruchemist from whom you can steal the power. Hemalurgy only requires knowledge of the metal needed and the right point to spike people. The only genetic component in Hemalurgy is the 'genes' you steal from other people.

Edit: @Lantern, yeah I'd thought that you had forgotten something

Edited May 30, 2012 by Telcontar

[Triasmus]

It's genetic in that one has to be descended from the first Scadrial people .

EDIT: I meant to have "...to get stolen from" at the end.

I fixed it

[spinner]

By my own guesses, Hemalurgy would work differently along different binding points. It is already an established fact that Hemalurgy can steal traits other than Allomancy and Feruchemy, so, that leaves us with the potential that it can steal any part of the "Spirit Web."

[Zas678]

Here's a little known tidbid about Awakening:

ZAS

After several more signings, I asked my other question. "Do people in the Comsere, besides Nalthis, have Breaths?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"No." He then signed a person's books, then said "To elaborate a little more, that's not to say they don't have a life force, because they do. But if someone not from Nalthis were to suddenly gain the ability to become an Awakener, they could not use what they have to Awaken something. That's not to say that they can't receive breaths though."

Source

[Telcontar]

Awakening requires Breath. The Breath that's endowed on people born on Nalthis. People from other worlds can receive Breath.

The way I understand it, those would then be able to Awaken as well

There has been a thread where the relationship between a Shard, his planet and the magic system was discussed. I didn't follow it then, but I remember that there was one.

If a pregnant woman comes to Nalthis from another world and gives birth to her child on Nalthis, would the child get a Breath?

[Arondell]

I've said about surgebinding, that it has a genetic component only insofar as personality is partially genetically inherited (and also derived from how you were raised as Telcontar noted)

I don't have a reference but I was sure that Brandon was reported to have said that unlike the other magic systems the stormlight one was based on behavior not genetics.

[Commander Spoonface]

I don't see a problem here. Hemalurgy literally takes some sDNA of an Allomancer or a Feruchemist and staples it on to another person. That is directly involved with genetics. The same principle applies to human attribute spikes. Without the genetic information in a person's body, Hemalurgy is useless. You can't use Hemalurgy on rock...

But can you use it on animals? Hmmm....

[spinner]

I would think you can't use it on animals with the whole "Animals don't have spirits" argument. Brandon is mormon, right?

[Windrunner]

Well it depends how you define "work". Mistwraiths are now simple animals, regardless of the fact that their ancestors had once been human and it works on them. So it's clear that animals can receive spikes, but not if spikes can be made from them. This is what Brandon has had to say on the subject, although it's not extensive at all.

VEGASDEV (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Would Hemalurgy work on animals?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Yes, it would.

Source

This does seem to imply that they can make spikes to, as he doesn't apply qualifiers here. I'm not sure how much it has to do with a soul, as it has to do with a spiritual aspect, which is something everything in the Cosmere has. All matters of that realm are murky at this time, so all we can do is speculate.

[Commander Spoonface]

I'm betting that, at some point, somebody ends up giving cats allomancy and spiking their food with metals...

Cat Inquisitors are totally possible. That's awesome.

[Triasmus]

It's genetic in that one has to be descended from the first Scadrial people .

EDIT: I meant to have "...to get stolen from" at the end.

Well it depends how you define "work". Mistwraiths are now simple animals, regardless of the fact that their ancestors had once been human and it works on them. So it's clear that animals can receive spikes, but not if spikes can be made from them. This is what Brandon has had to say on the subject, although it's not extensive at all.

VEGASDEV (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Would Hemalurgy work on animals?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Yes, it would.

This does seem to imply that they can make spikes to, as he doesn't apply qualifiers here. I'm not sure how much it has to do with a soul, as it has to do with a spiritual aspect, which is something everything in the Cosmere has. All matters of that realm are murky at this time, so all we can do is speculate.

From how Brandon uses the phrase "using hemalurgy", I kind of have a feeling that it's getting spiked, not getting robbed. An inquisitor is a hemalurgist because of all their spikes, and then from the quote I posted

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)

To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codes, then take the power from them.

To use hemalurgy, one must take power/attributes from somebody with the correct codes first.

