22 replies to this topic

[Windrunner]

I put this topic here rather then the SA thread because it has minor Elantris spoilers and I wanted to be careful. So I’ve been batting this theory around for a while. This isn’t anything earth-shattering, just the consolidation of some fairly basic speculation. I’m going to stay away from how the Radiants use Surgebindings for the most part, and focus more on how fabrials focus Stormlight.

My basic for this theory is, that at least in fabrials, Surgebinding is form based, just like AonDor of Sel. We know the cut and type of the gem attracts different types of spren, which come together to create some sort of magical affect. It’s just like AonDor and modifiers. The gem and cut specify what power is used, and spren provide the connection to Honor, so that the Stormlight can be utilized without having to have a Surgebinder. This also allows the powers to be more expansive, because they aren’t confined by having to go through humans. We know that Allomancy was confined by a human body so Vin was vaporized, fabrials don’t have that confinement. That’s why so many powers, that aren’t Surges, are possible. The Stormlight that powers the fabrial utilized through the spren and shaped by the cut of and type of the gem. It’s also possible that spren provide a limited cognitive aspect, which has been present in all other magic systems. It also seems that the affect the fabrial produces should tie back to the essences and/or Soulcasting properties in some way.

The question then becomes, is the Surgebinding’s used by the Radiants form based as well? I think it was confirmed somewhere that the symbols on the Radiant’s plate were similar to AonDor, but that just might be my addled brain. Are spren grafted onto certain places in a Radiant’s Spiritweb? I would say it was the body focuses, except Soul, Inhalatation and Exhalation aren’t body parts. I suppose that could be an in-world misconception but who knows?

Edited by Windrunner, 17 April 2012 - 11:19 PM.

[Voidus]

I think it was confirmed somewhere that the symbols on the Radiant’s plate were similar to AonDor, but that just might be my addled brain.

Well I wouldn't call your brain addled but I can't find anything on this if it has been that would be very interesting though.

I would say it was the body focuses, except Soul, Inhalatation and Exhalation aren’t body parts. I suppose that could be an in-world misconception but who knows?

That has been sort of confirmed, the response was something along the lines of 'yeah, kind of' but considering the ambiguity in that response I think it's obviously not just the body focuses so there's still at least a part that we're not sure of.
EDIT: found the quote

JOSH
Is the focus for Surgebinding the Body Focuses?
MI'CHELLE
Is the body the focus for Surgebinding, I think is what he meant.

[Eric's note: Well, I meant what I said, but whatever. ]

BRANDON SANDERSON
Oh, okay. The Physical?
MI'CHELLE
Yeah.
BRANDON SANDERSON
Surgebinding is... Yeah, kinda. That's a "yeah, kinda."

Edited by Voidus, 18 April 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[Telcontar]

My basic for this theory is, that at least in fabrials, Surgebinding is form based, just like AonDor of Sel. We know the cut and type of the gem attracts different types of spren, which come together to create some sort of magical affect. It’s just like AonDor and modifiers. The gem and cut specify what power is used, and spren provide the connection to Honor, so that the Stormlight can be utilized without having to have a Surgebinder.

The type and cut of gems determines what sort of spren can be attracted to it and captured in it, is what Navani says, I believe. I agree that spren provide a connection to Honor, Stormlight would only be the fuel needed for the fabrial to work. But also the type of spren seems to be important. I would believe that the spren captured in the gem used in the pain-knife would be a pain-spren.
If spren are indeed cognitive aspects (CA) that have bound stormlight, then the CA would persist in the spren, it's what makes the spren a specific type of spren. But a spren has no physical aspect and thus no means to do what the CA normally does. The CA of pain knows it's pain. But without a physical aspect it is naught but that knowledge. By trapping them, you give them a physical aspect. And by the cut you would determine the actual outlet of the Power.

Flame-spren for example might also be heat-spren. So the spren is the CA of heat. So everything it knows it does is that it's hot. But without something physical which can cause the heat, the spren doesn't do anything. You trap it in a ruby. The ruby's Essence is fire, so it would make sense that cou capture heat-spren in rubies. By giving the spren a gem as physical aspect it can do what is it's purpose: emit heat. (those heat-fabrials) ONLY that normally the heat comes from burning stuff. The normal fuel is wood, coal, oil etc. But you wouldn't want to burn diamonds (don't know if any other of the gems can burn). So what is used to produce heat is Stormlight.

This also allows the powers to be more expansive, because they aren’t confined by having to go through humans. We know that Allomancy was confined by a human body so Vin was vaporized, fabrials don’t have that confinement. That’s why so many powers, that aren’t Surges, are possible. The Stormlight that powers the fabrial utilized through the spren and shaped by the cut of and type of the gem.

It seems to me that gems are confined, too. If you use them in Soulcasting, they can crack. Also, they can crack in Shardplate. I only suppose that this would be the case with fabrials. But as fabrials in general seem to use much smaller amounts of Stormlight it will be much less likely to happen.

It’s also possible that spren provide a limited cognitive aspect, which has been present in all other magic systems. It also seems that the affect the fabrial produces should tie back to the essences and/or Soulcasting properties in some way.

yeah, you seem to have the same idea I explained above. Gems are tied to Essences (which are the same as Soulcasting properties IMO). I believe that only certain spren can be attracted to certain gems. The effect of the fabrial is then determined first by the gem who limits the type of spren that can be captured and secondly by the cut of the gem which determines how you make use of the spren.

