62 replies to this topic

[discipleofhoid]

This theory draws heavily on the Ars Arcanum from the Alloy of Law. For now I am putting those parts of this theory in spoiler boxs to avoid grumpy Brandonites. I will remove the spoiler box after the book is released. * Spoiler Boxes have been removed.

Theory Statement:
Hemalurgy can transfer any Investiture -

Explanation of Investiture

Investiture is the term that the AofL Ars Arcanum is using for a magic system or power. There may be more to it but that is how it is being used in this theory.


Reasoning behind theory:
1. In all cases Investiture is genetic

• You must be from the right planet/area of the planet to access the Investiture.
• Only those with Arelon blood can become Elantrians
• Only people from Nathis can give away breath etc.
• Only those with noble blood become Allomancers.

2. All of the Investitures we have seen but two(Aons, Feruchemy) demonstrably require you to act in line with the intent of the shard to gain initial access to the Investiture.

• Allomancers -snap when they are Preserving something(usually their own life).
• Feruchemists -we don’t know anything about the snapping/activation process.
• Elantrians -while not confirmed it is suspected that they must be Devoted to something.
• Awakeners must be Endowed with the power by others.
• Surgebinders must demonstrate sub-attributes of Honor to attract a spren.

3. Hemalurgy does not require a person to have fulfilled the intent requirement of the Investiture they are gaining to gain access to an investiture. This is replaced with the Intent of Ruin.

• An Inquisitor never has to act to preserve something to snap. The power just works.

4.Hemalurgy does not require a person to have fulfilled the genetic requirement to gain access to an investiture.

• Those born without Allomantic or Feruchemical abilities can gain it with a spike.

5.The author in the Ars Arcanum does not seem to separate the metallic arts from other Investiture as much as we seem to.

6. Investiture is a Spiritual Attribute.

• There is a Feruchemical power that can store Investiture. This Feruchemical power is noted as an Investiture affecting the Spiritual in the Ars Arcanum.
• Speaking of allomancy the essay in the AofL Ars Arcanum says

  The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb

7.Hemalurgy takes a part of a persons Spiritweb and transfers it to another person.

• From the Ars Archanum in AofL

  Though many throughout history have maligned it as an "evil" art, none of the Investitures are actually evil. At its core, Hemalurgy deals with the removing of abilities --or attributes-- from one person and bestowing them on another. It is primarily concerned with things of the spiritual realm and is of the greatest interest to me. If one of these three arts is of great interest to the Cosmere is is this one. I think there are great possibilities for its use.

Given the points above this should allow any Investiture to be moved from one person of any genetic background to another of any other genetic background. The focus requirements would still apply however. You would need to know the Aons to use elantrian type powers, or the commands to awaken etc.

*Edited for clarity

Edited by discipleofhoid, 10 November 2011 - 10:30 AM.

[darniil]

I can't argue one way or another about this theory, but I like what I've read so far. (Particularly #5. That's a very good point.)

Plus, this theory makes hemalurgy tons more dangerous. I like that. That could lead to some seriously fun conflicts to read about in future books.

[Lord Of Nothing]

I wonder if that would be the haemalurgic power of atium alloys in some way...

No real reason, but...

[darniil]

A similar thought occurred to me, too.

Allomantic uses of the metals seem pretty basic. Straightforward. Predictable.

Feruchemical uses of those same metals syncs up with the allomantic uses at time, but at other times they make a sharp detour. (Fortune? Really?)

We don't even know what most of the higher metals do hemalurgically. And considering how complex that art it, each metal could steal different parts of a Spiritweb depending on where it was used on the "donor".

And, of course that's not even taking into account atium (or lerasium) hemalurgic spikes (and their alloys) like you mentioned, LoN.

[discipleofhoid]

So I was looking through the reddit interview and found this quote

They are all related to a kind of "Spiritual DNA" that one gets from their heritage on a specific planet. However, there are ways around that.(Hemalurgy, for example, 'staples' a piece of someone else's soul to your own, and creates a work around to give you access to magic you shouldn't have.

I think this pretty much confirms that Hemalurgy can pull from any magic system. Can anyone find an objection to this?

If not, I guess this isn't a theory but a fact.

[Soother]

Not sure if it supports your argument directly or not, but I'm pretty sure there are still a few metals that we do not know the hemalurgical properties of. It might be plausible that these metals take from other magic systems, or we may find there are other undiscovered metals that are used for that. Unless Brandon Sanderson has said contrary to this, it might be that there are even more allomantically active metals we are still not aware of.

[dj26792]

we know there are 16 metals and the God metals, because we've been told, and also because 16 is a significant number in the cosmere, the only way I can see this theory working, would be through the use of Atium, but being able to do it with Atium is very plausible considering we've been told it can steal any allomantic or feruchemical investiture depending on how its used, I'm sure if hemalurgy can steal other investitures it would be through atium

[Lord Of Nothing]

I suppose something along the lines of:
Atium steals everything.
Atium alloyed with one of the allomantic metals can steal any power from a specific shard, but you need less atium to make a spike of given capacity, which is why it's worth not just using atium for everything.

