Theory: Szeth was a Stone Shaman

[Telcontar]

This is my turn for a pretty baseless theory. Szeth is the most interesting character of tWoK to me, but we won't get his book for at least two or three years from now. So let's speculate about his past.

My theory is that he has been a Stone Shaman or a Stone Shaman's apprentice.

The first clue. All we know about his past is that Szeth has been a very respected member of his society.

Was Vallano, Szeth's grandfather, also a Truthless? And if not, what did he do to disgrace the Shin?

BS: No, Vallano was not Truthless.

Szeth was a very respected member of his society, once. There are clues to what happened in his story, but you won't hear it in full until he gets his book. (Which will include his flashbacks.

In the Shin society, it is farmers who are most respected. Farmers and probably Stone Shamans as well. Stone Shamanism seems to be a sort of Shin religion. Stone is sacred to the Shin, as is Stormlight. It is my guess that Stone Shamans are the equivalent of Vorin ardents to the Shin.

So I suppose that Stone Shamans are also very respected members of the Shin society. There might be other sort of people with very respected positions, but I'll work with what we have.

So, farmer or Stone Shaman?

Szeth is trained in kammar, the martial art meant as a less deadly form of fighting, focused on grabbing enemies and using their weight against them, immobilizing them. (paperback pg.893) The question is, why should Szeth be trained in kammar?

A fighter can have two sorts of functions. Agressing or defending. But the Shin are a docile and harmless people in general. There is multiple references to that in the book. (paperback pg.10 for ex.) I would say that if Shin are trained in a martial art, it would be for the purpose of defending others. In other societies that is generally the duty of guards or (in our modern times) of the police.

Meanwhile we need to consider that whoever picks up a weapon in Shinovar has to become a warrior, the lowliest of men in Shin society. (paperback pg. 537) Which is no option for Szeth who was a respected member of his society.

I can't see why farmers should be trained in kammar. So this is my first clue for Szeth being a former Stone Shaman.

My second clue is his knowledge. He has knowledge of the Lashings, to begin with. He refers himself to what he is doing as Surgebinding (paperback pg. 210) and sees himself as a Windrunner. Szeth has elaborate speach, like a lighteyes (pg. 209).

Knowledge of Surgebinding, however, has been lost and faded to legends about the KR in the rest of Roshar. Jasnah seems to know something about Soulcasting, but we don't know how much else she knows. And she has probably gone through all the most important libraries to study Soulcasting. So if there is someone who should know about Surgebinding, it's her. However, knowledge of Surgebinding is not common, and certainly not of the Lashings, which is appearently how the KR themselves referred to them.

My guess is that the Shin have somehow preserved the knowledge from the ancient time. Could be, as has been theorized because of Urithiru being in Shinovar. How exactly is irrelevant for now.

But Shinovar is a nice place to preserve knowledge, secluded behind their mountains, protected from Highstorms and keeping to themselves.

I speculate that Stone Shamans, like ardents, are scholars as well, preserving ancient knowledge.

My third clue about Szeth having been a Stone Shaman is his Surgebinding.

I will exclude the theory that Szeth gains his powers from his Blade for the sake of my speculation. We've already seen that Szeth has knowledge about what he's doing. In my opinion he also is way too good in Surgebinding to be an autodidact. It took Kaladin a very long time to realize he has powers, and still a long time, to be able to use them on purpose. And for now he is a long way from discovering everything about how to use them.

But if Szeth is trained, he has to be trained by someone. That's where the Stone Shamans enter the stage. Again.

We know that Stone Shamans must be pretty powerful.

[szeth] was required to carry the Blade until his death, after which Shin Stone Shamans would recover it from whomever had killed him.

In order to get back a Blade, you have to kill the carrier. Assuming that one wouldn't be willing to give it up. Of course, if it's an Honorblade, it wouldn't disappear when dropped (see Taln's Blade in the epilogue), which would make it possible to just steal it. But even then, I'd presume, the Blade would be very very heavily guarded by its owner. So Stone Shamans must have a way to get the Blade back.

Szeth was able to defeat a whole room of guards, two full Shardbearers and a king with a Shardblade largely without the help of his Blade, only using his Lashings and kammar. Let's imagine there's three of those, Stones Shamans, kammar-masters and Surgebinders. They should be able to kick even the best protected asses.

If Stone Shamans are Surgebinders, they have to gain their powers. As to that, I only say that their purpose is protection, which would allow them to bind an Honorspren, becoming Surgebinders with the first powerset, the Lashings. I'm aware that this is very speculative.