The question then becomes, is the Surgebinding’s used by the Radiants form based as well? I think it was confirmed somewhere that the symbols on the Radiant’s plate were similar to AonDor, but that just might be my addled brain. Are spren grafted onto certain places in a Radiant’s Spiritweb? I would say it was the body focuses, except Soul, Inhalatation and Exhalation aren’t body parts. I suppose that could be an in-world misconception but who knows?

I think those symbols were glyphs, Roshar-glyphs. Of course those might be similar to Aons in their effect.
I theorize that spren increase one's spritual aspect. That's also what happens when you eat some Lerasium, when the Shaod turns you into an Elantrian or when you get more and more Breath. IIRC what is engraved in one's spiritweb is the oulet of the power, ie which power you can use and to what amount. Of course the spren must be responsible for that as well, so. Yes I suppose the spren modifies your spiritweb.
As to the body focuses. My personal opinion still is, that they are useless. I am probably wrong, but so far I haven't seen any reasonable explanation why these would be needed. And no, the fact that Kaladin is inhaling Stormlight is not enough for me, thank you for not bringing that up again
But. if the Surges one can use are indeed grafted into your spiritweb on body focuses, well, why not. I have no idea how to imagine a spiritweb, it may just cover your entire body like an additional layer of skin. Inhalation could be lungs. exhalation could mean not "breathing-out" but something different like one's smell. I just think the same body focus for two orders is not a good idea. As to the soul. Maybe on Roshar the host of your soul is the Heart. As in 'the spark (3rd order) of life' So it would be the heart.

I like the idea of Jasnah standing too close to someone she turns into fire. She gets all her hair burned off.
"Void, why can't I soulcast anymore"... And all those poor bald guys.

(Of course the spiritweb would remain intact even if your body loses some of it's parts, I know)

[Windrunner]

Well we seem to agree on most of what's being said, which is a good thing. Let me explain my rationale behind why I think cut determines, somewhat, what the spren do. If the only thing that affects what the fabrial does is the spren, it means that every type of spren would only grant one power. Flamespren would only make heat, and etc. But what if you wanted to do something else, like create a jet of flame. That would require a different type of spren. Or anticipationspren for example. A fabrial made with using one of them might be able to detect someone feeling anticipation. But what if you wanted a fabrial that could make someone feel anticipation? How else could you differentiate aside from cut? Fabrials seem to have many variances, far more then seem accountable by the relatively few number of common spren we see. It seems to me at least that there should be another way to shape the power a little more complexly so it could be utilized in multiple ways.

You seem to be under the impression that I don't understand that Stormlight is just the spiritual fuel of Surgebinding, similar to the Dor or Preservation. I'm sorry if I gave that impression but I agree with everything you said above about it.

I was thinking that perhaps either inhalation or exhalation could be tied to the diaphragm, which is responsible for both those processes. Body focuses seem like they have probably been warped somewhat by Vorinism, but are actual representations of something important to the magic system. I think of spren as grafts onto a spiritweb, because they aren't really making your aspect stronger, but rather attaching to you, forming a connection that can be broken. Increasing a spiritual aspect seems rather permanent, much like decreasing one via Hemalurgy. The most ready explanation is that the attachment forms at certain points on your Spiritweb, which is probably also the place that you would place a Hemalurgic spike if you wished to steal a spren from someone. Brandon has said that he pictures the Spiritweb as a series of connections inlayed over/in the body, almost like another set of nerves or blood vessels, He based the idea of of chi points. Does this help you visualize it better?

Thank you for taking the time to respond, I always enjoy debating things with you.

Edited by Windrunner, 18 April 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[Telcontar]

thank you very much for that Brandon-spiritweb-info. I didn't know that. That makes it a lot easier to me to understand that mysterious spiritweb.
and suddenly the body-focus-spiritweb-connection seems a lot more likely to me.

you're probably right about the cut. While it determines the type of spren it probably determines the use of the fabrial as well. But maybe you get different effects by combining gems. Like when you Soulcast you use different gems to create something that is not an Essence. (That's at least how I believe things work). If spren are CAs then there is probably spren for everything.
If we follow that new theory that Honor's splintering caused spren to come to existence, then it also explains why some spren are more rare than others. Rainspren for example are very rare, it's said in the book. So probably, when Honor splintered, there was no rain, as there is only rain during Highstorms and during the Weeping.

So I say it could be that the cut only determines what type of spren can be captured. Odium's_Shard would speak of the prismatic effect of the stone that also determines the outcome. And that effect would of course depend on the cut.

Let's summarize:
the type of gem determines what spren can be captured and probably also the effect of the fabrial
the cut of the gem determines what spren can be captured (and perhaps the effect as well)
the type of gem only determines the effect


About the rest.
I won't believe that one body focus will be the same for two orders until it will be stated so by BS
As to the bond, I understand it that way, that spren and human share their combined spritual aspects. And I'll have to disagree, I think that it indeed makes your aspect stronger. Because a stronger aspect is what is needed to perform magic. Remember BS talking about Mistborn having a 100% connection to Preservation while Allomancers would have only 50% and normal people about 30% ? (Not sure about the numbers but it's about like that) I believe that the Nahel bond increases your connection by lifting your spiritual aspect.
And the increasement is not permanent. For Allomancy via genetics it is. But if you become an Allomancer by Hemalurgy you can lose that power by removing the spike (as has happened to Spook). And you can lose Breath. Appearenlty Elantrians could become zombies in just one moment.