In the end, I'm almost positive that BS means that animals can get given things, not that things can get stolen from them. I did have a thought though when I first posted the quote... maybe if you're given a spike, that will then count as having the right codes so that other things can get taken (I don't think that's very plausible though ).

[happyman]

I would think you can't use it on animals with the whole "Animals don't have spirits" argument. Brandon is mormon, right?

I haven't posted for ages, but I couldn't let this one pass. Mormon's as a whole have believed, and most still currently believe, that animals totally have spirits. In fact, some very prominent Mormons (Brigham Young, for instance) even claimed that plants had souls, as well as the planet Earth itself. So what we can infer from Brandon's beliefs would be that he has no problem with animal Hemalurgy in religious principle in the real world. Except, of course, that he doesn't believe Hemalurgy is possible in the real world, which kinda exposes the other problem with this line of reasoning...

Edited June 1, 2012 by happyman

[Commander Spoonface]

I don't think that BS's personal religious beliefs have or will influence his magic systems.

</allreligiousdiscussioninthisthread>

[spinner]

It seems strange that they wouldn't influence his magic systems. You make things along the lines of what things are plausible to you. You may make the worlds however you want them, for the story, but that is still affected by your beliefs, right?

Either way, sorry that was I was wrong about the animals and spirit things, I assumed that the followed the standard Christian thoughts on it, my mistake.

[Sunblesser]

It seems strange that they wouldn't influence his magic systems. You make things along the lines of what things are plausible to you. You may make the worlds however you want them, for the story, but that is still affected by your beliefs, right?

Either way, sorry that was I was wrong about the animals and spirit things, I assumed that the followed the standard Christian thoughts on it, my mistake.

ehhh, that's the problem with generalizations. christianity has thousands of sects, each one with variations in their beliefs.

but Commander Spoonface is right [/endreligiousdiscussion]

[Zas678]

Here's a reference that leads me to believe that everything would have a spiritual sense:

ZAS678

What is the X in Aon Mea? Is it one of the Shard-pools?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Afraid not. Aon Mea references the expanded region within which the "Elantris Effect" will create Elantrians. The X is fertile valley with a high density of life, a place with a lot of cognitive activity. (Cognitive as defined by Realmatic Theory includes the 'thoughts' of all things that exist, not just human beings. The more complex the life form, the stronger its presence on the Cognitive Realm.)

Source

If everything physical has a cognitive presence, it makes sense that everything would have a spiritual presence as well in the Spiritual Realm. At least everything living.

If a pregnant woman comes to Nalthis from another world and gives birth to her child on Nalthis, would the child get a Breath?

Hmm... I don't think so. But if she came with a population, then I bet her grandkids (or possibly great grandkids) might.

It seems that "spiritual radiation" of a shard takes a while to kick in. The biggest example (our only one really) is Sel.

BRANDON SANDERSON

History and Use

All Aons exist independent of humankind, their symbols inherently tied to their meaning, but few have distinct origin stories explaining how the Aon was first discovered. Some modern scholars scoff at such tales, but Aon Ehe's origin myth is well known among the common people and believed by most.

The story tells of the first princess of Arelon. This was some years after the founding of Arelon following the migration of the Aonic people from other lands. Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty. While some people assumed it haunted, Proud King Rhashm (later renamed Raoshem) determined to conquer the fears of his people and set up a kingdom centered on Elantris.

The transformation of the first Elantrians happened beginning several decades later. Princess Elashe—the first of Raoshem's line to be chosen as an Elantrian—claimed to have seen the pattern of this Aon inscribed on a coal in her hearth the day after she underwent the transformation. Whether or not this story is true, a coal or rock written with Aon Ehe on it is considered good luck and a ward against winter spirits. (Though this kind of superstition is frowned upon by the Korathi priests.)

FOOTNOTE

It is unclear if "other lands" is on planet(Sel), or from somewhere else.

Source

Now I personally think that "other lands" means that they came from another planet. The reason for the several decade gap is that it was taking a long time for the population to change from "whatever we used to be" to "Elantrians". Is it spiritual? Is it cognitive? I'm not sure. But my guess is that it takes a while for it to happen. And they could've had it not happen at all. Look at the Jindo on the trade routes in Arelon. They're in the "Elantris Effect" area that should turn them into Elantrians, but because they don't consider themselves Elantrians, they never end up becomes Elantrians.