That's my third clue, Szeth knows Surgebinding, because Stone Shamans have trained him in it.

The fourth clue. Remember this quote:

BS

Szeth was perceived as betraying his people in a fundamental way, and you will learn more about that when his book comes along.

How do you betray a whole people in a fundamental way? It is difficult to imagine someone betraying his people in a fundamental way, being only a simple man, without any special position. Of course you can offend a people, by acting against their most important values. Like not to kill. But that's not really betraying your people.

It's not by picking up a wepon either. That only makes you a warrior. In order to betray a people, one would think that you need to be in a position to do it. Being a Stone Shaman would fit into that requirement in my opinion.

Although, honestly, I have no idea what Szeth might have done. It must have been very very bad, an unthinkable thing, so that Shin hope there won't ever be someone like Szeth again.

Well, that's the reasons why I think Szeth was a Stone Shaman or at least an apprentice of them.

To finish, there is the quote that made me start thinking about Szeth. What follows is really really baseless stuff, just for a warning

But then, did they (the Voidbringers) even exist? His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did.

Szeth is very bound by his honor. It's his honor that makes him do as he is told by the holder of his Oathstone. He has appearently taken an oath requiring him to do just that.

There is another quote about why Szeth is keeping his oath.

If he questioned Stone Shamanism, would he then question his nature as Truthless? [...] Though his murders and sins would damnation him, at least his soul would be given to the stones upon his death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness. Better to exist in agony than to vanish entirely.

If Szeth keeps to his oath (making him Truthless), his soul will be given to the stones, which seems to be the Stone Shaman version of Heaven. Szeth is bound by his honor because he believes in Stone Shamanism.

Back to the quote above. Szeth's honor demands that Voidbringers exist. So there must be a relation between Stone Shamanism and the Voidbringers. One could phrase it that way: Stone Shamanism only makes sense, when Voidbringers exist.

I'd say that the original purpose of the Stone Shamans was fighting against the Voidbringers. If they didn't exist, Stone Shamanism would be wrong. Which would make Szeth's oath purposeless. That would be why his honor demanded that Voidbringers exist.

Then there is the other part of the quote. His punishment – being made Truthless – declared that Voidbringers didn't exist.

First, let me explain what I think is his punishment. It's not that he is given the Blade. That would only make him a warrior (see above), though requiring him to have an oathstone as every warrior has. The punishment is that he is exiled, and that he is forbidden to kill himself and to give up his Blade.

I would believe that a normal Shin warrior could refuse to kill anybody by killing himself, thus not following the order of his master. That is not possible for a Truthless (by the way, I believe that title means that he doesn't belong in the Valley of Truth anymore, nothing more).

But how does that declare that Voidbringers do not exist?

Hope you can help me out here.

[Satsuoni]

Hm. Not a bad idea!

I'll approve of it Won' espouse it for now, though.

Also, I didn't remember that interview, or missed it entirely

Stones appear to be a form of sum total of afterlife for Shin, not Heaven... Hell (or damnation) for Szeth, heaven for sinless.

Hm... My thinking is kind of muddled, but...

OK: Really not sure about this one, but maybe their teachings got corrupted, resulting in either casting Radiants as villains or gods (possibly one order against another, I still think Stone Shamans may be related to Stonewards), and discarding the voidbringers entirely. Then, becoming one or claiming that they were human like all others would be a horrible sin, punishable by, well, truthlessness.

Sample scenario (pure speculation): Szeth discovers some radiant powers of windrunner. But the shamans are degenerate stonewards, and they hate windrunners. They see that he betrayed their heritage, and tell him "Windrunners were assassins we fought against! you want to be like one -here is your blade, and out with ya!"

Uff.. sleep...

[ReaderAt2046]

I've been thinking for a while that the "truth" Szeth violated was the defeat of the Voidbringers. In other words, the Stone Shamans are the descendants of the Stonewards, and maybe of other Radiants, and their culture is based on the premise that the Voidbringers were defeated at Ahariatem, just as the Heralds said. So Szeth uncovers evidence that the Voidbringers might return, presents it to the Shamans, and is made Truthless.

[Aethling]

Even non-violent societies train some forms of martial arts. The fact that his art is weaponless wouldn't distance him from anyone else.