[Satsuoni]

You may also remember to consult with thesource
Assuming that Navani knows what she wrote about,

The cut and type of the gem determines what kind of spren are attracted to it and can be imprisoned in it. There must be thousands of possible combinations.

cold gravity pain heat wind (These are labels describing which spren are attracted to different gem cuts.)

Flamespren trapped in emerald

Tells us that you can attract spren to possibly, different gems with a differing cut, varying the resulting effect. You can trap flamespren in the emerald, possibly ruby, and maybe create an opposite effect (cooling/pain reduction) with the same spren. So, both cut and gem are important, it seems.
The signs on the KR armor were glyphs I think they were using to fine-tune the stormlight (fabrial) usage, but not sure how (Also, I think they were the same or similar glyphs that are currently used for male signing, and that is why they are used as ward sometimes).

[Windrunner]

I'll start off by saying that I agree with you 100% about two Orders not sharing a body focus. I was suggesting that maybe one of the Inhalation and Exhalation Orders are tied to the diaphragm, and possibly the other to the lungs, probably Windrunners.

I think you and I view Surgebinding differently. I see the spren being attached to a point on the Spiritweb, just like a Hemalurgic spike is, except without requiring a physical spike. The spren can be gained but also be lost just like a spike, the effect isn't permanent so the spiritual aspect isn't actually made more powerful, just added on to, like a branch being grafted onto a tree.

Now back up to those images Satsuoni mentioned. If you want to see the text with the images, look here.(Are we allowed to put the translated images up on the Coppermind instead of just the text? The pictures make it clearer) Fabrials work in concert in the emotion detection device, each appearing to detect something different. Also I found something really interesting.

Patterns of Stormlight filtered through the fabrial determine the power of the gem... The pattern cannot be seen with the naked eye.

So the way the gem(s) are arranged determines what power is used, apparently not the the cut. Funnily enough these patterns are symmetrical, just like the Vorins believe to be a sign of the Almighty/Honor. So this is how it appears to work.

• Specific gems are chosen
• Gems are cut into the proper shape to attract a certain spren
• Gems are arranged on the fabrial to create the desired Stormlight pattern
• Gemstone is charged with Stormlight
• Fabrial begins working

The only thing that we haven't really analyzed is what affect the holder of the gemstone has. They must have some function, or else they wouldn't be needed for Surgebinding, and Shallan's would have worked just fine after it was repaired. The only idea I've had is that perhaps the Shardblade damaged the spiritual aspect of the fabrial somehow. Another weird thing is that the Soulcasting fabrial doesn't appear to have spren trapped in it, just infused gems. The fabrials that need spren appear to be the ones that don't require humans to consciously use them. That's why I think the spren provide a Cognitive aspect to be used. They are primarily Spiritual entities but their power in that Realm would be enough to give them a limited aspect in the other two realms.It's also probably why most fabrials don't appear to be as strong as the abilities of regular Surgebinders. The fabrials only have small pieces of Honor inside them, but the Radiants had the Nahel spren so they had a much more powerful connection and a greater ability to use Surgebinding.

The point that Satsuoni brings up is an interesting one I'd been considering myself. What does the gemstone do, if not determine which type of spren can be trapped in it? Flamespren would fall under the essence fire whose gem is ruby. Emerald isn't even the opposite of ruby on the chart. So I feel like we're missing the how exactly the gem is involved in the attraction of spren.

So random revision of theory. The cut attracts the spren, the gem type restricts the powers somewhat, and then the placement of gems in a pattern defines it even further, allowing spren to provide extremely specialized effects by utilizing the Stormlight. That seems to be why Navani's emotion detection device is more complex then the Alerter. They both detect certain things. However the Alerter is more powerful, it can detect anything within a certain range because of the large gem allows it to be more powerful. However Navani's is more complex, allowing it to just detect the presence of certain emotions. I'd hazard a guess, that since it appears that any spren can be trapped in any gem, that both the Alerter and Navani's emotion detection bracelet contain the same type of spren. If I'm right about this, it works similar to AonDor. The gems are like the Aons and the patterns like the modifiers. If people seem to think I'm making any sense with all this I might write it up as a proper theory, since my original hypothesis has been proven flawed.

Edited by Windrunner, 19 April 2012 - 08:16 PM.

[Satsuoni]

