42 replies to this topic

[Windrunner]

So one of the things I've been wondering about lately is how Shards interact and relate to one another within the cosmere, since there have been very few interactions we have witnessed, other then the special case of Ruin and Preservation. I've had a couple of ideas about it.

One thing that has always struck me as odd is that Brandon said that Ruin and Preservation are the only Shards with directly opposing intents. It seems odd to me that there would only be one pair out of all the 16 Shards. And then I got an idea. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Brandon has never refuted that all Shards are paired, just that they all have an opposite. So if they are all paired, then what defines the pairs? I'm going to fall back to Ruin and Preservation again. Yes they were opposites, but when Sazed used them together he came to a realization. They are complements too. They were two halves of the same power, and they belonged together. Now, if we accept this idea that complements, not opposites, are what's important in Shard pairs, then patterns become clear. Devotion and Dominion are one for certain. The way I look at it, it is the central conflict between Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth, unity by love, or unity by force. I also think Endowment and Cultivation are a pair. They seem like two sides of a coin to me, either giving something what it needs, or guiding it through growth so it can get what it needs on it's own.

Now you may ask, if there are Shard pairs, why aren't Endowment and Cultivation on the same world? Brandon has said that Ruin and Preservation were together because opposites attract. But all the other Shard pairs aren't opposites, just complements, so they don't necessarily have to have arrived on the same world.

Another idea about Shards and their interaction. The idea behind the balance magic Feruchemy has fascinated me, and I tried to answer the some questions about it here. Anyway the basic idea that I have about balance magic, which fits with the aforementioned theory is that the Shard's intents both are represented in the a balance magic, although the way I believe it to work in Feruchemy may be wrong. In order for a balance magic to form, the Shards have to be complements, and work together, (not consciously) to create it. That's why on Sel there is a third balance magic, with just two Shards. That is also the reason there aren't like seven separate magic systems on Roshar, just the three that are there. Odium, Honor, and Cultivation aren't complements.

Another, much more murky idea I've had has to do with intents. I wonder if perhaps Shards can somehow affect other Shards using their intent. That is why Odium didn't instantly destroy Honor, and instead abided by the rules of the Oathpact until the Heralds broke them. (I have another theory on this to be posted tomorrow) Odium had not choice because, for lack of a better term, Honor was "using" his intent on Odium. That is also possibly how Odium defeated both Devotion and Dominion. He "used" Odium on them, and got them to weaken each other by fighting. Then he swooped in for the kill.

I realize that last idea was out there, I'm not even sure I like it yet. What does everyone else think of my ideas in general?

Edited by Windrunner, 10 March 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[Odium's_Shard]

Another idea about Shards and their interaction. The idea behind the balance magic Feruchemy has fascinated me, and I tried to answer the some questions about it here. Anyway the basic idea that I have about balance magic, which fits with the aforementioned theory is that the Shard's intents both are represented in the a balance magic, although the way I believe it to work in Feruchemy may be wrong. In order for a balance magic to form, the Shards have to be complements, and work together, (not consciously) to create it. That's why on Sel there is a third balance magic, with just two Shards. That is also the reason there aren't like seven separate magic systems on Roshar, just the three that are there. Odium, Honor, and Cultivation aren't complements

I like this bit, I feel it very helpfully demonstrates why there aren't more than three magical systems, and also, in my opinion, makes me wonder whether it is going to be Endowment travelling to Roshar to save the day, as opposed just to Kaladin's awesomeness alone.

It would be a path I could see Brandon pursuing, if not just for it to be unsuspected. However I cannot see how it would fit in without having a 'deus ex machina' feel, and I doubt Brandon would resort to that, well, ever.

[Aiken Frost]

Uhm, I like it very much. You should choose a flowery name for this theory so people can put it in their signatures.

About Endowment being a pair with Cultivation, seems legit. Doesn't we have information that Endowment is fairly recently arrived to... Naltis? The Warbraker world?

[Tulir]

I think someone had a theory that because Awakening is only like 200-500years old(I don't remember)(We know this from Hoid), Endowment has only recently arrived on Nalthis.

[Chaos]

This theory is certainly plausible, but we need to know more to say for sure. For example, it is perfectly possible that a Shard doesn't have a pair. However, when I tried to categorize Shards in this way, I did pair Endowment and Cultivation, so that makes sense to me.

One thing you should think about is how Shard-Complements deal with different focuses. Ruin and Preservation share a focus, and are the quintessential example of Shard-Complements. Under this theory, should we expect that Surgebinding, Voidbinding (assuming this is Odium's magic, of course), and Cultivation's magic to have separate focuses? It would be logical if Shards can only share magics if they share the same focus. However, I asked Brandon if Preservation and Endowment went to a planet, could there be new magics, and he said it is possible. So that's a problem. We do eventually need a theory that describes why Shards can share focuses, and if they do, which Shards can share focuses.