Shallan and Kaladin drew upon their powers before they even had a clue they existed. Szeth just has more experience using the powers. He may have had someone like Teft to explain somethings to him, but that does not mean full scale training. If you think that Jasnah discovered her abilities the same way that Shallan did, you have 3 of 4 people in the story that discovered their abilities by accident. It is not such a stretch to say Szeth came across his in the same way. Szeth is older than Kaladin and Shallan. I haven't seen anything that would put him in relation to Jasnah, but I would guess he is younger than she is. He has at least 6 years of experience on Kaladin though. Kaladin was still in his village when the Gavilar was killed. He was with the army for a few weeks shy of 4 years, and he has been with a slave for roughly a year. Throw in that they were already fighting on the Plains before Kaladin joined Ammaram, and that is a huge experience gap.

By his actions, I would guess that he became truthless by using a weapon to kill someone in defense of others. That is purely speculation though.

The Blade is part of his punishment. If he were to give it up, it would lower his shame somewhat, thus they made it where he cannot give it up voluntarily.

Now, you may have a point saying the Stone Shamans are the decendants of an order of the Knights, and that Urithru is in Shin lands. There is one blurb that states it was in the west close to Honor.

[ReaderAt2046]

Even non-violent societies train some forms of martial arts. The fact that his art is weaponless wouldn't distance him from anyone else.

Shallan and Kaladin drew upon their powers before they even had a clue they existed. Szeth just has more experience using the powers. He may have had someone like Teft to explain somethings to him, but that does not mean full scale training. If you think that Jasnah discovered her abilities the same way that Shallan did, you have 3 of 4 people in the story that discovered their abilities by accident. It is not such a stretch to say Szeth came across his in the same way. Szeth is older than Kaladin and Shallan. I haven't seen anything that would put him in relation to Jasnah, but I would guess he is younger than she is. He has at least 6 years of experience on Kaladin though. Kaladin was still in his village when the Gavilar was killed. He was with the army for a few weeks shy of 4 years, and he has been with a slave for roughly a year. Throw in that they were already fighting on the Plains before Kaladin joined Ammaram, and that is a huge experience gap.

By his actions, I would guess that he became truthless by using a weapon to kill someone in defense of others. That is purely speculation though.

The Blade is part of his punishment. If he were to give it up, it would lower his shame somewhat, thus they made it where he cannot give it up voluntarily.

Now, you may have a point saying the Stone Shamans are the decendants of an order of the Knights, and that Urithru is in Shin lands. There is one blurb that states it was in the west close to Honor.

The weird thing isn't that he knows how to use a Basic Lashing, it's that he know what it's called. He knows things that only another Radiant could know.

[Aethling]

Well, that is what HE called it. The small ars arcanum at the end refers to it like that also, but Sanderson's books have a history of having ars arcanums that are incomplete or misleading.

There are several references throughout the book that histories exist from the time of the radiants. he may have simply read a book and learned that. Renarin makes a reference to them. Jasnah is using some of them for her research. Even the ardents know more about the era than they let others know.

There may be much truth in the theory, unfortunately one book isn't enough to answer many questions.

[Telcontar]

Remember, I was trying to put together things about Shin and Szeth we know, because of the book or interviews. Nothing will be sure until the Szeth-book.

About martial arts. Of course, people train them everywhere, I do for example. But the thing is, there is no such thing as a non-violent society on the scale of a whole people. (Depends on how you define the word 'people', I know) But the first thing a Rosharian will think of when thinking about Shin seems to be: harmless and look like children. In Shinovar there must be violence, why should there be warriors if not?

But the way kammar is described, it made me think of Aikido. Turning your agressors force against himself. But that requires an agressor. Also, martial arts have mostly been developped for self-defense. And often in secluded groups. Everyone knows the Shaolin monks, but those are not the only groups who developped a martial art.

It's only later, in our modern society that normal people get to train martial arts, because they want to do it. Or for soldiers, policemen because they might need it.

I know it's speculation, but in a society that is described as mostly harmless (err, is it still Roshar we're talking about ? ) I believe it would be a secluded group inside the society which is trained in a martial art and not everyone who wants to.

I don't think it is killing someone with a weapon that made Szeth Truthless. Only if that someone was a very special person, like the head-Stone-Shaman. Killing is the greatest of sins to the Shin, but if that makes you Truthless, I don't believe there would only be Szeth.