Hmm..
If you consider the wording of the Navani notes, you may notice that she uses a slightly different terminology. TO wit, she calls a single gem with a trapped spren a fabrial, that is used in machines. Thus, the mood bracelet is a machine that uses 10 fabrials, each of them only responsible for a single emotion. Also, most of fabrials (machines?) that we see in the book are single or half-gem fabrials (OK, I'll still use fabrials for single-gem machines, nya), and the only one that we see based on (not powered by, I'll come to that later) several is the above mood bracelet, that is simply 10 separate fabrials in the same setting. So assuming that the arrangement defines function seems wrong to me (although may be the case for more complex fabrials).
IMO:
Cut AND gem together determine the interference patterns, as well as the spren attracted and the resulting function.
Simply cutting a gem is not sufficient to make a fabrial, the spren must be captured inside somehow.
Possibility: the setting (wire around the gemstone) helps binding the spren inside. Break the setting and the spren may escape, leaving just a stone (a broken fabrial). The wires and connections also channel the power of fabrial (like the case of painknife, only the blades cause crippling pain, etc. An aside - I want a painsword in the hand of every lighteye soldier ).
Next is just my subtheory:
There are two kinds of fabrial - the old fabrials and the new fabrials. The old fabrials include Shardplate , soulcasters and possibly shardblades. These are powered by stormlight-infused gems, but not controlled by such gems. Their spren are either in the bindings /settings, transferred from the stones, or they do not have spren, and have instead a glyph circuits that channel the power from Stormlight, emulating spren. So if you cut the circuitry, either the spren escapes, or it is like trying to fix a broken microchip by gluing in together - won't work. (And yes, I see that Shardblade is very different, although it still has the gemstone, since it does not seem to be powered by stormlight at all. Maybe it already has it sealed inside without leakage, and feeds on the souls of those it killed )
And the new fabrials are the ones created by Navani - they are based on capturing spren in the gemstones, and then charging the gem. The gems cannot be swapped with another gems in this case, since the spren will be lost.

[Kurkistan]

This is a complete side note, but I just had the image of Kaladin going mildly berserk after Navani accidentally seals Syl in a fabrial, leaving him to break the stone and free Syl in what appears to be an either an act of insanity or a bizarre "spren rights movement" as applies to windspren in general.

On that point, we know that there are a range of sentient spren (from Brandon's Google+ Q&A), so I wonder exactly how magnetic the "attraction" of cut gems is to spren. Could Syl just say "Ooo shiny" and then fly away once she (as a thinking being) realizes the unnaturalness of her attraction, or would she be drawn in like a vacuum? It's a question of whether the spren's attraction to fabrials is as a moth to flame or as a filing to a lodestone.

There is also the question of whether a simple "windspren cut" would be sufficient to attract Syl, or if a specialized "Honorspren cut" would be necessary.

Edited by Kurkistan, 20 April 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[Dros]

The pattern of gems attracting certain spren brings up another question for me, as well. There are cities that are laid out in different geometric shapes, right. Could that possibly be a way to attract a certain kind of spren to each location? Is that why the giant spren (can't remember its name or the city's name) located there and still remains?

[Lantern13]

Syl is not a windspren so a windspren cut wouldn't attract her. (unless brandon has said that an "honorspren" is in fact a sentient windspren [or unless there's a theory like that])

[Satsuoni]

The pattern of gems attracting certain spren brings up another question for me, as well. There are cities that are laid out in different geometric shapes, right. Could that possibly be a way to attract a certain kind of spren to each location? Is that why the giant spren (can't remember its name or the city's name) located there and still remains?

You know, I have always kinda thought that the form of the cities has to do with the vibrations caused by Highstorms That is, either the highstorms has created the cities from rock naturally due to the local resonance frequencies, or the cities were designed to minimize such damage by neutralizing vibrations. But you may be right, and the purpose may be spren/stormlight management.

[Telcontar]

I'll start off by saying that I agree with you 100% about two Orders not sharing a body focus. I was suggesting that maybe one of the Inhalation and Exhalation Orders are tied to the diaphragm, and possibly the other to the lungs, probably Windrunners.

my fault, did not get what you were saying. as good a guess as any I suppose.

I think you and I view Surgebinding differently. I see the spren being attached to a point on the Spiritweb, just like a Hemalurgic spike is, except without requiring a physical spike. The spren can be gained but also be lost just like a spike, the effect isn't permanent so the spiritual aspect isn't actually made more powerful, just added on to, like a branch being grafted onto a tree.

It seems to me that how we view Surgebinding is just a matter of terminology. the spren adds her spiritual aspect to your own, increasing your connection to Honor as long as the bond exists. I'd say we meant the same thing after all, didn't we?

About the Pattern of Stormlight

Patterns of Stormlight filtered through the fabrial determine the power of the gem... The pattern cannot be seen with the naked eye.

Just as a reminder.
as Satsuoni pointed out, the fabrial is only the gem with a spren trapped inside. That's why I'd interprete that quote differently. A stone is cut in a special way. Light that enters the gem is broken in many many ways, the 'prismatic effect'. The cut thus creates a pattern of Stormlight inside the gem. That may or may not in addition interact with the spren trapped inside. All of this determines the power of the gem.

The only thing that we haven't really analyzed is what affect the holder of the gemstone has. They must have some function, or else they wouldn't be needed for Surgebinding, and Shallan's would have worked just fine after it was repaired. The only idea I've had is that perhaps the Shardblade damaged the spiritual aspect of the fabrial somehow. Another weird thing is that the Soulcasting fabrial doesn't appear to have spren trapped in it, just infused gems. The fabrials that need spren appear to be the ones that don't require humans to consciously use them. That's why I think the spren provide a Cognitive aspect to be used. They are primarily Spiritual entities but their power in that Realm would be enough to give them a limited aspect in the other two realms.It's also probably why most fabrials don't appear to be as strong as the abilities of regular Surgebinders. The fabrials only have small pieces of Honor inside them, but the Radiants had the Nahel spren so they had a much more powerful connection and a greater ability to use Surgebinding.