But that's assuming that the "spiritual radiation" works the same way on all the planets.

[Zas678]

Here's a reference that leads me to believe that everything would have a spiritual sense:

ZAS678

What is the X in Aon Mea? Is it one of the Shard-pools?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Afraid not. Aon Mea references the expanded region within which the "Elantris Effect" will create Elantrians. The X is fertile valley with a high density of life, a place with a lot of cognitive activity. (Cognitive as defined by Realmatic Theory includes the 'thoughts' of all things that exist, not just human beings. The more complex the life form, the stronger its presence on the Cognitive Realm.)

Source

If everything physical has a cognitive presence, it makes sense that everything would have a spiritual presence as well in the Spiritual Realm. At least everything living.

If a pregnant woman comes to Nalthis from another world and gives birth to her child on Nalthis, would the child get a Breath?

Hmm... I don't think so. But if she came with a population, then I bet her grandkids (or possibly great grandkids) might.

It seems that "spiritual radiation" of a shard takes a while to kick in. The biggest example (our only one really) is Sel.

BRANDON SANDERSON

History and Use

All Aons exist independent of humankind, their symbols inherently tied to their meaning, but few have distinct origin stories explaining how the Aon was first discovered. Some modern scholars scoff at such tales, but Aon Ehe's origin myth is well known among the common people and believed by most.

The story tells of the first princess of Arelon. This was some years after the founding of Arelon following the migration of the Aonic people from other lands. Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty. While some people assumed it haunted, Proud King Rhashm (later renamed Raoshem) determined to conquer the fears of his people and set up a kingdom centered on Elantris.

The transformation of the first Elantrians happened beginning several decades later. Princess Elashe—the first of Raoshem's line to be chosen as an Elantrian—claimed to have seen the pattern of this Aon inscribed on a coal in her hearth the day after she underwent the transformation. Whether or not this story is true, a coal or rock written with Aon Ehe on it is considered good luck and a ward against winter spirits. (Though this kind of superstition is frowned upon by the Korathi priests.)

FOOTNOTE

It is unclear if "other lands" is on planet(Sel), or from somewhere else.

Source

Now I personally think that "other lands" means that they came from another planet. The reason for the several decade gap is that it was taking a long time for the population to change from "whatever we used to be" to "Elantrians". Is it spiritual? Is it cognitive? I'm not sure. But my guess is that it takes a while for it to happen. And they could've had it not happen at all. Look at the Jindo on the trade routes in Arelon. They're in the "Elantris Effect" area that should turn them into Elantrians, but because they don't consider themselves Elantrians, they never end up becomes Elantrians.

But that's assuming that the "spiritual radiation" works the same way on all the planets.

So in short, my guess would be no. Their kid wouldn't have Breath. But his kids might.

[discipleofhoid]

Now I personally think that "other lands" means that they came from another planet. The reason for the several decade gap is that it was taking a long time for the population to change from "whatever we used to be" to "Elantrians". Is it spiritual? Is it cognitive? I'm not sure. But my guess is that it takes a while for it to happen. And they could've had it not happen at all. Look at the Jindo on the trade routes in Arelon. They're in the "Elantris Effect" area that should turn them into Elantrians, but because they don't consider themselves Elantrians, they never end up becomes Elantrians.

But that's assuming that the "spiritual radiation" works the same way on all the planets.

So in short, my guess would be no. Their kid wouldn't have Breath. But his kids might.

I had always(well since we found out that the Elantrian shard was devotion) assumed that the reason that it was the second generation that could become Elantrians was because they were the first ones that were truly devoted to the land represented in the Aons. Having been born and raised there they saw Arelon not just as home but as their land.

[Commander Spoonface]

Now I personally think that "other lands" means that they came from another planet.

To be fair, the same principle of Shardic radiation works when centered around Arelon, since that area of Devotion's power appears to be anchored there. Essentially, people from anywhere (other planets/areas of Sel) will be affected in the same way.