Of course, Szeth could have got into an argument with his superiors about the existence of Voidbringers, or the foundation of their belief, which would be the foundation of the Shin society. And then killed that superior. Bringing both your thought togeter, Aethling and Reader

[kari-no-sugata]

I've been thinking about this for a bit. Here's some conclusions:

1) Szeth is not an ordinary criminal nor is he being punished like one

2) Szeth believes in Stone Shamanism still, or mostly does

3) Truthless are rare in the extreme and mean something specific

4) Maybe Shin aren't so peace-loving

Firstly, let's consider "Truthless". I had wondered if it was a synonym for "traitor" effectively, but since it being capitalized, I would presume not. Maybe Szeth is "the Truthless" rather than just "a Truthless" too - maybe there's just one Shardblade in Shinovar, for example. I doubt we can guess much on what Truthless means in practice without knowing a lot more about Shin culture, but it seems to be quite a specific thing, and is unlikely to be something that is easy to achieve.

Let's consider Szeth and his punishment himself. He is effectively his own jailor. This implies that either he is trusted to keep himself under his punishment until he dies or there is something extremely strong and effective preventing him from rebelling. I wonder if Brandon is using Szeth as an example of how a "good religious person can do evil because of his religion" or if it's something entirely different. Certainly Szeth wants his punishment to end - he's going insane from it continuing - yet he refuses to run away from it. There seems to be an interesting parallel here with the torture Heralds got - is that just a co-incidence? Whatever the case, Szeth has not betrayed his people in his heart else he would be rebelling far more than he is.

For a supposedly peaceful people the Shin seem to have a lot of hidden weapons/battle skills - Szeth is the single most dangerous fighter on the continent that we've seen by a very very long way. I doubt Szeth is supposed to be some super genius fighter either - rather, this is a result of his training. I wouldn't actually be surprised if he got most of his battle skills after becoming Truthless. I wonder if the Shin have some kind of hidden rules like "in peacetime the farmers rule and in wartime the warriors rule" or the like, and the Shin have carefully preserved all their ancient fighting skills, just in case.

In the "Szeth was perceived as betraying his people in a fundamental way" quote from Brandon, notice the "was perceived" part. In other words, Szeth did not necessarily actually "betray" his people or commit some major crime. Maybe it's more like Szeth was selected to be Truthless or he was made Truthless as the cover for something else.

On a side note, maybe Szeth is going by his grandfather's name because the guy is dead while his father is still alive - that is, he needs a "normal" name but if his grandfather is long dead then he can't be dishonored by association with Szeth. It maybe even be that Szeth's father is the one who made Szeth Truthless.

[hoser]

Interesting post, Telcontar. I think Shaman is a good guess at what he might have been. The Truthless punishment seems to go beyond being punished for a mistake. Brandon uses the word betrayal, so being a Stone Shaman and acting fundamentally contrary to Stone Shamanism would logically be a worse crime than the same action taken by a non-Stone Shaman.

The main problem I have with the theory that Stone Shamanism is opposed to Voidbringers is encapsulated by the question:

But how does that declare that Voidbringers do not exist?

To me the most intriguing quote is the one about the Voidbringers. I believe it is preceded by the thought that the Voidbringers were able to retain stormlight perfectly.

An implication of this is that the Voidbringers' use of stormlight was significant. But, as I understand it, there is effectively no stormlight in Shinovar (I assume: no highstorms=no stormlight). (Off-topic: Does this imply that Odium's magic system makes use of stormlight?)

Does this mean that the Voidbringers were not active in Shinovar?

If so, then maybe the Stone Shamans (Shamen?) really don't believe in their existence, hence the punishment that denies their existence. But his punishment doesn't seem to have anything to do with Voidbringers. Does the act that he is being punished for relate to the Voidbringers? If the Voidbringers are proven to exist, does it invalidate his punishment?

His honor demands that the Voidbringers exist. I read that as also saying that his blasphemous act related to the Voidbringers. If his honor was involved, hopefully it means that he did something intended to harm or impede them. I think he believes he did the right thing when he acted to precipitate his punishment.

Consider the following:

1. He was once "very respected" in Shinovar.
   
2. Fighting people are not respected in Shinovar.
   
3. He knows Kammar, a form of martial arts fighting.
   
4. He has a sophisticated understanding of surgebinding, suggesting that he was trained in that also.
   
5. He has a unique Shardblade that turns his eyes blue temporarily when he carries it.
   
6. He is very skilled in his use of the Shardblade, also suggesting training.
   
7. He does surgebinding, but has no fabrial other than the Shardblade, nor an apparent relationship with a spren. In fact, his lashings are incompatible with Shardplate, which is not so for the Radiants.
   
8. He doesn't think his father should be sullied by association with him, but has no such qualms about his grandfather.
   

How does one even practice surgebinding in Shinovar? With no stormlight to work with, it seems impossible.