I believe the holder does not have any effect. As to Shallan's broken Soulcaster. So far, we have not seen any working Soulcasting-fabrial. Ok, we've seen only two anyway, one at least was a fake. I've sometimes considered the possibility that there is no such thing as a fabrial used to Soulcast. That ardents only fool everyone. That would mean that they are all Surgebinders. Which is not that odd to believe IMO, because they are scholars after all, following the Ideal 'Learned'. (understanding that Jasnah's order is #5)
Also, their Soulcasting-abilities are the only thing that gives them any importance. So it makes sense for them to hide the secret that anyone could learn to Soulcast.
And then, Soulcaster-fabrials are not fabrials in the modern way. Jasnah's surely looks like a real one, so uncut stones will be sufficient for Soulcasting. And uncut stones don't attract spren. So they are not fabrials. I'll come to your distcintion between old and modern fabrials, Satsuoni

Cut AND gem together determine the interference patterns, as well as the spren attracted and the resulting function.
Simply cutting a gem is not sufficient to make a fabrial, the spren must be captured inside somehow.
Possibility: the setting (wire around the gemstone) helps binding the spren inside. Break the setting and the spren may escape, leaving just a stone (a broken fabrial). The wires and connections also channel the power of fabrial (like the case of painknife, only the blades cause crippling pain, etc. An aside - I want a painsword in the hand of every lighteye soldier )

Good question: how can you capture a spren? Without physical aspect, it's difficult to conceive that. Again, I don't think the setting plays a role in this. The question is related to another: how is it that Stormlight is captured in gems? And this time it's also uncut stones, which will capture less Stormlight than cut ones.
I imagine it like there is mirrors on the insides of the gems which will reflect the Light. Normal glass always bends the Light and reflects some of it. Mirrors reflect much more. Remember that gems leak Stormlight and will grow dun over the weeks.
With cut stones we have much more surface to reflect the Light, so it captures more.
Spren are essentially Stormlight so it would work in a similar way for them. Only that it is captured definitively, perhaps due the additional cognitive aspect somehow.

Next is just my subtheory:
There are two kinds of fabrial - the old fabrials and the new fabrials. The old fabrials include Shardplate , soulcasters and possibly shardblades. These are powered by stormlight-infused gems, but not controlled by such gems. Their spren are either in the bindings /settings, transferred from the stones, or they do not have spren, and have instead a glyph circuits that channel the power from Stormlight, emulating spren. So if you cut the circuitry, either the spren escapes, or it is like trying to fix a broken microchip by gluing in together - won't work. (And yes, I see that Shardblade is very different, although it still has the gemstone, since it does not seem to be powered by stormlight at all. Maybe it already has it sealed inside without leakage, and feeds on the souls of those it killed )
And the new fabrials are the ones created by Navani - they are based on capturing spren in the gemstones, and then charging the gem. The gems cannot be swapped with another gems in this case, since the spren will be lost.

I oppose your idea of old fabrials Concerning Soulcasters, see aboce. Shardplate and Shardblades are Invested objects, IMO. It has been confirmed for Shardblades:
WOB:

Szeth's Shardblade would be mostly immune to Pushing and Pulling [allomantic], as it's an Invested object.

As Shardplate is also said to be given by the Almighty I say those are Invested objects as well. In my terminology, they are invested by a Primary Investiture (directly from Shard to object), as in opposition to filled metalminds for example which are invested by the human (Secondary Investiture).
I see no problem with Shardblades using Stormlight however. There is that gem on the hilt and it would be possible that the gem is infused every time the Blade is back in the spritual realm Which is pretty often. Of course this is just a wild guess.

Why would Invested objects require Stormlight? It's similar to the phantom-army in Warbreaker. Those required Breath to hold together. They needed additional Breath to become 'alive'. So while Blade and Plate have magical abilities on their own, they still must be fueled.

This is a complete side note, but I just had the image of Kaladin going mildly berserk after Navani accidentally seals Syl in a fabrial, leaving him to break the stone and free Syl in what appears to be an either an act of insanity or a bizarre "spren rights movement" as applies to windspren in general.

On that point, we know that there are a range of sentient spren (from Brandon's Google+ Q&A), so I wonder exactly how magnetic the "attraction" of cut gems is to spren. Could Syl just say "Ooo shiny" and then fly away once she (as a thinking being) realizes the unnaturalness of her attraction, or would she be drawn in like a vacuum? It's a question of whether the spren's attraction to fabrials is as a moth to flame or as a filing to a lodestone.

There is also the question of whether a simple "windspren cut" would be sufficient to attract Syl, or if a specialized "Honorspren cut" would be necessary.

I really don't believe that Investiture-spren would get caught. Syl obviously would be intelligent enough to not get trapped. As to the others, I suppose they would be sentient enough too not get attracted as well. After all they are probably Splinters.

However you still have a point. How does the attraction function. Spren IMO are cognitive aspects without a physical body that have bound with spiritual energy (Stormligh or during Honor's splintering). I'd say that spren tend to want a physical part. so more like the moth to the flame.


If you've read everything, thank you for your attention and feel free to respond

[Windrunner]

Well the way I read it, the pattern of Stomlight through the gem is what gives the gem it's power. So the patterns aren't a result of a fabrial, but a necessity for one to be made. Navani says that the emotion bracelet is made of ten fabrials working together which can be read either way, as part of a whole, or each detecting an emotion so you can see all of what they're feeling. It makes sense to me that fabrials would be able to be created that work with other fabrials to create a certain affect. It's mostly speculation, but presumably Soulcasting something complex works the same way, requiring the invocation of multiple Essences to create something that isn't one of the Ten Essences.