[discipleofhoid]

we know there are 16 metals and the God metals, because we've been told, and also because 16 is a significant number in the cosmere, the only way I can see this theory working, would be through the use of Atium, but being able to do it with Atium is very plausible considering we've been told it can steal any allomantic or feruchemical investiture depending on how its used, I'm sure if hemalurgy can steal other investitures it would be through atium

There are 6 of the higher metals that we do not know what they do in Hemalurgy.

There are 16 Atium alloys that we don't know anything about their Hemalurgic properties.

There are 16 Lerasium alloys that we know nothing about.

And we do not know what a Lerasium spike does either. Considering the power of Atium in Allomancy I would expect that Larasium would be fairly potent in hemalurgy.

I would say that over all we have only seen the smallest sliver of what is possible with hemalurgy.


*edited for grammar

Edited by discipleofhoid, 06 November 2011 - 09:21 PM.

[Wispsy]

would lerasium work? being like the body of preservation? used in hemalurgy?

if lerasium did work then could other shards body (or whatever it is :/) be used to make hemalurgic spikes too ?

[CrazyRioter]

would lerasium work? being like the body of preservation? used in hemalurgy?

if lerasium did work then could other shards body (or whatever it is :/) be used to make hemalurgic spikes too ?

well atium works in Allomancy, so I don't see why lerasium wouldn't work in hemalurgy.

[Wispsy]

so if they got hold of some tears of edgli (supposing they are same thing but for endowment) reckon they could burn them too and do something weird?

[darniil]

My guess is no, since the Tears are plants, not metals.

(And now, due to a potentially different wording, I have the Major-General's Song from The Pirates of Penzance running through my head. >.< )

[Yados]

Well if Hemalurgy can't steal the tears, it can probably steal Breaths. Which is a huge wrench thrown in that world's ecosystem since almost all power/economy is based on willingness.

With a Hemalurgic Spike, you could end a Returned with one prick, stealing the Huge Breath they need to live (and healing youself of any ailment in the process).

You could do the same to a lifeless... but not as interesting. You could probably also steal all the breaths you wanted from an Awakener (or anyone else who lives on that world, accrewing Breaths via force rather than commerce).

The only system I can think of that wouldn't be undone by Hemalurgy would be that from Sel, where the power is stored by the land and accessed by the humans (through the Aons) rather than held within like Feruchemy, Allomancy, Surgebinding, and Awakening/Returned.

Just a thought.

Edited by Yados, 08 November 2011 - 10:56 AM.

[Soother]

I would guess Hemalurgy would give the power to use breath and Command, but wouldn't take the breath from someone, in the same way that anyone can swallow metal, but only an allomancer or someone with a hemalurgic spike granting that form of allomancy can burn that metal.

[Yados]

Yeah, I realized that a moment after leaving the computer.

[discipleofhoid]

Awakening is going to have interesting interactions with hemalurgy. I am still working out how I think that would work. But it seems to me that while hemalurgy has to do with an external force transferring parts of a Spiritweb. Awakening from what I can tell has to do with the endowment, or intentional and willing transfer of parts of your own Spiritweb to another person or thing. If this is the case then hemalurgy should be able to transfer breath - not just the ability to use breath.

To clarify my point a little, everyone on Nalthis has an Investiture: this investiture includes the innate ability to transfer their investiture to another person. That investiture is Breath - thus by this theory it would be transferable by hemalurgy.

Edited by discipleofhoid, 08 November 2011 - 12:10 PM.

[Yados]

Awakening is going to have interesting interactions with hemalurgy. I am still working out how I think that would work. But it seems to me that while hemalurgy has to do with an external force transferring parts of a Spiritweb. Awakening from what I can tell has to do with the endowment, or intentional and willing transfer of parts of your own Spiritweb to another person or thing. If this is the case then hemalurgy should be able to transfer breath - not just the ability to use breath.

To clarify my point a little, everyone on Nalthis has an Investiture: this investiture includes the innate ability to transfer their investiture to another person. That investiture is Breath - thus by this theory it would be transferable by hemalurgy.

Well if that's true, reapply all the stuff I said before.

Is there going to be a giant Crisis on Infinite Earths deal to close out the Shardworld books or is it going to happen naturally in some book about Hoid/SS?

[Soother]

I would guess it wouldn't be as simple as you spike the breath out of them. You might just get the breath they were born with. The question lies with someone not of endowment being given a breath. Would you be able to manipulate or gift that breath to another, or would you need a hemalurgical spike to make it work?

[discipleofhoid]

I would guess it wouldn't be as simple as you spike the breath out of them. You might just get the breath they were born with. The question lies with someone not of endowment being given a breath. Would you be able to manipulate or gift that breath to another, or would you need a hemalurgical spike to make it work?

One thing to keep in mind here is that breath is not analogous to a mistborn's metal. The metal is consumed when using the powers. Breath is not. What is consumed is color.

If what I said above about how awakening would work is correct, then breath is simply a portion of the Spirit web giving you a stronger connection to Endowment - much like a Mistborn's stronger connection to Preservation.

If that is the case then the reason that the heightenings work is because with more breath your Spiritweb has a stronger connection to Endowment.

It would follow then that just like a Mistborn's stronger connection to Preservation can be transferred by a hemalurgic spike a 3rd or 4th heightening Awakeners entire connection to Endowment could be transferred by a hemalurgic spike.

So when you spike them you will not get their color but I think you could with the right bindpoint and metal transfer all of the breaths a person has.