Telcontar makes a good argument about all his training being with the Shamans. As religious functionaries, they might be permitted under certain circumstances to capture stormlight, bring it to Shinovar and train with it. Or they could train outside Shinovar. It would seem strange to sentence someone for a blasphemous offense and then train them in surgebinding.

A possibility is that he got the ideas that led him to commit his crime from other people. I imagine his grandfather to be among them, so he doesn't mind dragging his grandfather down by association. By implication, his father had nothing to do with it. If so, there must be a subversive thread among the Shin. Some of his training could have been with the Shin Underground.

As he starts the assassination of Gavilar, he thinks:

As far as he knew, Szeth had killed every stonewalker who had ever seen what he could do.

So:

he has killed other stonewalkers previously

other non-stonewalkers have seen him in action and survived

To me this implies that his surgebinding training must have been among the Shin (or he killed the stonewalkers that trained him, but I don't like that idea).

At least that is what my reading of the tea leaves reveals today .

Edited May 23, 2012 by hoser

[Vikter]

His honor demands that the Voidbringers exist. I read that as also saying that his blasphemous act related to the Voidbringers. If his honor was involved, hopefully it means that he did something intended to harm or impede them. I think he believes he did the right thing when he acted to precipitate his punishment.

Slightly OT here, but I did not want to start a separate thread for such a small theory ( which someone here who pays more attention will most Likely dis prove anyway). This statement is more or less why I think Szeth will fail in his attempt to kill Dalinar. I feel like Szeth will be arriving at the Shattered Plains the same time as Shallan and Jasnah, who have figured out the void bringer connection. I think the Szeth will find/over hear this information and therefore be compeled to return to Shinovar to inform his people of the True Desolation and the Voidbringer threat.

[Odium's_Shard]

But he is an outcast from his peoples. Even if his honor compels him, if he has those feelings for Shinovar, on what grounds do his people have to believe him, a Truthless. The very name implies he is not to be trusted.

[Telcontar]

Let's consider Szeth and his punishment himself. He is effectively his own jailor. This implies that either he is trusted to keep himself under his punishment until he dies or there is something extremely strong and effective preventing him from rebelling. I wonder if Brandon is using Szeth as an example of how a "good religious person can do evil because of his religion" or if it's something entirely different. Certainly Szeth wants his punishment to end - he's going insane from it continuing - yet he refuses to run away from it. There seems to be an interesting parallel here with the torture Heralds got - is that just a co-incidence? Whatever the case, Szeth has not betrayed his people in his heart else he would be rebelling far more than he is.

I agree that he is his own jailor. Remember when he was with Taravangian and saw him kill all those people in the hidden 'hospital'? Szeth started to advance towards the king, thinking about making an end to his doings until Mr.T commanded him expressively to stand aside. I'd say that Szeth could actually act against his oath/honor, if he dared.

As mentioned in the OP, I think it's his belief in Stone Shamanism that makes him stick to his oath. If he does not keep his oath, he would be exiled to nothingness, and that appearently is a worse fate than be damned to Szeth.

For a supposedly peaceful people the Shin seem to have a lot of hidden weapons/battle skills

Kammar, supposedly Surgebinding, maybe a whole bunch of Shardblades (reffering to the theory that Shin keep the Blades). I agree, compared to other people that is quite a lot.

But being docile does not necessarily mean that you'd be unable to defend yourself if attacked. I still think it's a thing of preserving knowledge.

The KR were those who preserved the knowledge of war in Alethela to give the other nine kingdoms peace. Alethela was the warrior kingdom, while the otheres could live in peace until the next Desolation would come.

I see Stone Shamans in a similar way. Preserving their skills to protect the Shin from any harm that could come to them.

In the "Szeth was perceived as betraying his people in a fundamental way" quote from Brandon, notice the "was perceived" part. In other words, Szeth did not necessarily actually "betray" his people or commit some major crime. Maybe it's more like Szeth was selected to be Truthless or he was made Truthless as the cover for something else.

I like that. I hadn't paid attention to the wording. Which would be wise, after all it's a BS-quote. I'll come to that , but I'd like to point out already that Szeth seems to think that he deserves his punishment.

Voidbringers. I believe it is preceded by the thought that the Voidbringers were able to retain stormlight perfectly.

It is.

Voidbringers will be connected closely to Szeth's story, I agree. There is an interesting thing though. Szeth describes Voidbringers at one point as (freely quoting):

creatures of rock and flame, huge.