I don't think that the setting plays any role in keeping the spren held. Shallan's fabrial had no spren held within, as it had no permanent gemstone, and it ceased to function when damaged so it couldn't have been a loss of spren that is to blame. I think you and I view fabrials a little different. The way I see it, Shallan's Soulcaster not having a spren isn't because it is older and better. In my opinion it's because since it requires a person to function, there is no need for spren to provide a cognitive aspect to control the power or to provide a connection to Honor presumably required to utilize Stormlight. A person has both those things in far greater capacity then a spren. That's why spren fabrials are also so constrained, able to do one specific thing, a spren's cognitive aspect can only handle one task at a time.

Perhaps Shardblades and Plate are fabrials, but I prefer to think of them as spontaneously created fabrials when a person has become a Radiant. It doesn't make sense to me that they would create their own Shards. Though admittedly this is more based off of gut feeling then anything else. The biggest evidence I have is that no one in the past apparently knew how to make fabrials according to Dalinar's vision. Also, the Radiants are quite happy to invite Dalinar to "try out" to become one of them which they wouldn't do if there was a shortage of them. Both these points can be reasoned around, but I really feel like the Plate and Blade were personal items to the Radiant, and not things that were just passed around.

Also, can you imagine a Soother and/or Rioter with an emotion fabrial? The result would be frighteningly devastating.

[Satsuoni]

I believe the holder does not have any effect. As to Shallan's broken Soulcaster. So far, we have not seen any working Soulcasting-fabrial.

OK
I still think that soulcaster fabrial is, in fact a setting, just powered by gemstones. Not sure about modern one. One thing though -the setting definitely channels the power (see painknife, and half-shard shields), so it is not completely inert.

And uncut stones don't attract spren. So they are not fabrials. I'll come to your distcintion between old and modern fabrials, Satsuoni

Good question: how can you capture a spren? Without physical aspect, it's difficult to conceive that. Again, I don't think the setting plays a role in this. The question is related to another: how is it that Stormlight is captured in gems? And this time it's also uncut stones, which will capture less Stormlight than cut ones.
I imagine it like there is mirrors on the insides of the gems which will reflect the Light. Normal glass always bends the Light and reflects some of it. Mirrors reflect much more. Remember that gems leak Stormlight and will grow dun over the weeks.
With cut stones we have much more surface to reflect the Light, so it captures more.

Spren are essentially Stormlight so it would work in a similar way for them.

Makes sense. That is why the gems are cut, after all - to maximize the internal reflections, increasing sparkle

Only that it is captured definitively, perhaps due the additional cognitive aspect somehow.
I kind of disagree with this idea. I don't think all spren have much of cognitive aspect. I am starting to agree that spren are splinters, some created during the Honor's life (like Returned in the case of Endowment, the Honorspren, etc), some later when he died and the shard's body was splintered (most of the common spren). I think each spren carries part of his aspect, but not all have or carry the cognitive aspect, or to be more precise, cognitive connection (not much of it anyways).

I oppose your idea of old fabrials Concerning Soulcasters, see aboce. Shardplate and Shardblades are Invested objects, IMO. It has been confirmed for Shardblades:
WOB:
As Shardplate is also said to be given by the Almighty I say those are Invested objects as well. In my terminology, they are invested by a Primary Investiture (directly from Shard to object), as in opposition to filled metalminds for example which are invested by the human (Secondary Investiture).
Well, then you know that they are Invested, but you don't know if the normal fabrials are, likewise, Invested. Maybe Honor gave a splinter of himself and bound it in the metal of the armor and blades (Primary, IYT), but as humans, we can only bind in gemstones (Secondary, IYT), so we can't recreate them. Maybe Syl can inhabit Kaladins spear and make it into a Shardspear

(IYT -in your terms)


I really don't believe that Investiture-spren would get caught. Syl obviously would be intelligent enough to not get trapped. As to the others, I suppose they would be sentient enough too not get attracted as well. After all they are probably Splinters.
Unless gems work like black holes. You know, it is weird - many people wear jewelry in Roshar - cut stones, with stormlight inside for the glow, so why don't any such cuts attract spren? I imagine wearing a bracer of horrible agony is both unpleasant and noticeable...

Windrunner:

I don't think that the setting plays any role in keeping the spren held. Shallan's fabrial had no spren held within, as it had no permanent gemstone, and it ceased to function when damaged so it couldn't have been a loss of spren that is to blame. I think you and I view fabrials a little different. The way I see it, Shallan's Soulcaster not having a spren isn't because it is older and better. In my opinion it's because since it requires a person to function, there is no need for spren to provide a cognitive aspect to control the power or to provide a connection to Honor presumably required to utilize Stormlight. A person has both those things in far greater capacity then a spren. That's why spren fabrials are also so constrained, able to do one specific thing, a spren's cognitive aspect can only handle one task at a time.

The question is then, what is a soulcaster, and how it is different from a fixed soulcaster? If a human can use Stormlight without the thing (I am going to assume that is not so, for now), why use it? For that matter, why, then, wouldn't the servant who used it before be unable to use it again? (Well, he may have been unwilling. But why? "I am the only one who can use the thing, and your souls are mine" would have served him better, whatever his motives). So there is something in the setting that directs the power properly. As I have mentioned before, maybe not a spen, but a kind of circuitry that connects to the human mind and directs the power.