That said, I like this explanation the best why there aren't seven magics on Roshar.

I think someone had a theory that because Awakening is only like 200-500years old(I don't remember)(We know this from Hoid), Endowment has only recently arrived on Nalthis.

Yeah, I think that was a theory, not a confirmed fact. It's a good theory, however.

EDIT: I just came up with a wacky idea about that focus problem. I'll try to post it this weekend.

Edited by Chaos, 08 March 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Odium's_Shard]

I think that to solve your problem about Brandon saying that Preservation-Endowment I have a handful of solutions:

• Brandon was unsure of the exact focus at the time of asking, as we saw when he was asked about Aona/Devotion, he might not have had the exact answer.
• Endowment and Preservation DO share a focus or have a similar focus. Explained later.
• Focus isn't important for balance magics, just Intents (ie positive/negative, Preservation and Endowment are both the 'positive' end of their complements).
• Balance magics are formed in a different way than we expect. For example, how did Feruchemy exactly come about?

For the second point, it might be that the focus of Preservation isn't metal, etc. It might be instead something to do with its Intent, or its Effect (on the things it creates/touches/alters).

For the third point, what I mean is that if the Intents are similar, or opposite, then a balance can be formed. Windrunner pointed this out in her original post by saying that some complementary pairs aren't opposites, they just work together. Maybe be similar for a Preservation/Endowment fusion.

For the fourth point, balance magics might not be formed between complements, just between specific Shards, where it make sense. For example, in between Preservation, that which maintains, and Ruin, that which destroys, come a balance magic, Feruchemy, that destroys (storing) and then preserves (the store itself [ie coppermind]) and well as helping to maintain/destroy (the release) as the balanced output.

In a way, as well, Endowment and Preservation could be seen as opposites, if not complements. It is difficult to Maintain something if you just Give it away, and equally difficult to Give it if it hasn't been Maintained.

Hope it helped.

[Windrunner]

This theory is certainly plausible, but we need to know more to say for sure. For example, it is perfectly possible that a Shard doesn't have a pair. However, when I tried to categorize Shards in this way, I did pair Endowment and Cultivation, so that makes sense to me.

One thing you should think about is how Shard-Complements deal with different focuses. Ruin and Preservation share a focus, and are the quintessential example of Shard-Complements. Under this theory, should we expect that Surgebinding, Voidbinding (assuming this is Odium's magic, of course), and Cultivation's magic to have separate focuses? It would be logical if Shards can only share magics if they share the same focus. However, I asked Brandon if Preservation and Endowment went to a planet, could there be new magics, and he said it is possible. So that's a problem. We do eventually need a theory that describes why Shards can share focuses, and if they do, which Shards can share focuses.

EDIT: I just came up with a wacky idea about that focus problem. I'll try to post it this weekend.

Funnily enough the Endowment recently arrived on Nalthis theory is also my own, I need to update that opening post with a better timeline though. The new magic system bit you brought up is a problem Chaos. I do have one potential solution though. Brandon has said that magic is formed through interactions between the Shard and the world it is on. I think that the physical aspect of a magic system is probably determined by the planet it originated on. What powers are granted and how they are focused may also be affected by the Shardworld. So on this hypothetical Shardworld Preservation and Endowment meet on, the conditions could be completely different causing different physical, and cognitive components, as well as entirely new powers. I don't think Preservation and Endowment would form a balence magic, but if Preservation went to Nalthis, and Allomancy occurred, who says it wouldn't be fueled by color, or you wouldn't have to say out loud what power you wish to use. And if Endowment went to Scadrial, couldn't his/her focus shift to metal? Also, Cultivation, Odium, and Honor are all on Roshar, which I believe determines the physical aspect, and maybe the focus, so they could all end up using the same one. We need to see Voidbinding and Cutivation's magic (Old Magic?) before trying to figure out anything more.

The role the Shardworld plays in determining magic is extremely mysterious. I had one idea that a planet with a large quantity of something, like metal or gemstones, would have that thing as a focus, but that might be a little elementary. Odium's_Shard also has a couple of other possibilities. I'll keep an eye out for your focus theory Chaos, and hope it fits with this. Thanks for such positive feedback everyone, if anyone's interested they should keep an eye out for another theory I'll be posting about how I think the overarching cosmere story fits together. Oh, and Aikan Frost, how does the Shard-Complements Theory sound? I liked the way Chaos used it in his post.