The description made me think about thunderclasts. And then we have Dalinar who took the thunderclasts for Voidbringers. Let's start another weird idea. Thunderclasts have been theorized as beings (one of the Ten Deats eventually) that are summoned from Stone. The summoning would require Stormlight put into stone. Those beings would then 'hold' the Stormlight perfectly, meaning that thunderclasts would not leak Stormlight and simply cease to exist when Stormlight has run out. To kill such a thing one would need to sever the connection of it to the Shard. And that would require a Shardblade.

Also, holding Stormlight perfectly would only be a useful thing, if you don't have the intention to use it. The loss Szeth experiences is not that important compared to the amount of Stormlight he actually uses. He wouldn't really gain something by holding it in perfectly.

Something that requires Stormlight to come into 'life' instead would profit MUCH more if it could hold it perfectly. (Similar to Lifeless in Warbreaker)

OK, back to topic:

I think he believes he did the right thing when he acted to precipitate his punishment.

I agree. I can't really back it up though. But that's where I come back to the BS-quote mentioned above. Szeth was perceived as betraying his people. What I make of it is the following.

Szeth did something, believing it to be the right thing

His people did see that as a betrayal

Szeth was punished, made Truthless

Thought Szeth believes he did the right thing, he knows that what he did was contrary to the beliefs of his people.

So he accepts his punishment.

I don't think he questioned Stone Shamanism to begin with. If he had already questioned it before, he probably would not keep to his oath that much.

How does one even practice surgebinding in Shinovar? With no stormlight to work with, it seems impossible.

You answer it yourself, I'd say. Either you bring it in, or you go outside. Which wouldn't be practical, but it also requires acces to Surgebinding to but a few persons. Also Stormlight is sacred to the Shin, which also points to the conclusion, that the use of it would be restricted to some religious leaders.

[Dros]

But he is an outcast from his peoples. Even if his honor compels him, if he has those feelings for Shinovar, on what grounds do his people have to believe him, a Truthless. The very name implies he is not to be trusted.

I imagine great epics are made of such struggles, eh?

[Aethling]

Well, at the very least he will have a difficult time with Dalinar now that Kaladin has realized some of his power and Shallan and Jasnah are on the way back. Dalinar and Adolin both have much more battle experience than any of the bearers he has faced so, far as far as we know.

Somehow, I feel they will get a pretty large advance warning of his coming through Syl.

Recent fantasy has also had a history of having a disreputable character lose the dishonor through righteous acts. Hratghen did it somewhat in Elantris. Vasher is continuing to do it in Warbreaker. Verin redeems herself in WoT. The main character in Naked Empire does it (and he is from a non-violent society at first). Luke does it in the final book of PJO. Eragon's half-brother does it. Rand does it for an entire class of men when he cleanses the Taint. People these days still believe in redemption.

[Windrunner]

Random idea, semi-related to the OP. Farmers are the Stone Shaman. Then there wouldn't have to be two top-tier groups in Shinovar. I definitely agree that Szeth believed in Stone Shamanism, but I'm not entirely convinced that he was one. I like the idea though, no one has ever proposed it before

[TruthlessOfEverywhere]

I read your post this morning before I went to work, and it sparked a train of thought that I couldn't get out of my head all day. So I figured I'd set up a log-in to respond with a few musings. Don't have a lot of experience participating in this sort of thing and I hope this is ok for this thread...

I see a lot of parallels between Szeth and my other favorite Cosmere inhabitant, TenSoon. I'll limit the scope of my theory to Sezth and leave you to fill in the Mistborn parts. I don't know that I've seen any hints as to Szeth's place in society before he became the world's most affordable contract killer, but Stone Shaman seems more likely than expert turnip farmer. That being said I think the 'Truth' in 'Truthless' almost certainly refers to some kind of religious belief. His betrayal was not something tangible like a theft or a murder. A respected figure publicly endorsing a heretical belief (the voidbringers are coming, the oathpact has been broken, ect.) could certainly be seen as a betrayal of a whole people. He is Truthless by virtue of rejecting a Truth of his people and thus cursed to wander the land bound to the whims of a (maybe?) arch villain... Yet Sezth is in fact more 'pure' in his beliefs and his honor forces him to act to save his people.

This would fit with some of the common themes in these books. We've got a good five years or so to speculate on the details, but underlying ideas about faith versus a corrupt or mistaken establishment seem to be coming from similar place.