Also, can you imagine a Soother and/or Rioter with an emotion fabrial? The result would be frighteningly devastating.
BTW, always wondered -can a Soother soothe himself? Not sure if it was mentioned or not.
Also, you still don't know whose emotions you read.
Also, a weird idea: a) you need power of a shard to use Allomancy. metals are just a gateway.
stormlight may be the power of the shard.
Result: Allomancer on Roshar may need to use infused gems in addition to eating metals.
Unlikely result : by swallowing them whole

[Telcontar]

First, let me say that I enjoy this discussion, you both have very good and developped ideas, this is how we advance in these forums. *thumbs up*

Well the way I read it, the pattern of Stomlight through the gem is what gives the gem it's power. So the patterns aren't a result of a fabrial, but a necessity for one to be made. Navani says that the emotion bracelet is made of ten fabrials working together which can be read either way, as part of a whole, or each detecting an emotion so you can see all of what they're feeling. It makes sense to me that fabrials would be able to be created that work with other fabrials to create a certain affect. It's mostly speculation, but presumably Soulcasting something complex works the same way, requiring the invocation of multiple Essences to create something that isn't one of the Ten Essences.

It's the second way of reading. Each fabrial detects an emotion. See the different pictures on Navani's second page here. there is ten gems which each detect another emotion. For example "man betrayed by a close friend" triggers anger, sadness and surprise. So the bracelet is the 'machine' made out of ten fabrials.
Didn't you point out the limited capacities of any fabrial? (sorry if I'm mistaken) Fabrials do but one thing. This only feeds my belief that Soulcasters aren't fabrials. But this is my personal belief. Well, actually by considering it while I write, I remember that Shallan once thought about the normal Soulcasters which were often limited to one (?) Essence. Which would fit far better in the fabrial-concept. What Soulcasters (ardents) do most is creating food or barracks, turning things to stone, or to air/dust, always Casting one simple Essence. Anyway, the Ghostblood Soulcaster could very well be fake.
So I'd say there is Soulcaster-fabrials after all.

The setting
I'd say we have to distinguish the setting that only holds gems in place and parts of the machine. the pain-knives would be part of the machine. After all you probably have to touch a person with the machine somehow, the knives pierce cloth or even leather and permit the fabrial to take effect in a human body. It's like you channel the effect into something. A heat-fabrial can just give off heat. A spanreed moves the attached machine. The detection-fabrials just glow. But a feeling would need to have its effect in a body.
The setting would need to have an effect on something important (gem-type, cut, Stormlight-pattern, spren captuered). It might influence the Stormlight pattern. I'm not sure about that.

Blade and Plate
I still say they have been given to the Radiants by Honor. I posted my thoughts about it some time ago, but noone seemed interested in them (yes, you answered, Windrunner)
I honestly don't know if fabrials are invested objects though. I defined Investiture as the transfer of Power of creation from Shard or human to subject or object. (The definition could be terribly wrong of course) For Blade and Plate, I think that Honor gave some tiny part of himself to create them. It seems to be important that the Power sticks to the object. But maybe that's only the case of Primary Investiture.
Anyway, go for Shardspears!

Only that it is captured definitively, perhaps due the additional cognitive aspect somehow.
I kind of disagree with this idea. I don't think all spren have much of cognitive aspect. I am starting to agree that spren are splinters, some created during the Honor's life (like Returned in the case of Endowment, the Honorspren, etc), some later when he died and the shard's body was splintered (most of the common spren). I think each spren carries part of his aspect, but not all have or carry the cognitive aspect, or to be more precise, cognitive connection (not much of it anyways).

Of course, they don't have MUCH of a cognitive aspect. They are cognitive aspects of some pretty stupid stuff, like rain, wind or emotion. But as everything has a cognitive aspect, they must have one. Only that it is limited to a rough awareness of 'I am wind' or 'I am pain'. Does this help?

Unless gems work like black holes. You know, it is weird - many people wear jewelry in Roshar - cut stones, with stormlight inside for the glow, so why don't any such cuts attract spren? I imagine wearing a bracer of horrible agony is both unpleasant and noticeable...

Maybe they didn't get the right cut? There must be thousand of possibilities, as Navani pointed out. It might be sufficient that the cut is slightly different. And still, I think fabrials have at least be near spren to attract them. I'd say that the cognitive aspect of the spren plays a role in it. The spren IMO wants a physical aspect back.

[Satsuoni]

Well, actually by considering it while I write, I remember that Shallan once thought about the normal Soulcasters which were often limited to one (?) Essence.

Jasnah really did have a functioning Soulcaster. And a powerful one too. Nine out of ten Soulcasters were capable of a few limited transformations: creating water or grain from stone; forming bland, single-roomed rock buildings out of air or cloth. A greater one, like Jasnah’s, could effectuate any transformation. Literally turn any substance into any other one.