Edited by Windrunner, 08 March 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[Chaos]

Funnily enough the Endowment recently arrived on Nalthis theory is also my own, I need to update that opening post with a better timeline though. The new magic system bit you brought up is a problem Chaos. I do have one potential solution though. Brandon has said that magic is formed through interactions between the Shard and the world it is on. I think that the physical aspect of a magic system is probably determined by the planet it originated on. What powers are granted and how they are focused may also be affected by the Shardworld. So on this hypothetical Shardworld Preservation and Endowment meet on, the conditions could be completely different causing different physical, and cognitive components, as well as entirely new powers. I don't think Preservation and Endowment would form a balence magic, but if Preservation went to Nalthis, and Allomancy occurred, who says it wouldn't be fueled by color, or you wouldn't have to say out loud what power you wish to use. And if Endowment went to Scadrial, couldn't his/her focus shift to metal? Also, Cultivation, Odium, and Honor are all on Roshar, which I believe determines the physical aspect, and maybe the focus, so they could all end up using the same one. We need to see Voidbinding and Cutivation's magic (Old Magic?) before trying to figure out anything more.

The role the Shardworld plays in determining magic is extremely mysterious. I had one idea that a planet with a large quantity of something, like metal or gemstones, would have that thing as a focus, but that might be a little elementary. Odium's_Shard also has a couple of other possibilities. I'll keep an eye out for your focus theory Chaos, and hope it fits with this. Thanks for such positive feedback everyone, if anyone's interested they should keep an eye out for another theory I'll be posting about how I think the overarching cosmere story fits together. Oh, and Aikan Frost, how does the Shard-Complements Theory sound? I liked the way Chaos used it in his post.

Dude... holy crap. You just described the theory that I was going to post this weekend! The Shardworld must have some effect on the magic. After all, everything has a Spiritual aspect, so an entire planet surely has a huge one, which must have some sort of effect. Technically I thought Brandon said the magic was a combination of the Shards and interactions between the Realms, not the world specifically, but I'll need to look it up.

So, wow. What did you do to get telepathy, and how can I get it?

[Windrunner]

Dude... holy crap. You just described the theory that I was going to post this weekend! The Shardworld must have some effect on the magic. After all, everything has a Spiritual aspect, so an entire planet surely has a huge one, which must have some sort of effect. Technically I thought Brandon said the magic was a combination of the Shards and interactions between the Realms, not the world specifically, but I'll need to look it up.

So, wow. What did you do to get telepathy, and how can I get it?

Wow, that's crazy! Either I tapped a whole lot of connection and got you to e-mail me your theory and forget about it, or I read your mind through those Hemalurgic spikes all you admins have, just like Harmony! Or we're both just awesome, but I guess that goes without saying

Oh and I found the quote we were both right.

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.
Hero of Ages Q&A 2

I love this database link thing! Anyway it's the Realmatic interactions of the Shardworlds.

[Chaos]

Holy crap, that's awesome. I really don't think anyone has read that "Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for" correctly until just now. (If someone has, please correct me on this) We always focused on the "Realmatic interactions" part.

Okay, so. This changes everything, guys...

Unless, you know, everyone already figured this out and I just totally missed this.

EDIT:

Oh, and Aikan Frost, how does the Shard-Complements Theory sound? I liked the way Chaos used it in his post.

I am nothing if not a dude who likes fancy, impressive sounding theory names

Edited by Chaos, 09 March 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[Lantern13]

Ooooo. This isn't exactly on topic, but I decided to post it anyway.
I kinda like this part of the last BS quote

though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used.

Unless he's referring to how Vin was able to burn the mists (which it seems like he's not), I'd be really interested to see how the spiritual or cognitive or any other "interpretation" of allomancy works (along with the other magic systems, for that matter).

Edited by Lantern13, 09 March 2012 - 02:40 AM.

[Aaradel]

I'm thinking about Colormancy, Flowerchemy, and Paintallurgy.

[Dros]

So let me see if I have this right...the genetics of the people on each planet effects how they interpret a Shard's magic and that, in turn, along with the qualities inherent in the cognitive and spiritual realms of a planet, effects what is possible with that particular Shard's magic?

[Odium's_Shard]

This all makes sense! It just... allow me to peruse my fancy vocabulary thesaurus for one moment...

Ok, back. I want to post this in a fuller form that a simple comment, so here goes. I am going to argue what I will refer to as the 'fuel system' of a Shard. Bear with it, I have a feeling about this one!

Firstly, you mentioned (in Windrunner's post):

So on this hypothetical Shardworld Preservation and Endowment meet on, the conditions could be completely different causing different physical, and cognitive components, as well as entirely new powers.