[Telcontar]

Random idea, semi-related to the OP. Farmers are the Stone Shaman. Then there wouldn't have to be two top-tier groups in Shinovar. I definitely agree that Szeth believed in Stone Shamanism, but I'm not entirely convinced that he was one. I like the idea though, no one has ever proposed it before

Glad to finally have come up with a virgin idea

Anyway, I don't think farmers would be Stone Shamans. For instance, farmers need earth, why would they at the same time spread the belief that stone is sacred?

I believe farmers are only some respected people. Because they feed people. In our world, nowadays noone seems to remember that, but farmers are essential to every society. Shin recognize that.

To back up a little bit. I have mentioned in this thread that Alethela was the warrior-kingdom. The KR lived there to preserve the knowledge of warfare and to be ready for the next Desolation. If every one of the ten Silver Kingdoms had a role to play, Shin would be the ones to feed the others, hence their respect for farmers.

Do you have any evidence for your idea, Windrunner? I'll be glad to argue with you

I read your post this morning before I went to work, and it sparked a train of thought that I couldn't get out of my head all day. So I figured I'd set up a log-in to respond with a few musings. Don't have a lot of experience participating in this sort of thing and I hope this is ok for this thread...

I know that feeling, one of my favorite ideas about tWoK came up from one of those trains of thought (Shallan and the symbolheads, for those who know my activity in these forums)

So, be welcome here and yes, it's ok for this thread, it's not even off-topic and the Almighty knows, if there is no off-topic-posts in a thread, it's not on the 17th-shard-forums.

I see a lot of parallels between Szeth and my other favorite Cosmere inhabitant, TenSoon. I'll limit the scope of my theory to Sezth and leave you to fill in the Mistborn parts. I don't know that I've seen any hints as to Szeth's place in society before he became the world's most affordable contract killer, but Stone Shaman seems more likely than expert turnip farmer. That being said I think the 'Truth' in 'Truthless' almost certainly refers to some kind of religious belief. His betrayal was not something tangible like a theft or a murder. A respected figure publicly endorsing a heretical belief (the voidbringers are coming, the oathpact has been broken, ect.) could certainly be seen as a betrayal of a whole people. He is Truthless by virtue of rejecting a Truth of his people and thus cursed to wander the land bound to the whims of a (maybe?) arch villain... Yet Sezth is in fact more 'pure' in his beliefs and his honor forces him to act to save his people.

This would fit with some of the common themes in these books. We've got a good five years or so to speculate on the details, but underlying ideas about faith versus a corrupt or mistaken establishment seem to be coming from similar place.

The hints about Szeth's place in society aren't in the book but in the interview-database. It's Brandon who said that Szeth was a very respected member of his society.

What I wondered about 'Truthless' is whether it is a known title among the Shin, or if that title has been created for Szeth. It's a major 'T' so it probably is some kind of title.

The Szeth-parts gave me the impression, that whatever 'Truthless' is, is general knowledge among the Shin. I can't really back that up though.

To counter that, Szeth's betrayal seems to be pretty unique.

Another idea is that the 'Truth' refers only to the Valley of Truth, making Szeth the one without Truth, ie without home, the exilee he is.

[TruthlessOfEverywhere]

The hints about Szeth's place in society aren't in the book but in the interview-database. It's Brandon who said that Szeth was a very respected member of his society.

What I wondered about 'Truthless' is whether it is a known title among the Shin, or if that title has been created for Szeth. It's a major 'T' so it probably is some kind of title.

The Szeth-parts gave me the impression, that whatever 'Truthless' is, is general knowledge among the Shin. I can't really back that up though.

To counter that, Szeth's betrayal seems to be pretty unique.

Another idea is that the 'Truth' refers only to the Valley of Truth, making Szeth the one without Truth, ie without home, the exilee he is.

I've read that quote, and I'm actually on board with the whole Stone Shaman thing. The idea of Szeth as a warrior monk gone bad is pretty sweet. I guess the point I was trying to make is this. Much like a certain Kandra, Szeth may have come into conflict with his people because of a stronger dedication to whatever Truth the Shin hold sacred. Thus the comment about 'perceived betrayal.' While in fact the whole time Szeth is probably being more true to the Shin way than the group in power who exiled him.

Why can't Sezth's book be next? I'm sure we'll all have a good laugh watching Shallan off her abusive dad with a shardblade, but I really don't want to wait till 2015 to hear to truth about the Truthless.