Not simple Essences, but a way of transformation too, it seems. (Only make bread, only make domes, etc)

They are cognitive aspects of some pretty stupid stuff, like rain, wind or emotion. But as everything has a cognitive aspect, they must have one. Only that it is limited to a rough awareness of 'I am wind' or 'I am pain'.
Well, the cognitive aspect of the glass seemed quite talkative and smart enough, when in Shadesmar, so I am of a mind that a) everything has a cognitive aspect b ) not everything is properly connected to its cognitive aspect. So in case of Syl, the Nahel bond used the connection of a human to bypass the faulty connection of a spren, restoring sentience. In return, spren gives increased spiritual connection that allows Surgebinding (like you have mentioned above, joining in the spiritual aspect).
The spren IMO wants a physical aspect back.
But what was its physical aspect originally, to want it back? If the Honor was like Ati or Leras, his physical aspect was mist or Stormlight-like substance. Why would it want a gem? (Even if gems were like metals to Ruin, why would it want a fixed/restrained form)?
OK, for now. I'll edit in some more ideas later.

Edit1: Since spren seem to be feeding/ materializing from stormlight, it may be argued that Stormlight IS their physical form, that is captured in stones in the same way the usual stormlight is, with different spren correlating to different wavelengths of Stormlight, demanding different cuts and gems for different kinds of Spren. Then, to capture a spren, you'd need it to touch/enter the stone, which for many kinds of spren is easy enough.
Also:
For Blade and Plate, I think that Honor gave some tiny part of himself to create them.
Well, if we accept that other spren are bits and pieces of Honor after splintering, "giving a part of himself" will hold true for other fabrials as well (reformulation of my theory above)

Edit2: We know that plates are almost alive, that they grow from Stormlight, that they can become invisible (or disappear into Spiritual Realm, not sure what happens to that helmet in the vision). Maybe they are a kind of spren (rather than fabrial), just a very specific kind, given by Honor himself for the specific reason of protecting Radiants.

Edited by Satsuoni, 22 April 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[Telcontar]

Thanks for the quote!

That sounds indeed much more like a 'normal' fabrial to me.

But what was its physical aspect originally, to want it back? If the Honor was like Ati or Leras, his physical aspect was mist or Stormlight-like substance. Why would it want a gem? (Even if gems were like metals to Ruin, why would it want a fixed/restrained form)?

They want their original physical aspect back. The one of the cognitive aspect before it was bound by Honor-energy. You see, in my understanding spren are cognitive aspects that were freed during a change of something (emotion, fire, creation, music) and bound to Honor-energy during his splintering. It's the awareness of the spren again. "I was a piece of wood" When other pieces of wood are burned those cognitive aspects are freed as well. The spren detects those aspects and is drawn to the origin of it, hoping to find a new piece of wood.

Why would it want a gem?
I think that is the art in creating fabrials. Find the way to trick spren into gems by cutting them in a way, that spren mistake the gem for something different.


And Shardplate is far too physical to be a spren IMO.

[Windrunner]

I don't know that a spren is aware enough to want a physical aspect. The reason I think that a spren brings a cognitive aspect is that having enough of one aspect makes you have a shadow on the other two. So even though a spren is made of physical power, it will be shadowed in the cognitive realm, even more strongly, then it appears in the physical realm. So even though it isn't much cognitive energy, it's more then the gemstone on it's own has so it allows the power to be channeled.

I'm not sure I agree with the way you explain spren, Telcontar. I think that once a piece of wood burned, the cognitive aspects would be split among the new components, the gases and ash created in the burning, or whatever other products that are created. Also I'm not sure what you mean by binding to Honor's energy, that would be Stormlight correct? And spren appear in places with no Stormlight. Also I don't think it works well with emotions. That would mean that a human was shooting off parts of it's cognitive aspect every time a human felt an emotion.

I'd say that fabrials are invested objects in the same way that metalminds are. To use your term, it would be a secondary investiture, a human using spiritual energy on something else. Did I get that right?

[Telcontar]

I'm not sure I agree with the way you explain spren, Telcontar. I think that once a piece of wood burned, the cognitive aspects would be split among the new components, the gases and ash created in the burning, or whatever other products that are created.

only that the wood is gone. and the cognitive aspect of gas and ash would be another cognitive aspect. Of gas and ash. The part that takes himself for a piece of wood would be gone. Even if it's split. After all, if you'd put the pieces back together, you wouldn't get back the piece of wood.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by binding to Honor's energy, that would be Stormlight correct? And spren appear in places with no Stormlight.

Actually I meant Honor's energy. I converted. I now believe in the spren-were-created-when-Honor-was-splintered-theory.
Stormlight is only what Honor put into the Origin/Highstorms willingly before he splintered to make Surgebinding work. Then, when he splintered, his energy washed all over Roshar except for Shinovar, which was sheltered by the mountains.
Since then, no spren would have been created anymore. So the spren we see are the same old ones since Honor's splintering. That's why they can appear in places that are covered from Stormlight, like indoors, because they are free to go where they want.

Also I don't think it works well with emotions. That would mean that a human was shooting off parts of it's cognitive aspect every time a human felt an emotion.

Nothing works well with emotions, I agree I say (to stay in line with my theory, but I'm not that convinced of it either, just so that you know) that whenever your emotions change, the cognitive aspect of the emotion - not the one of the human - is freed. Or some similar process.

I'd say that fabrials are invested objects in the same way that metalminds are. To use your term, it would be a secondary investiture, a human using spiritual energy on something else. Did I get that right?

You got it right. My only problem with that is that humans are not really responsible for the transfer of spiritual energy. the spiritual energy (ie the spren) comes from somewhere around instead. But I may be wrong either on my definition of Investiture or in that fabrials are different...