The first emphasis: conditions. Surely it would make sense for a Shard, a power of creation itself, to be conservative. It cannot afford to be otherwise. By conservative I mean, adjusts to what it has. So, Ruin and Preservation land (or travel to, unsure at this moment) on a Shardworld with excessive metallic deposits. Windrunner points this out:

I had one idea that a planet with a large quantity of something, like metal or gemstones, would have that thing as a focus,

So, they focus on the metal. However, this doesn't seem to work when another Shard, who is accustomed to a different focus, is moved to a Shardworld on which their focus doesn't exist. How do their magic systems give access to the mortal inhabitants of the world? How does it work now?

Well, it is my belief that they incorporate their Intent into the excess 'fuel' in order to shift focuses. However, I also feel that this is determined by the 'conditions', as I pointed out, and also b their previous adaptation. So, for example, Endowment moves to Scadrial. A system would then arise, not necessarily a balance magic, that incorporates both colour and metal into it.

So, a Shard's power could be compared to fuel. It will run on whatever's available, however has to make compensations for the change. Blindness to metals, for one, on Preservation and Ruin's standpoint. Endowment may lose the ability of the Command in order to exchange it for the selectivity of metal combinations.

However, one thing bugs me about the entire thing that I can't get a handle on. What happens to the 'mystical number'? I don't know what it is for Nalthis/Endowment. But for Scadrial/Harmony it is 16. How would they combine? Would it be averaged, so (say Endowment's number is 10), Endowment lands on Scadrial, new magic system thrown up operates around ([16+10]/2)= 13.

Any thoughts? I'd appreciate them.

EDIT: Needs improvement, at some point.

Edited by Odium's_Shard, 09 March 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[Connerjade]

I am pretty sure that 16 was preservation's choice. I assume that the other numbers were also based on the shards own decision. I think I agree with the overall concept that the shard uses whatever it finds, though I assume that there are materials that are too base to be used as fuel. Or maybe it haas something to do with an inherent spiritual charge in a variety of objects. For example, metal and colors both contain a significant amount of spiritual weight and therefore, if the planet has a significant amount of the material, they are an optionfor a shard to use.

[Odium's_Shard]

I agree that dirt would not be a suitable ingestive for an Allomancer, nor do I recommend spearing somebody with Allomantic potential with a spike of chalk.

EDIT: Can't spell.

Edited by Odium's_Shard, 09 March 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[Windrunner]

Hmm, interesting ideas Odium's_Shard, I'll have to keep thinking about them. I don't know that every magic system has mystical numbers though. I don't think AonDor does. However, you mentioned the Heightenings, and I've always wondered if there might be 16 of those as well, just no one has ever amassed enough Breath to get there. I could be off base though. Also, I'm pretty sure Preservation didn't pick 16, because Shards don't design the magic systems. They can alter them some, like Sazed did to snapping, but I'm fairly certain the whole 16 metals is part of the structure of Allomancy. If I'm remembering right Preservation actually had to remove two metals from the table when he created aitum and malatium mistings. He simplly used 16 as his sign, because it was his magic system.

So I had a crazy realization today. There is one example of a Shardworld affecting it's magic system that we completely overlooked. Sel, and AonDor. The Physical aspect has a heavy influence on the cognitive aspect/focus of AonDor, in the Aon shape. This definitely proves that Shards and Shardworlds interact, it's just really visible in this example. I can't prove anything about Nathis and color, and Scadrial and metal, but I am certain gemstones are more abundant on Roshar, because they occur inside of all the native animals. I'm sure that the reason for other parts of magic systems would become clear if we had more details of the Shardworlds. Also this Sel example proves that these interactions are constantly changing too, because when the Physical aspect of Sel changed, the magic system did so too. I can't believe I missed such an obvious connection before.

[Aaradel]

I wonder if the writer of the Ars Arcanum(s) is aware of all this, or how it affects our concepts of world hopping.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that a magic user's powers work off-planet they same way they would on their homeworld with maybe a power reduction at most, it would be too weird to see everyone's powers switch focus everytime they visit a new world.

[Windrunner]

No, I definitely agree with you. However, I think if a Shard left it's world then powers and focuses would start shifting on the magic users.

Edited by Windrunner, 09 March 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[Aiken Frost]

Windrunner, maybe the focus got fixed when the magic system was first created with the Shards arriving in the planets. After that, it might not change again, no matter what happens.

Another idea: remember that in a interview, Brandon Sanderson said that the shards had some freedom of choice to which planet they where going to, when Adonalsium shattered, but not complete choice? Maybe it have something to do with it.