[Telcontar]

I guess the point I was trying to make is this. Much like a certain Kandra, Szeth may have come into conflict with his people because of a stronger dedication to whatever Truth the Shin hold sacred. Thus the comment about 'perceived betrayal.' While in fact the whole time Szeth is probably being more true to the Shin way than the group in power who exiled him.

Okay. It's been a while since I've read the Mistborn trilogy, and I don't even know who actually has my books (I borrowed them to a friend, who gave them to his brother afterwards, might be they're elsewhere now...) And I don't really remember the thing about the kandra. But I like your idea. I'd probably understand it better if I had my Mistborn books at hand, but anyway.

Let's say that Shin lore has changed during the millenia. And Szeth discovered the original foundations of Stone Shamanism during his training, which declared that Voidbringers existed, and Stone Shamans fought against them. Over the millenia the lore got corrupted. Might be that Odium had a way to influence it

like Ruin did with those prophecies

Szeth discovered the truth, which went against all teachings and tried to warn his people about the upcoming Last Desolation. That was perceived as a betrayal of everything Stone Shamanism stands for. And because Szeth got punished for it, the punishment declares that Voidbringers did not exist, while his honor binds him to the 'real' Stone Shamnism making him keep his oath.

Does that more or less reflect your thoughts?

Why can't Sezth's book be next? I'm sure we'll all have a good laugh watching Shallan off her abusive dad with a shardblade, but I really don't want to wait till 2015 to hear to truth about the Truthless.

Totally agree with that one. Shallan has said so often that her life was eventless, she was just drawing everything, then she killed her dad, we already know that.

[Odium's_Shard]

Yes but Shallan is the gateway into the Truth about Soulcasting, Jasnah's hidden talents (which will help us better understand Surgebinding as a whole), Shallan's Memories and how they fit, and most importantly of all, Shadesmar!

If we get a better understanding of what the Cognitive Realm does inside, and as a conjunction to the other two, it will have Cosmere-wide implications as far as understanding of Realmatic division of Investiture based magics are concerned! Also, we might be able to understand why Cognitive has to come between Spiritual and Physical to facilitate the draw of power between the two.

[TruthlessOfEverywhere]

@telcontar Yes,that is exactly what I was trying to get at, thank you for summing it up so nicely,

[CabbageHead]

I'd say that the original purpose of the Stone Shamans was fighting against the Voidbringers. If they didn't exist, Stone Shamanism would be wrong. Which would make Szeth's oath purposeless. That would be why his honor demanded that Voidbringers exist.

Then there is the other part of the quote. His punishment – being made Truthless – declared that Voidbringers didn't exist.

First, let me explain what I think is his punishment. It's not that he is given the Blade. That would only make him a warrior (see above), though requiring him to have an oathstone as every warrior has. The punishment is that he is exiled, and that he is forbidden to kill himself and to give up his Blade.

I've wondered about this before. If you try to find some relatively literal meaning for "Truthless", the closest I can come up with is Liar. His punishment declares that Voidbringers don't exist. Does that mean he is being called a liar for saying that they do? His honour demands that they do exist. A man's word is his honour. There is a possibility here that he has actually encountered voidbringers, and was made truthless for violating religious dogma. Pure speculation, can't wait to find out the truth of the matter

[Rybal]

After reading these posts, I can't help thinking that what Szeth did that was so against the Shin is to not only consider taking up arms himself in preparation for the Voidbringers, but to encourage others to do the same. To do so, he would have had to pursuade people that the Voidbringers were real, which may be against Shin teachings (hence the Truthless title). His honor may only be satisfied if he can prove that the Voidbringers were/are real.

[hoser]

Well, I just found another quote that seems relevant to understanding Szeth. At the end of the battle with Gavilar, Szeth expresses some interesting thoughts:

"Nothing makes sense anymore," Szeth whispered, tucking the strange sphere away. "It's all unraveling. I am sorry, King of the Alethi. I doubt that you care. Not anymore, at least." He stood up. "At least you won't have to watch the world ending with the rest of us."

I interpret this as meaning that Szeth believes in the imminent final desolation. He may have tried to do something to avert it before, but he currently feels hopeless and is resigned to the occurrence.

In conjunction with the honor quotes, this indicates to me that he believes in the Voidbringers and since his honor demands that they exist, the act(s) he is being punished for tie into the Voidbringers and the coming desolation.

What do you guys think?

[Telcontar]

@hoser,

that quote certainly fits with the rest we have discussed in this thread. Szeth seems to know about Voidbringers, and the 'end of the world'-thing seems to indicate that Szeth also believes that the Last Desolation is coming.